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Carnevil
I fail it.


Posts: 1300
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When I get to the point at which I can pay people, I'll officially uncancel it. But I have to be in that position first before this can move forward.

Old Post 02-12-10 16:57 #
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Mr. Freeze
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Carnevil said:
When I get to the point at which I can pay people, I'll officially uncancel it. But I have to be in that position first before this can move forward.


Hmm.

Well, that seems mighty interesting. Especially because your Project Vega blog says the following:

"I am very, very sorry to have to say that I am canceling Project Vega"

Either something is canceled or it isn't. "On hiatus" is the word you're looking for. Seems to *me* that *you* said it was "canceled" for a easy way to get sympathy from us.

Sorry for being blunt, but I call them where I see them.

Old Post 02-12-10 18:48 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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When I wrote that all up, the project *was* canceled, and that has been its status up until recently. It wasn't until then that alternatives were suggested for saving it, one of which I'm considering. I'm not going to change it from "canceled" to "on hiatus" and risk having to then cancel it *again* in the event that I'm unable to get into a position in which I can pay artists. I don't think it's right to get people's hopes up/crush them any more than unfortunately they have been already.

And I think it's ridiculous to think that I'm going to trash something that I've worked my ass off on for more than two years, something that I've wanted to do my whole life, just for sympathy from people who have shown no indication that they would give it (look no farther than this thread).

Old Post 02-13-10 00:07 #
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Ralphis
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Pander to Carnevil or he will throw a temper tantrum.

With that aside, I'd love to lead the design aspect for you. You know, I can be your Romero, man.

Old Post 02-13-10 00:15 #
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Snarboo
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Have you ever considered changing the art style? While making a Quake style FPS is great, why not try something fresh, something that might also be easier to implement? Have you thought about making a game that looks like Tron, that is entirely black and white or comprised solely of primary colors? There's no way you can match a professional design team, so it might be better to scale back and go with an art style that is easier to work with. You already seem to be leaning towards cel shading, so take it one step further and make low polygon models that ooze style.

Just because you are making an FPS doesn't mean your game needs to look traditional. There are a lot of different approaches an indie developer can take with visuals. Take a look at most indie titles, they usually have a retro aesthetic or a charming but simple graphical style. This is often done intentionally, either because it looks cool or because it was easier to work with.

Take a look at Sakari Indie and Foreign Legion. Their game has a simple, almost lego like visual style that accents the gameplay well. They also released the game with only one level initially for $7. They were able to do this because, as a small team, they implemented what they could and focused on tightening it up as much as possible. They then went back and released a huge update for the title, entirely for free. You could never do that as a professional developer.

I bought Foreign Legion because the gameplay and graphics interested me, and the promise of new, free content and a low starting price sweetened the deal. They could have let their game die after the initial release, but they took the initiative and turned it into a well rounded product with further promises of new content such as a full blown cooperative and competitive multiplayer mode. It's the same promise that makes people buy Minecraft in early beta or donate to Dwarf Fortress.

As an indie developer, you have to think outside the box. Consider redesigning Last Bastion drastically, such as making it look like a retro first person Zelda or Quake on a Commodore 64. Always be willing to communicate early and often about your project, be candid, and consider releasing regular betas to build up interest. Farm out your updates to indie gaming sites such as TIG Source, The Indie Games Blog, or Rock, Paper, Shotgun. Your engine also seems like it could be mod friendly, which is a huge way to develop a community for your game. Consider allowing community made maps, missions and even monsters and weapons, then including the best of them with the full product as a bonus to the community.

Your game doesn't have to be as good as modern titles, it doesn't even have to be as polished as Quake or Doom as long as you are delivering an interesting product that people want to play. Play to your strengths and the strengths of indie gaming.

Old Post 02-13-10 01:34 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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Snarboo said:
Have you ever considered changing the art style?

Absolutely! The goal has never been to be a game that looks like Quake. In fact, for awhile I challenged the guys making textures/levels to create an overall look for the game. That never really panned out, but I'm working with another guy on getting the overall look and art style down for the game.


Snarboo said:
Your engine also seems like it could be mod friendly, which is a huge way to develop a community for your game. Consider allowing community made maps, missions and even monsters and weapons, then including the best of them with the full product as a bonus to the community.

Definitely! I certainly love the modding aspect of Doom, and that's something I want to have in Last Bastion as well. Pretty much all of the game data is external - the monster scripts, the object definitions (it's very easy to make new monsters and items), face actions (like doors and stuff), etc., which ends up making it very easy to create mods for.

We also have an editor that's pretty easy to use - it's similar to Doom Builder in a lot of respects. So, right out of the box it's going to be pretty easy to make maps, and you don't have to be a modeler or use some ridiculously complicated unintuitive program to do it.

Old Post 02-13-10 03:50 #
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Abyssalstudios1
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Should I rename the title of this thread to 'Project Vega discussion' or something? Maybe 'Project Vega controversy', or 'P. V. Debate'?

Old Post 02-13-10 03:57 #
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rf`
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printz said:
Trolls don't really survive here at Doomworld.

You've been here long enough to realize that's a total lie. :P

Old Post 02-13-10 05:49 #
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andrewj
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The name also needs rethinking imo, "Last Bastion" sounds very much like a realistic war-themed game.

Old Post 02-13-10 06:23 #
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printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


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rf` said:

You've been here long enough to realize that's a total lie. :P

They only attack deserving people (like trolls trolling trolls). Hardly deranging.


Carnevil said:

We also have an editor that's pretty easy to use - it's similar to Doom Builder in a lot of respects. So, right out of the box it's going to be pretty easy to make maps, and you don't have to be a modeler or use some ridiculously complicated unintuitive program to do it.

