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Csonicgo
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From the New York Times: (sorry for the longpaste)

A prominent British medical journal on Tuesday retracted a 1998 research paper that set off a sharp decline in vaccinations in Britain after the paper’s lead author suggested that vaccines could cause autism. The retraction by The Lancet is part of a reassessment that has lasted for years of the scientific methods and financial conflicts of Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who contended that his research showed that the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine may be unsafe.


A British medical panel concluded last week that Dr. Wakefield had been dishonest, violated basic research ethics rules and showed a “callous disregard” for the suffering of children involved in his research. Dr. Richard Horton, editor in chief of The Lancet, said that until that decision, he had no proof that Dr. Wakefield’s 1998 paper was deceptive.

Dr. Wakefield could not be reached for comment.

Dr. Wakefield is part of a small but fervent group of doctors who discourage vaccinations because of a seeming link with autism.

Dr. Wakefield’s paper reported on his examinations of 12 children with chronic intestinal disorders who had a history of normal development followed by severe mental regressions. He speculated that the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine may have caused some sort of chronic intestinal measles infection that in turn damaged the children’s brains. He suggested that the combined vaccine should be split into three separate shots and given over a longer period of time.

But an investigation by a British journalist found financial and scientific conflicts that Dr. Wakefield did not reveal in his paper. For instance, part of the costs of Dr. Wakefield’s research were paid by lawyers for parents seeking to sue vaccine makers for damages. Dr. Wakefield was also found to have patented in 1997 a measles vaccine that would succeed if the combined vaccine were withdrawn or discredited.

After years of investigation, the General Medical Council in Britain concluded that Dr. Wakefield had subjected 11 children to invasive tests like lumbar punctures and colonoscopies that they did not need and for which he did not receive ethical approval.

After Dr. Wakefield’s study, vaccination rates plunged in Britain and the number of measles cases soared.

In the United States, anti-vaccine groups have advanced other theories since then to explain why they think vaccines cause autism. For years, they blamed thimerosal, a vaccine preservative containing mercury. Because of concerns over the preservative, vaccine makers in 2001 largely eliminated thimerosal from routinely administered childhood vaccines.

But this change has had no apparent impact on childhood autism rates. Anti-vaccine groups now suggest that a significant number of children have a cellular disorder whose effects are set off by vaccinations.

With each new theory, parents’ groups have called for research to explore possible links between vaccination and autism. Study after study has failed to show any link, and prominent scientific agencies have concluded that scarce research dollars should be spent investigating other possible causes of autism.


Dr. Wakefield has since resigned.

But it is interesting: how many other excuses can be brought up to discourage vaccination? "shedding"? "disfigurement"? Big Pharma kickbacks? Secret government illuminati conspiracy? Who knows! I'm just glad science is getting the final say this time!

Then again, when there are people that believe in such things as homeopathy and "kinoki foot pads", this retraction may not stop any of the controversy.

Old Post 02-03-10 08:51 #
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fraggle
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We're now facing a measles epidemic because of this prick and the tabloid scaremongering that he stirred up.

Old Post 02-03-10 10:06 #
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GreyGhost
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Which part of "to do good or to do no harm" doesn't Wakefield understand? Best we can hope for is that snake-oil merchant having to justify his actions in a court of law.

Old Post 02-03-10 11:04 #
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TheDarkArchon
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Meanwhile, the media will report on it as if it was never their fault at all.

Old Post 02-03-10 13:30 #
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Hellbent
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i had the MMR vaccine when I was 14; right about that time I suffered some pretty bad mental issues that affected all areas of my life and lasted many years. I also subscribe to homeopathy. I'm not convinced either way, but am suspicious of the vaccine.

Old Post 02-03-10 16:30 #
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Danarchy
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Hellbent said:
i had the MMR vaccine when I was 14; right about that time I suffered some pretty bad mental issues that affected all areas of my life and lasted many years.

Then again, that may have to do with you BEING FOURTEEN. Puberty does all kinds of fucked up things to you.

Also, homeopathy is a bullshit pseudoscience. You can't get a cure by drinking water.

If there were really some kind of big issue with vaccination, then there would be a LOT more fucked up people in the world, considering that in the 80s and 90s at least, the vast majority of children got their shots.

Old Post 02-03-10 16:40 #
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Nomad
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Hellbent said:
I also subscribe to homeopathy.


For serious? If so, you just lost a thousand cool points bro.

Old Post 02-03-10 17:01 #
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Mr. Freeze
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I had the vaccine, and I turned out fine. Your parents have shitty genes or something.

