1.300.000 Iraqis dead since 2003 ?!

New Zealand seems like a better choice.

Super Jamie said:

It's much nicer here. The only things we have to worry about are our public transport systems being on time, our ailing public health system not having enough hospital beds, and our Prime Minister selling out all our primary industries to China behind our backs. Oh, and mandatory internet censorship.

Would "here" be Canada? I hope not, because an ailing public health system and free welfare don't seem to mix very well... But I don't use public transport so I wouldn't mind that part.

Wait, you mean the government can censor whatever they like that's on the internet? Screw that!

Breadrobber said:

Would "here" be Canada?

Profile For Super Jamie
Location: Brisbane, Australia

We have free welfare here too, which I think needs to be alot tougher to get but that's not what this thread is about.

And yes, our moronic new Minister for Communications thinks he can fix the tubes.

Breadrobber said:

Wait, you mean the government can censor whatever they like that's on the internet? Screw that!

Yeah! We all need a Black Market, it's mandatory for humans' well being! Actually, can you imagine the riots because the US would censor porn? Goddamn.

Well you get mad props for being Australian, but why exactly does the government employ internet censorship?

Uh... Who honestly gives a fuck? Not part of my life.

Breadrobber said:

Well you get mad props for being Australian, but why exactly does the government employ internet censorship?

"For the children".

Realistically, because our PM is a right-wing faker who played his cards right to get in and is doing a great job of ruining the country while the opposition is in a bit of a rut in regards to decent leadership.

Our Minister for Communications displays little to no understanding of the policies he dictates, sweeps negative and inconclusive test results under the rug and blatantly ignores loud continual backlash from professional and public sectors in regards to mandatory filtering.

Honestly Australia is good, but Scandanavian countries seem better. High standard of living, hot chicks (tho we have them too, arguably ours are better), fast internet, political parties that advocate piracy and extreme metal music everywhere. It's just so fucking cold!

Damn it, I hated George W. Bush before it was cool.

Anyone else remember the TV show "That's my Bush"?

Yeah, I was thinking about that show the other day. Didn't it disappear after 9/11? I haven't heard anything about it ever since.

Snarboo said:
So we have a body count, but do we know exactly how they died? Do the articles in question distinguish between combatants and civilians? Do they list how they died and who killed them?

I'm not saying 1.3 million people dead isn't an atrocity, but I don't think we shot or bombed all of those people directly. While we are responsible for what happens in Iraq, most of the violence carried out on Iraqis is caused by other Iraqis or insurgent forces as I understand it.

I'm pretty sure we all know they were not all shot down by Marines or bombed by American weapons. So? The things is that you did invade their country and kill a huge deal directly, did weaken an already damaged culture causing tremendous damage to their technological infrastructure, opened the doors for strife by destroying their sovereign government, and used torture as a means of social subjugation. In such a context it is nearly impossible to account in what way many of those people died. That near impossibility is yet another point of responsibility regarding those 1.3 million dead people.

Breadrobber said:

I'm moving to Australia to get away from this country before idiots tear it apart 10 years from now.

You won't like it down here - too many left-wing commie sympathisers, UK-english spelling, only a handful of TV channels, slow internet ouside the big cities and mobs of kangaroos that specialise in gang-raping Americans.

It dissapoints me that even here, there are still retards who try and defend Bush, or compare Obama to him.

1.3 million dead, and all they can think of is petty political bullshit and right-wing crackery.

And no, Iraq was not a 'shithole' that would end up with 1.3 million dead reguardless of what the US did. That has got to be the most disgusting, pig-fucking ignorant statement I have heard in awhile, and I've been keeping tabs on the birther movement.

jesus fucking christ.

Scet said:

Maybe from our perspective, but I bet his administration, the military and white supremacists think it was great.

Well...if you go by scraping the bottom of the eponymous barrel, you'll find fond supporters of Mussolini, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc. which will often cite reasons such as "But [he] created jobs, built roads and schools, decreased public debt....", quite similar to how there are still Georgios Papadopoulos sympathizers here in Greece (military dictator 1967-1974).

They too cite the aforementioned reasons as "proof" that he was, all in all, a "good man" that "saved the country from communism", but surprise surprise, most sympathizers turn out to be people that personally benefitted, however indirectly and in depth of time from his regime.