Doom Builder? Not Hammer? How do you manage the 3d space, then, when Doom Builder is using a 2d canvas, with the visual mode as effect of that canvas?

Old Post 02-13-10 07:37 #
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Shaikoten
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I dunno, I feel like Carn's trying to paint me as a troll in this thread, when if you really read and pay attention to my posts I'm trying like hell to give him good advice. Hell if I know why, but I don't really want to see the guy wasting his time, and the time of those around him, by making something that ends up being unsaleable shit. I don't hate him, despite what my comic series would suggest.

Am I trolling here? Or "grinding an axe?" Regardless, I'll just stop as my advice isn't appreciated.

Old Post 02-13-10 07:43 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


Posts: 1300
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printz said:

Doom Builder? Not Hammer? How do you manage the 3d space, then, when Doom Builder is using a 2d canvas, with the visual mode as effect of that canvas?


Actually, it's a little like both:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3293/editor.th.png

You outline faces similarly to how you do with sectors.

EDIT: Shai and I had a conversation and I can totally see where he's coming from.

Last edited by Carnevil on 02-13-10 at 10:27

Old Post 02-13-10 08:07 #
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Abyssalstudios1
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Trippy looking editor.

Old Post 02-13-10 23:14 #
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Fisk
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Hell, I'd totally sign up and try to land a spot with your team as a level designer, Carn, if it weren't for the fact that the project is cancelled. The editor looks mighty interesting to play with and I would love to at least try my hand at contributing to some overall "scheme" for the project.

That being said, it doesn't look an awful lot like the project has a whole lot of direction/inspiration as it stands. It seems like you're doing this project just to do it. But hell, the project is in its early stages, so I could understand that much.

Old Post 02-13-10 23:56 #
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Pure Hellspawn
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Ok, I think I am going to express my opinion on this whole Vega issue:

First of all, I saw the YouTube Video.By the looks of the video, Vega appears to have the basics of an engine/game in: Weapons, enemies, switches, controls, etc. This means that effort HAS been put into this project, and that simply abandoning it would cause all the effort to go to waste.

There are two ways of preventing the effort from being wasted:
1: Releasing the source code that's completed to the community. This benefits us in two ways. The first way is that someone might improve the code, potentially making something worthwhile of release.

2: Secondly, people who are new to game programming will be able to study the code and maybe gain some knowledge. Perhaps you could write a tutorial on game programming using this engine and sell it for profit.

Another thing to notice is that canceling a project that was announced might cause people to think "this person is unable to complete stuff, why should we hire him?" Now, independent game developers do not have that issue, but people who work for companies do.


To sum up what I said in one sentence, Don't let it all go to waste.

Old Post 02-14-10 01:38 #
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Gez
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Pure Hellspawn said:
There are two ways of preventing the effort from being wasted:
1: Releasing the source code that's completed to the community. This benefits us in two ways. The first way is that someone might improve the code, potentially making something worthwhile of release.


Okay, I'm all for open-source code, but you sound like a vulture here.
- Vega's problem isn't on the side of the code. It's on the side of art assets. Carnevil seems perfectly willing enough to continue improving the code himself.
- He's also probably more interested in benefiting himself than in benefiting "us". It would make sense, at least.
- Finally, there are thousands upon thousands of open-source projects at different states of completion that interest nobody and are therefore wasted efforts despite their openness. People looking for a 3D engine would probably take a look at Ogre, Irrlicht, or similar.

Old Post 02-14-10 01:59 #
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Pure Hellspawn
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Gez said:

Okay, I'm all for open-source code, but you sound like a vulture here.
- Vega's problem isn't on the side of the code. It's on the side of art assets. Carnevil seems perfectly willing enough to continue improving the code himself.
- He's also probably more interested in benefiting himself than in benefiting "us". It would make sense, at least.
- Finally, there are thousands upon thousands of open-source projects at different states of completion that interest nobody and are therefore wasted efforts despite their openness. People looking for a 3D engine would probably take a look at Ogre, Irrlicht, or similar.




Of course finishing the game and releasing it for cash would be best case scenario. However, that is not possible in all cases; and this is one of them. What I am saying is that he could possibly still benefit.

Just my two cents.

Old Post 02-14-10 02:18 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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Fisk said:
Hell, I'd totally sign up and try to land a spot with your team as a level designer, Carn, if it weren't for the fact that the project is cancelled. The editor looks mighty interesting to play with and I would love to at least try my hand at contributing to some overall "scheme" for the project.

Well, like I said, there's a very good chance that it will be continuing. I think there's a good chance that we're all set as far as mappers go, but the "Help Wanted" page is still up over at the blog, so if you want to check that out, feel free to do so!


Fisk said:
That being said, it doesn't look an awful lot like the project has a whole lot of direction/inspiration as it stands. It seems like you're doing this project just to do it. But hell, the project is in its early stages, so I could understand that much.

Right. You have to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run, etc. I had to get the basic technology off the ground before there can be any gameplay, I have to implement basic gameplay before I can implement more developed gameplay, and I have to implement developed gameplay before I can implement perfected gameplay. Just because it may look like there's not much going on there in terms of gameplay doesn't mean that there isn't a plan/vision for getting there and having it be really solid and polished.


Gez said:
- He's also probably more interested in benefiting himself than in benefiting "us". It would make sense, at least.

Well, I actually think a commercial model is beneficial for everyone. The people who made it can make a living doing it, so they can devote more time and effort into making a much better product. You also get that product without having to sacrifice too much for it (I think paying something like $20 for a good game (Torchlight, for instance) is well worth it). It's really win/win for everyone.

But yeah, Gez hit the nail right on the head with all of his points.

Old Post 02-14-10 04:13 #
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