Old Post 02-03-10 17:07 #
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Bank
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Mr. Freeze said:
and I turned out fine.

That is still to be seen, sir.

Old Post 02-03-10 17:15 #
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Csonicgo
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The problem with homeopathy is that stores like Boots are claiming that all alternative medicines - including herbal remedies - are homeopathy. They have also succeeded in convincing people that homeopathy is thus a 3000+ year-old practice, when in reality it's 300 years old and has always been kooky dilutions with water.

I've heard a homeopathy believer speak once about such things as "water memory" and related crap that isn't based on any credible science. and yet, the NHS is wasting money on it, France is ass-deep in it, and America is buying wax sticks and claiming that it cures headaches.

And for fucks sake - when the homeopathic remedy for influenza is a ridiculous dilution of duck liver, I really wonder why people don't think twice when they buy these stupid things.

Old Post 02-03-10 18:06 #
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Snarboo
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Csonicgo said:
I've heard a homeopathy believer speak once about such things as "water memory" and related crap that isn't based on any credible science.
Yeah, that's one of the basic tenets of homeopathy: as you dilute something, the water will "remember" the properties of the material you are diluting. The more dilute the better, too. It's also based on the belief that "like treats like". None of that germ theory nonsense, no no, you treat an illness with a diluted concentration of something that causes the same symptoms. Have you ever looked at the ingredients for a homeopathic sleep aid? It's caffeine.

Probably the most backward medical treatment theory I've heard of.

On subject, I'm glad that this paper has finally been retracted. It doesn't reverse the harm it has caused, but hopefully we can move on from this nonsense. I also hope Autism awareness and acceptance improves. It's not something that can be cured. The best thing a parent can do is love their child for who they are and work with them instead of looking for a cure or blaming something unrelated for their child's condition.

Old Post 02-03-10 18:27 #
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Hellbent
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Mr. Freeze said:
I had the vaccine, and I turned out fine. Your parents have shitty genes or something.
none of my three other siblings had the problems I did.

Old Post 02-03-10 18:53 #
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Nomad
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Snarboo said:
Yeah, that's one of the basic tenets of homeopathy: as you dilute something, the water will "remember" the properties of the material you are diluting. The more dilute the better, too. It's also based on the belief that "like treats like". None of that germ theory nonsense, no no, you treat an illness with a diluted concentration of something that causes the same symptoms. Have you ever looked at the ingredients for a homeopathic sleep aid? It's caffeine.

Probably the most backward medical treatment theory I've heard of.



Not to mention that if all you need to do is dilute the substances in water, what happens when you drink tap water? That water has been in contact with so many different substances that you probably couldn't even count. Including fecal matter, and most likely a lot of toxic material.

Old Post 02-03-10 19:50 #
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Technician
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Nomad said:
Not to mention that if all you need to do is dilute the substances in water, what happens when you drink tap water? That water has been in contact with so many different substances that you probably couldn't even count. Including fecal matter, and most likely a lot of toxic material.
It's the fluoride that kills you.

Old Post 02-03-10 20:32 #
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Csonicgo
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did some googling and found this: http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thr...=20100203221507

"Do you believe in homeopathy?"

Heh. "Believe".

my favorite entry is this one:

According to the principles of homoeopathy, the more you dilute something, the more powerful it becomes.

So, here's a challenge to any homoeopaths out there: I challenge you to a drinking contest. You will drink neat gin, and I will drink gin diluted with 100 parts tonic water. I'll match you pint for pint. The last one standing is the winner. Deal?


EDIT: oh yeah, don't view comments by reader recommended. The first two are dead on then it's nothing but morons.

Old Post 02-03-10 22:16 #
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fraggle
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Hellbent said:
i had the MMR vaccine when I was 14; right about that time I suffered some pretty bad mental issues that affected all areas of my life and lasted many years.

Correlation does not imply causation.


I also subscribe to homeopathy. I'm not convinced either way, but am suspicious of the vaccine.
Why? Have you actually read up on homeopathy, the things it claims, and how utterly ridiculous it is? I'm pretty sure most people who use homeopathic remedies do so out of ignorance.

The basic premises of homeopathy are bunk, and frankly absurd. They fly in the face of all basic scientific knowledge and common sense as well. The idea that the more you dilute something, the more potent it becomes, for example.

Homeopathic remedies use dilutions equivalent to that of a single molecule contained in within a sphere of water the size of the solar system, for example. At this concentration, from the knowledge that we now have of physics and chemistry (that we did not have in the 1700s when homeopathy was started), we can be almost certain that a homeopathic remedy does not contain any of the original "active" ingredient. There is literally no plausible way that it can affect you in any way, because you're drinking water / eating sugar pills.