They can range from simple right-wing street thugs, policemen, torturers, agents, people who snitched others as "subeversive", people who got themselves or their sons appointed in a public position during the regime (and many kept them afterwards), to people who benefited from a "career boost" by being "on the right side" when the shit hit the fan etc., and a considerable proportion are just brainwashed idiots that didn't even benefit personally in the most indirect way yet go off their way defending the regime.

Many Bush supporters seem to fall in the last category, by keeping the appropriate proportions between the two phenomena of course.

udderdude said:

And no, Iraq was not a 'shithole' that would end up with 1.3 million dead reguardless of what the US did. That has got to be the most disgusting, pig-fucking ignorant statement I have heard in awhile, and I've been keeping tabs on the birther movement

It reminds me of the excuses children often make up after e.g. torturing and gutting a cat or another small animal "But it was going to die anyway/it was weak/it did not deserve to live" etc. just like the Nazi children are taught in this "educational" short (5:42):

Those 1,3000,000 were probably all homophobes anyway, the world is better without them. Also Christian fundamentalism appears to be very rife in the US military so i hope they took a few with them.

Also the king of Saudi is probably as bad as Saddam, but we're not at war with him because he sells us oil.

deathbringer said:

Also the king of Saudi is probably as bad as Saddam, but we're not at war with him because he sells us oil.

Sad isn't it? As "righteous" as one may think the actions of his government are, they are determined by nothing more than crude-cut business interests. Of course, governments will go out of their way to persuade people that they are acting on noble principles like "bringing democracy", "removing bloody dictators", "eradicating terrorism and WMD" etc., as openly admitting "We're just trying to find new markets for Halliburton and Black Water" wouldn't quite cut it...

Just as, some years ago, a certain guy with a moustache persuaded his people that they're fighting for the "Greater Germany", "the Aryan Race" and "against Bolschevism". Surely, if he had told them "You're fighting so that German industral giants like Krupp and BASH can keep selling their steel and chemicals (and I can also make a buck or two in the process)", it wouldn't quite have had the same effect on the masses.

Or how a certain Pope, centuries ago, persuaded a mass of brutish, unkempt and unclean thugs to "free the Holy Lands in the name of Faith and Jesus Christ". Again, openly telling them "we just need some cannon fodder so that the State of the Church can expand its overseas territories" wouldn't sound as persuasive.

udderdude said:

It dissapoints me that even here, there are still retards who try and defend Bush, or compare Obama to him.

1.3 million dead, and all they can think of is petty political bullshit and right-wing crackery.

And no, Iraq was not a 'shithole' that would end up with 1.3 million dead reguardless of what the US did. That has got to be the most disgusting, pig-fucking ignorant statement I have heard in awhile, and I've been keeping tabs on the birther movement.

jesus fucking christ.

Nice name-calling. I'd debate with you, but I won't waste my breath on someone who can't keep his anger to a decent level.

Maes said:

They can range from simple right-wing street thugs, policemen, torturers, agents, people who snitched others as "subeversive", people who got themselves or their sons appointed in a public position during the regime (and many kept them afterwards), to people who benefited from a "career boost" by being "on the right side" when the shit hit the fan etc., and a considerable proportion are just brainwashed idiots that didn't even benefit personally in the most indirect way yet go off their way defending the regime.

Many Bush supporters seem to fall in the last category, by keeping the appropriate proportions between the two phenomena of course.

More stereotyping and name calling. And it's even supplemented with ignorance!

PROTIP: I'm right wing because I want a smaller government, less taxes, a powerful military, a capitalistic economy, and my Constitutional freedoms protected. Did Bush deliver on all of those promises? No. But does that make him on the level of Hitler or Stalin? Absolutely not.

Where does the left find you guys? I need whatever they're smoking.

Mr. Freeze said:

smaller government

fucks over the poor

less taxes

fucks over the poor

a powerful military

not necessary unless concerned about penis size

a capitalistic economy

fucks over the poor

Constitutional freedoms protected

liberals want that too; we just want to trade the second amendment for one securing the right to marriage regardless of sexual preference and gender :D

exp(x) said:

liberals want that too; we just want to trade the second amendment for one securing the right to marriage regardless of sexual preference and gender :D

You can't take a freedom away and pretend to protect it, friend. The second amendment is extremely important to our country. Not THE most important (I would say the 1st amendment is), but important noetheless, as are all of the amendments.

