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TimeOfDeath
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I'm glad the docs let her die and didn't get punished for it.

TimeOfRant!

I usually don't see a problem with suicide. How is it any more selfish than when people have kids? Why do people have kids? Because THEY want to have kids, or even worse, they don't want kids but they wanna fuck eachother without a condom or without birth control. How is assisted suicide illegal/immoral and having kids is legal and wonderful? When you have kids, you are forcing someone to exist without their consent, and you are forcing someone to eventually die. The only reason people die is because their parents created them. Why should someone be forced to live? Our race is destined for extinction.

What I'd really like to see in the future is somewhere you can go to end your life painlessly and peacefully, with some exceptions. Like, I don't think it's right for parents to commit suicide. When you have kids, you have a duty to raise your children. But maybe if the kids are over a certain age (20-30+ ?) and consent to their parents' suicide. Also, you'd first have to sign up to end your life and then wait like a year or two or something before the place would actually end your life, just in case you change your mind. Also, it would cost money + maybe they should be forced to do a certain number of hours of community service. Also, maybe the person who wants to die should be in control of their death by pressing a button or something. Also, you'd have to be over a certain age.

MAYBE ONE DAY

Last edited by TimeOfDeath on 10-05-09 at 20:30

10-05-09 20:23 #

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Starke Von Oben
Banned

Posts: 252
Registered: 09-09

TimeOfDeath said:
I'm glad the docs let her die and didn't get punished for it.

TimeOfRant!

I usually don't see a problem with suicide. How is it any more selfish than when people have kids? Why do people have kids? Because THEY want to have kids, or even worse, they don't want kids but they wanna fuck eachother without a condom or without birth control.

Spoken like a true virgin.

How is assisted suicide illegal/immoral and having kids is legal and wonderful? When you have kids, you are forcing someone to exist without their consent, and you are forcing someone to eventually die. The only reason people die is because their parents created them. Why should someone be forced to live? Our race is destined for extinction.

What absolute twaddle. How can you force someone to exist without their consent if they don't even exist in the first place? How can consent be offered to something that doesn't even exist prior to conception?

What I'd really like to see in the future is somewhere you can go to end your life painlessly and peacefully, with some exceptions. Like, I don't think it's right for parents to commit suicide. When you have kids, you have a duty to raise your children. But maybe if the kids are over a certain age (20-30+ ?) and consent to their parents' suicide. Also, you'd first have to sign up to end your life and then wait like a year or two or something before the place would actually end your life, just in case you change your mind. Also, it would cost money + maybe they should be forced to do a certain number of hours of community service. Also, maybe the person who wants to die should be in control of their death by pressing a button or something. Also, you'd have to be over a certain age.

MAYBE ONE DAY

What a revolting Dystopia, it would make a great "movie" I'm sure.

10-06-09 04:15 #

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AndrewB
What's the worst that could happen? A girl is emotionally destroyed? I can live with that.

Posts: 4081
Registered: 05-00

Starke Von Oben said:

Spoken like a true virgin.

Spoken like a sane person is more like it. Condoms and other birth control are just plain good.

What absolute twaddle. How can you force someone to exist without their consent if they don't even exist in the first place? How can consent be offered to something that doesn't even exist prior to conception?

Haven't you heard the phrase "I didn't ask to be born"? Well, it's always true. When you think about it, people are forced to exist, as they retrospectively have no say in the matter. The fact that they didn't exist prior to existing and therefore couldn't exist to in turn be forced to exist... Well, that just seems like semantics to me.

10-06-09 06:09 #

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Csonicgo
This post is probably useless

Posts: 3823
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AndrewB said:
Condoms and other birth control are just plain good.

Oh but you know................. those still have that possiblity that they won't work.

10-06-09 07:17 #

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Starke Von Oben
Banned

Posts: 252
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AndrewB said:
Spoken like a sane person is more like it. Condoms and other birth control are just plain good.

You miss my point. TimeOfDeath's rather childish and ill-informed idea that life only continues on this planet because people can't be bothered to use condoms or birth control is frankly immature in it's outlook. He reads like an emo kid who just picked up a copy of Schopenhauer's "Studies in Pessimism" and skipped to the end.

Regarding "I didn't ask to be born", that's just something we say when we're young and angry.