I'm sure you've taken some homepathic remedies and found them to have helped you in some way. All I'll say is, read up on the placebo effect. It is a subtle and complicated phenomenon.

If it makes you feel any better, I, myself, was also misled by homeopathy: back in my teens I was given homeopathic remedies by my mother and at the time I genuinely believed that they were effective. In a sense, they were effective, because they had the desired effect in making me feel better. But I'm almost certain now that this was simply the result of the placebo effect. Back then I was ignorant of what I was taking and didn't think to question when I was told it was a real medicine.

EDIT: James Randi on homeopathy:

Old Post 02-04-10 00:22 #
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david_a


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The last time that James Randi video was posted we got some really depressing responses :(

Old Post 02-04-10 19:41 #
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myk
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I don't see much that's depressing, just people that, regardless of not taking homeopathy seriously, aren't that much amused at the commercial medical industry or someone acting in a patronizing way with that industry behind him.

Randi pretty much preaches to the choir, and while some may be swayed by his words, these will also sway others to insist on preaching homeopathy's supposed virtues if but to oppose what they see as the preaching of science.

Old Post 02-04-10 22:15 #
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Csonicgo
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preaching of science? Thats a good one.

Old Post 02-05-10 01:23 #
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myk
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It does tend to get through that way to those that aren't convinced. For example, when he tells the audience to get a grip on their seats to avoid falling over from laughing, he's assuming they share much of his view of what is reasonable or understandable. When they don't, they'll likely find it insulting and cease to be open to his arguments.

Old Post 02-05-10 02:01 #
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gggmork
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But 'homeopathy' is nice and profitable which is what really matters.
Maybe if people had an unconditional basic income, there'd be less motive to selfishly con people or do a lot of other evil things often associated with money pursuit. Economics is currently a eat or be eaten jungle.
http://www.google.com/search?client...G=Google+Search

Culture makes people adapt much quicker than slow genetic evolution, so those who don't read/accumulate culture are kind of left behind in the dust and are easier prey to stuff like homeopathy. Someone who believes that must be pretty generally ignorant. Of course there are shitty school systems helping everyone be ignorant though.

Last edited by gggmork on 02-05-10 at 07:51

Old Post 02-05-10 07:42 #
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AndrewB
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I don't give a damn what stupid people do (or don't do) to their own body. If some doctorphobe wants to drink water to cure cancer then that's just Darwin doing his thing. I DO have a problem with parents that give homeopathic treatments to their children who are otherwise incapable of making better decisions. A homeopathic remedy all too often simply replaces the remedy that's actually needed, and therefore, can actually be severely harmful. THIS is why homeopathy is quite wrong and this is what many people fail to understand.

Old Post 02-05-10 13:50 #
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Quasar
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Maybe homeopathy causes autism :P

Old Post 02-05-10 20:14 #
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Belial
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AndrewB said:
I DO have a problem with parents that give [insert harmful things] to their children who are otherwise incapable of making better decisions.

Exactly my problem with religion, genital mutilation and a couple other things.

Old Post 02-05-10 21:42 #
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deathbringer
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uhhhhh

Surprised there's no anti-science goons going on about how this retraction "proves" science doesn't know what it's doing and is flip-flopping.

Unlike the bible which was RIGHT FIRST TIME, of course.

Also lol homeopathy. Apparently if you dilute something 1/100 12 times, there's unlikely to be even a single molecule of the original solution left, you're diluting water with more water!

Old Post 02-08-10 22:15 #
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Quasar
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deathbringer said:
Surprised there's no anti-science goons going on about how this retraction "proves" science doesn't know what it's doing and is flip-flopping.

Unlike the bible which was RIGHT FIRST TIME, of course.

Also lol homeopathy. Apparently if you dilute something 1/100 12 times, there's unlikely to be even a single molecule of the original solution left, you're diluting water with more water!


But the vibrations!

"Vibrations" in homeopathy are quite similar to the emanations from God which alchemists believed rang through all matter in the universe and could be tapped to manipulate reality. Same old shit, new disguise, sort of like creation science vs intelligent design.

Old Post 02-08-10 22:24 #
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Aliotroph?
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I don't get how they account for the molecules coming off the vessels they use to contain an dilute it. That and the air. You'd figure the water would pick up some bad vibes from that. Silly fools.

Old Post 02-09-10 00:42 #
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