Keep in mind that I'm FOR gay marriage. I'm not for adjusting the Constitution.

Mr. Freeze said:

The second amendment is extremely important to our country.

Perhaps it was at one point, but I don't think so anymore.

Mr. Freeze said:

I'm right wing because I want a smaller government, less taxes, a powerful military, a capitalistic economy, and my Constitutional freedoms protected. Did Bush deliver on all of those promises? No. But does that make him on the level of Hitler or Stalin? Absolutely not.

Fine, but someone has to answer for those 1.300.000 dead (and rising). I don't care what Bush or any Bush does to his country, he could even regularly give his fans used Kentucky Fried Chicken oil enemas for all I know.

You can't understand it if you're "on the right side", but if you live in any small country that has the slightest potential of stepping on USA's interests and geopolitical games, even so slightly, and being turned into a bloody pulp by direct or indirect means by their intervention, such figures are just infuriating.

And BTW, I didn't mention Bush or the Republicans specifically, pretty much every US government to date has a history of violent intervention, manipulation and disruption in other countries. And such figures just make the "bullies" stereotype grow.

I would love to stop calling the right wing names, but here's the problem:

Over the last eight years, as a progressive, i have been completely hosed. I've been called unpatriotic, a communist, a marxist, a terrorist-lover, a Saddam lover, you know, all that good stuff, and all because republicans, by and large, are fucking gullible. Republicans still believe that tax cuts for the wealthy are a good idea because the wealthy invest back into the economy, which is nonsense, because people who actually need the money will spend it.

So, here I am, apparently being a terrorist-loving communist, in 2003, trying to say that a war in Iraq is a bad idea because Saddam doesn't have WMDs and that no, he's not just hiding them really well from inspectors, even if he were, he still wasn't a threat to the US because he had absolutely no way of delivering these WMDs to the United States. Not only that, but Saddam's secular government wanted nothing to do with the terrorists, who were religious fundamentalists.

I was a freshman in High School, and I still had enough common sense to understand this. But you know what one of my peers said to me? "Oh, I guess you want a nuclear missile hitting our beaches?"

The Republican party is a twisted institution and a sick farce of representative government. They don't represent the people, they con a small, loud faction to speak up and believe the most psychotic rhetoric that will allow the furthering of an agenda that favors corporations and the wealthy. Republicans do not represent people, but they get a loud minority to serve as their face.

Even since Reagan, people like me have been demonized because progressive agendas as
"evil" and "un-american". I have the same vote as a bush apologist, and a republican, and the same people who called me unpatriotic as they ran my country into the ground. I'd rather label them fools forever than allow them another ounce of power.

'Hurp a durp, we don't need an army, we can just convince the world to fight against human nature and love each other in peace and harmony'. That is exactly why joints and politics don't mix.

I express an unconventional opinion - George W Bush was a good president, he had the right idea, but screwed up the execution - and I get told that I'm an idiot. That's fair enough, but I think it's reasonable to invade a country or two and kill 1.3 million suspected terrorists (not people) if they flew a couple planes into a national monument of sorts, murdering thousands of people in the process and then claim that they have the capacity to slaughter a million more Americans. Are we supposed to sit back and assume that this terrorist cell is incapable of doing more damage? Violence is despicable, I think we can all agree on that, but sometimes you have to stand up and fight to preserve your way of life. Nobody deserves to be killed, but I just can't bring myself to feel bad if there a few million corpses over Baghdad now. The US army was a little overzealous, and everybody is paying the price now, but it was the right thing to do.

Every single one of you should be ready and willing to pick up a rifle if your country was ever threatened. How many Americans would need to die before a war was justified?

I see very few men here.

Visplane Overflow said:

Every single one of you should be ready and willing to pick up a rifle if your country was ever threatened. How many Americans would need to die before a war was justified?

I see very few men here.

I'm joining ROTC just for this purpose. I'll be damned if I don't stand up and fight.