10-06-09 07:44 #

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TimeOfDeath
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Starke Von Oben said:
You miss my point. TimeOfDeath's rather childish and ill-informed idea that life only continues on this planet because people can't be bothered to use condoms or birth control is frankly immature in it's outlook.

I didn't say that. Also, I don't read. Technically, I'm not a virgin, but I've only done it once and that was 10 years ago. HEH

Obviously an unborn child can't give consent to their existence. But, how many people commit suicide every year? Isn't that somewhat of an indication as to how there are many people who would rather not be alive than be born? What's wrong with letting people die in peace if they'd rather be dead?

I guess you don't like my idea. :(

10-06-09 08:12 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
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Starke Von Oben said:
How can you force someone to exist without their consent if they don't even exist in the first place? How can consent be offered to something that doesn't even exist prior to conception?

How can you rape someone when they are unconscious? How can consent be offered to something that isn't even conscious?

The concept of "better not being born" is ancient, having been passed to us by the Greeks. To quote Aristotle:

Wherefore, thou best and happiest of mankind, if we think those blessed and happy who have departed this life, then it is not only unlawful but even blasphemy to speak any thing that is false or contumelious of them, since they are now changed into a better and more refined nature. And this my opinion is so old, that the original and author of it is utterly unknown; but it hath been derived down to us even from eternity, so established is the truth of it. Besides, thou seest what is so familiar in men's mouths, and hath been for many years a trite expression. What is that, saith he? He answered him: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is more eligible to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing amongst men. At first he would return no answer, but was obstinately silent. At last, when Midas would not give over importuning him, he broke out into these words, though very unwillingly: "Thou seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why dost thou compel me to tell thee those things it is better thou wert ignorant of? For those live the least disturbed who know not their misfortunes; but for men, the best for them is not to be born at all, nor to be made partakers of the most excellent nature; not to be is best for both sexes. This should have the first place in our choice; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can." It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living.

Starke Von Oben said:
Regarding "I didn't ask to be born", that's just something we say when we're young and angry.

Probably because most people who say it with enough conviction don't live till old age :p

Also, it's not just "I wasn't asked" but also "I won't do this to someone else."

Not to say I really take the concept to heart, usually, but I think that to write it off as "childish" without knowing the person who states it well enough, you need to saddle some kind of high horse.

10-06-09 08:53 #

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Starke Von Oben
Banned

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TimeOfDeath said:

I didn't say that. Also, I don't read. Technically, I'm not a virgin, but I've only done it once and that was 10 years ago. HEH

Too much info...

Obviously an unborn child can't give consent to their existence. But, how many people commit suicide every year? Isn't that somewhat of an indication as to how there are many people who would rather not be alive than be born?

Not really, since there are numerous reasons for people committing suicide and not wanting to exist from conception is not the sole reason people do it. I'm not saying there are not clinically depressive people who do so, but they are quite small in number compared to the majority of people. Someone may commit suicide over a financial situation, for example or due to the loss of a loved one. Those not reasons based on the assumption that they began life with an inherent desire to not exist in the first place but on circumstances that have affected their lives.

What's wrong with letting people die in peace if they'd rather be dead?

I guess you don't like my idea. :(

There's nothing wrong with it, in fact I'm of the opinion that suicide is a very brave act contrary to what many people say. The man who can chose the timing of his own death cheats fate.

myk said:

Not to say I really take the concept to heart, usually, but I think that to write it off as "childish" without knowing the person who states it well enough, you need to saddle some kind of high horse.

Declaring an argument as childish is perfectly reasonable and you don't need prior knowledge of someone if their arguments correspond with that. If a racist came on the forum and started declaring the superiority of a certain race, it would be within your right to declare them as racist. You wouldn't assume that we couldn't call them a racist simply because we don't know them on a personal level - all arguments and ideas are perfect candidates for attack, and prior knowledge of the individual counts for nothing.

When TimeOfDeath said, and I quote ". How is assisted suicide illegal/immoral and having kids is legal and wonderful?" then I can clearly write that off as childish nonsense, the sort of half-educated guess-work philosophy you find littered on many an unread online journal.

Reproduction has nothing to do with man-made laws and codes, for it is a biological function and necessity - they very survival of the species is at stake. It is wonderful for it's own sake.

Whether we are doomed to become extinct ultimately is neither here nor there.

10-06-09 09:35 #

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myk
webbed digits

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Starke Von Oben said:
Declaring an argument as childish is perfectly reasonable and you don't need prior knowledge of someone if their arguments correspond with that.

Not if you're mistaken. The less context you have, the more you can be wrong. And here, the validity of a statement like "it's better not to be born" hinges on the existential situation of the person expressing it. If we're aware of the amount of issues people may go through in life, it is perfectly reasonable to separate such a statement from mere childishness. At least in principle.

It would be very nice to be able to "sort out" personalities and the trials of life with a few simple arguments, but it appears that things are not so simple, and we end up with developed disciplines like psychology or sociology and then must apply those to particular cases, to add to the complexity.

If a racist came on the forum and started declaring the superiority of a certain race, it would be within your right to declare them as racist. You wouldn't assume that we couldn't call them a racist simply because we don't know them on a personal level - all arguments and ideas are perfect candidates for attack, and prior knowledge of the individual counts for nothing.

The relation between racist and "superiority of a race" seems pretty straightforward. It's pretty much contained in the definition of the word. The case in question, however, has a much broader term applied to something that is not defined by it in any necessary or obvious way. Additionally, a racist is a hostile or threatening type of individual. It may be that you feel threatened by this vision of "it's better not to be," hence reacting by dismissing it as childish. It may be a mechanism that you have to avoid seeing harrowing aspects of reality.

How much of it is just petulant childishness? How much is genetically ingrained in a person? How much is based on the torment and sorrow in their life?

Reproduction has nothing to do with man-made laws and codes, for it is a biological function and necessity

It's hard to see where that came from but you do sound a bit like someone defending something claimed to be holy, with naturalism as the religion. All cultural phenomena are intrinsically articulated with human biology. Any attempt to separate biology from society is in vain. Any culture has its particular rules and behavior regarding reproduction. Specific legislation in countries affects it in visible ways, helping establish what sexual relations are acceptable or increasing or decreasing reproductivity, among other things. And practically any culture acknowledges the transient, painful and sometimes futile nature of life in many ways, and suicide happens.

10-06-09 10:41 #

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Super Jamie
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It sucks that she selfishly chose to burden her death upon others but in reality to die in a hospital around medical professionals and a clean controlled environment is probably preferable to neighbours (possibly even children) finding her bloated decomposing corpse in her house in a few weeks.

The world is overpopulated enough, if people want to die then let them.

10-06-09 11:55 #

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Nomad
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Long post ahoy!

Super Jamie said:
The world is overpopulated enough, if people want to die then let them.

As morbid as it might be, I actually agree. There is a reason that suicide rates rise in high density populations. It's for the same reason that rats start eating their young in high population densities. It's natural population control.

That doesn't mean I think everyone should kill themselves, however. I think life is very precious, and no I'm not some wacko religious nut. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm about as atheist as they come.

I'm going to quote something from my friends blog that is relevant here:

Ashley said:
[A] concept in Buddhism is the idea of �emptiness.� The world is empty of meaning except that which we give it. It�s kinda like a Rorschach test�you know, those psychology tests where you look at an ink blob and tell the therapist what you see. Well, what you see has NOTHING to do with the blob and EVERYTHING to do with you. :)

You can't place a price on someone's life, whatever the currency. However something that I feel should be universally accepted is that there is a certain miraculous nature of life itself. Some time, somehow inanimate matter became self replicating and life has evolved on this planet to think, feel, and in our cases actually construct and shape our world. In the grand scheme of the universe there is no intrinsic value of life, but in the scope of each of our lives we owe a debt of gratitude to the universe for our existences.

Death is the end. There's no afterlife, no second chances. This fact itself does lend a bit of value to life. We have but one life to live, and I feel it is our duty to live it in an impactful way, to whatever extent. We can change the whole world, or just one person's world--but I think we owe it to the universe to try.

I don't think anyone deserves death, but I am in no place to argue with whether someone else feels they deserve or even embrace death. It just breaks my heart that so many people treat death as some sort of cosmic "get out of jail free card."

Suicide tends to cause more problems than it solves. However, I do think that in some cases it is an acceptable solution. Those cases are rare, and in the scope of this thread I personally do not feel that inability to reproduce is one of those cases. There is much more to life than reproducing. We have the gift to see beyond our genetic predispositions, and should not take that gift for granted.