Fiend said:

Over the last eight years, as a progressive, i have been completely hosed. I've been called unpatriotic, a communist, a marxist, a terrorist-lover, a Saddam lover, you know, all that good stuff, and all because republicans, by and large, are fucking gullible.

So rather than taking the high road, you prefer to sink to your opponent's level? No matter the reason, name-calling is name-calling. You need to man up.

Visplane Overflow said:

'Hurp a durp, we don't need an army, we can just convince the world to fight against human nature and love each other in peace and harmony'. That is exactly why joints and politics don't mix.

I express an unconventional opinion - George W Bush was a good president, he had the right idea, but screwed up the execution - and I get told that I'm an idiot. That's fair enough, but I think it's reasonable to invade a country or two and kill 1.3 million suspected terrorists (not people) if they flew a couple planes into a national monument of sorts, murdering thousands of people in the process and then claim that they have the capacity to slaughter a million more Americans. Are we supposed to sit back and assume that this terrorist cell is incapable of doing more damage? Violence is despicable, I think we can all agree on that, but sometimes you have to stand up and fight to preserve your way of life. Nobody deserves to be killed, but I just can't bring myself to feel bad if there a few million corpses over Baghdad now. The US army was a little overzealous, and everybody is paying the price now, but it was the right thing to do.

Every single one of you should be ready and willing to pick up a rifle if your country was ever threatened. How many Americans would need to die before a war was justified?

I see very few men here.

It's nationalistic bullshit like this that makes the world as screwed up as it is. The life of an American is just as valuable as the life of an Iraqi.

Mr. Freeze, your views are not worth debating. If you had anything worth replying to, I would have had more to say than insults. You are a sad, sad example of what's wrong with America today; blindly patriotic, unable to think for yourself, and utterly unable to listen to anything but right-wing mouthpieces. You are a fucking tool.

Visplane Overflow said:

That's fair enough, but I think it's reasonable to invade a country or two and kill 1.3 million suspected terrorists (not people) if they flew a couple planes into a national monument of sorts, murdering thousands of people in the process and then claim that they have the capacity to slaughter a million more Americans.

This statement amuses and frightens me at the same time.

It's obvious why it's amusing....but the frightening thing about it is the knowledge that many -too many- people take it literally and actually feel OK about themselves for believing it.

On the other side, futile and unrelated reasons have been used as the justifications for holocausts and "ethnic cleansing".

What's worse about Visplane's statement, is that it's written as if the victims were sewer rats, fleas or cockroaches, rather than human beings, and thus unworthy of much thought/moral concern. The good old concept of demonization. And again, I can't help but draw parallels with the Nazis here.

I'd actually have more respect for someone who'd openly admit "Yeah, we fucking hate those shit-coloured, subhuman towelhead sand niggers and anyone who even remotely sympathizes with them", instead of trying to justify their killing with rants about "terrorisms" and "WMD" and loose moral values. At least the Nazis did not hesitate to proclaim their beliefs.

udderdude said:

Mr. Freeze, your views are not worth debating. If you had anything worth replying to, I would have had more to say than insults. You are a sad, sad example of what's wrong with America today; blindly patriotic, unable to think for yourself, and utterly unable to listen to anything but right-wing mouthpieces. You are a fucking tool.

You answer my name-calling charges with...more name-calling. Brilliant.

YOU cannot engage in debate on a constructive level, instead running around and screaming "U R IJIT" at the top of your lungs. But I won't call you names. No, instead I'll walk away from this "argument" with the satisfaction that I am not like you.

exp(x) said:

The life of an American is just as valuable as the life of an Iraqi.

If only this was true ;-)

The chance that this thread will end up well is more or less on the par with the value George W. Bush would place on the life of an Iraqi.

Maes, udderdude, and Fiend pretty much said everything that I'd have said, so I'll just leave it at that.

Also, I'd liek to point out that the terms "right-wing", "left-wing", "liberal", and "conservative" have been so misused that I'd hesitate to label anyone (including myself) such things.

Visplane Overflow said:

That's fair enough, but I think it's reasonable to invade a country or two and kill 1.3 million suspected terrorists (not people)

That's just sick and wrong on so many levels. I really hope you don't believe that.