10-06-09 16:16 #

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Patrick
someone employed to clean and maintain a building

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Super Jamie said:
The world is overpopulated enough, if people want to die then let them.

As cold as this sounds, I agree as well. I'll be the last person to advocate mass murder, but if people want to pull the plug, by all means, they should. Again, I'm cautioning people to make sure they are doing it for the right reasons and have carefully thought it out.

10-06-09 17:04 #

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TimeOfDeath
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Just for the record, I love my parents and I certainly haven't had a hard life the way so many people have. I'm just saying - look at the bare facts. The only reason people die is because they were created by two people who chose to have sex. When someone is born, they will die - everyone knows this, and everyone has a choice to reproduce or not. Procreation is a choice, not a necessity that prevents yourself from dying. I'll bet you a dollar that humanity will eventually become extinct some time in the very distant or not so distant future. But even if humanity manages to exist UNTIL THE END OF TIME: if the continued existence of humanity relies on "looking the other way" when it comes to the immorality of reproduction, is that continued existence worth preserving?

(btw, I don't think I'm better than people who reproduce - I do things that I think are immoral - I think simply existing is immoral)

10-10-09 03:20 #

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Aliotroph?
postCount++

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The continuity of humanity is automatically worth pursuing because it's humans deciding that's the case. Something else that knows us might not think so, but it always will be to us. That's really the nature of life, especially the thinking kind. If we can ever decide something is more worth preserving than humanity it will probably mean we've found some other intelligence. We look at the universe through the lens of our own needs.

I can easily see suicide being the correct action if it saves other people or something else of value. It's not an action most people can take easily or at all. That makes sense. If people killed themselves all the time we wouldn't have lasted long in the days when food was hard to find and children died often anyway.

10-10-09 07:14 #

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Visplane Overflow
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Just by examining the posts here, you can tell who the young members are. I guarantee most of you will eventually reverse your position on this subject.

10-19-09 02:56 #

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exp(x)

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Visplane Overflow said:
Just by examining the posts here, you can tell who the young members are. I guarantee most of you will eventually reverse your position on this subject.

I love how every bullshit conservative asshole uses this argument to defend their positions. Fuck off.

10-19-09 04:06 #

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Super Jamie
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exp(x) said:
I love how every bullshit conservative asshole uses this argument to defend their positions. Fuck off.

Agreed. VPO's comment made me think of this wonderful thread.

10-19-09 04:17 #

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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!

Posts: 15767
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I'd like to see an overlay of his guessed ages vs. the actual ages of the posters. This would truly be an interesting scientific undertaking!

10-19-09 09:17 #

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GreyGhost
a ghost... only grey

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I'd probably be classified as a statistical abberation - over 50 and pro-choice.
Having watched helplessly as senile dementia robbed my father of his short-term memory, cognitive functions, long-term memory, dignity and - almost as an afterthought - his life, I can understand why some people choose to die on their own terms. OTOH - the woman in Hellbent's OP should have sought treatment for depression instead of grabbing a bottle of antifreeze.

10-19-09 14:26 #

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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!

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My mom is over 50, pro-choice, and has a DNR order in her will.

I have to be pro-choice myself because if it weren't for abortions, I'd never be alive to begin with.

10-19-09 17:12 #

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Use3D
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Visplane Overflow said:
Just by examining the posts here, you can tell who the young members are..

Also by examining baseless statements made by people who honestly have no clue how old anyone is.

10-19-09 17:52 #

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Nomad
Senior Member

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Danarchy said:
My mom is over 50, pro-choice, and has a DNR order in her will.

I have to be pro-choice myself because if it weren't for abortions, I'd never be alive to begin with.

Yeah, my grandma is 65 or so now and shares similar beliefs. Although I think she might be against abortion, she does have a DNR request in her will and is pretty adamant about it.

10-19-09 17:59 #

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Super Jamie
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A friend of mine did a nursing degree a while back and came across a doctor who actually has a DNR notice tattooed on his chest. His reasoning was that he's seen too many people come back brain dead or mentally impaired because they were not alive for too long, starving all their important bits of oxygen. If he dies somewhere he doesn't want that happening.

10-19-09 22:51 #

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