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geo

What are your opinions of Rage?

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I'm curious what everyone thinks. Are you stoked that there's a new ID game out there? Are you pumped the graphics are fantastic? Are you happy to get vehicle combat? Do you like the thought of smart AI that calculates the best method of attack?

To be honest with you, I'm not impressed. It feels done. Maybe I'll change my opinion about it once I play it. The game has won several E3 awards, but there's plenty of other nomadic desert games out there (Borderlands and New Vegas come to mind).

ID developers brag about how there's multiple clans and each one has a different look, tactics and AI... yeah? What game doesn't? Hope they have better AI than Doom 3.

This game is 5 years too late to be impressive.

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It sucks because it was made after 2000.

Okay, I don't really hold that as a rule, but I can't help but notice that everything I'm interested in playing is pretty darn old. I've been doing some LAN gaming with a friend recently and something he pointed out to me is that the only game I've ever brought that even features models is Homeworld, released late '99.

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geo said:

(Borderlands and New Vegas come to mind)

I'm tired of people comparing Rage to games it only has a thematic semblance to. People don't get their panties in a knot over space station game number 8763726363273663 or fantasy game number 4367236723642376473624672746236237676276. But three games with post apocalyptic wasteland theme. They are all the same and any game that wasn't released first sucks ass and is just ripping off the one that was.

That being said. The videos demonstrating combat so far has not impressed me. The combat doesn't look at all like I expect from an Id game. Doom3 didn't really either. But this one seem to have take a big step towards stupid football-helmet game combat. Some of the aspects like one gun to rule them all, regen health and other horrifying shit has made me weary as wether Rage ultimately will be a disappointment to me. But I'll judge that when I've actually played it.

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How can Rage not be compared to New Vegas? They've got the same publisher and its about roaming around a desert with you a nameless, voiceless protagonist. :-) Of course they are different, but they might still feel the same :-)

And you're right about the football helmet playing public game combat.

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I'm waiting to see if this is the title that'll prove id has totally switched mechanics over to modern day FPS. Doom 3 was slow and hand-holding, but it's a bit of a gray area.

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geo said:

Are you stoked that there's a new ID game out there?

No, IMO id haven't really made anything interesting for years and have just sat back on their reputation as a cool game producing company that, for a long time, just released games thet were increasingly like parodies of what an id game is supposed to look like. Something new from id no longer excites me simply because id are making it. The game needs to prove itself in its own right for me to be excited about it. The id logo on the box is no guarantee of a good game any more.

geo said:

Are you pumped the graphics are fantastic?

No. Good graphics do not make a good game and, quite honestly, I haven't seen anything in the Rage preview material to convince me that Rage graphics are anything better than the current industry standard.

geo said:

Are you happy to get vehicle combat?

No, just no. I have yet to find a driving game that I really enjoy. If I want to have fun driving, I get in my car and drive. Driving games are so removed from the reality and physics of actually driving that it is a totally different skill. The worst offenders have always been the FPS games that allow you to drive. They invariably take FPS controls, physics and whatever and make a complete dog's breakfast of a driving game out of them. No exceptions (that I have encountered).

geo said:

Do you like the thought of smart AI that calculates the best method of attack?

More interesting AI is... well, interesting as an idea but until I see it in action (if I do), I'll hold off judgement. I can't count the number of games that have promised "revolutionary AI" but simply didn't have it.


Technician said:

Doom 3 was slow and hand-holding, but it's a bit of a gray area.

Some may say that the whole of Doom3 was a grey area. ;)

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Enjay said:

More interesting AI is... well, interesting as an idea but until I see it in action (if I do), I'll hold off judgement. I can't count the number of games that have promised "revolutionary AI" but simply didn't have it.

This. Realistic (game) AI has always been this holy grail quest that appears to have been forgotten about in favour of a somewhat more tangible crusade to achieve photorealistic visuals.

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We already know the answer; 99% of the forum's populace will hate it and or compare it to Doom, and bitch about modern gaming. The same that pops up in EVERY game thread. Or anything modern for that matter :D

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Thanks Enjay for giving your thoughts. I enjoyed reading it.

I remember years ago at an E3 where people were blown away by the AI of Bethesda's Oblivion. How an unarmed skeleton would run and grab a weapon from a downed corpse. If there were 3 creatures in an area, they'd watch you fight and learn then adapt.

Well I've played the game maybe 300 hours. I've never once seen it.

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Better AI doesn't necessarily lead to better gameplay. If the AI in any game actually used sensible, military-quality tactics then a lone gunman would be useless against them and it would be zero fun to play such a game. Good AI would work better in a cooperative game so that your side can execute its own military maneuvers - suppression, flanking and the like.

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geo said:

I remember years ago at an E3 where people were blown away by the AI of Bethesda's Oblivion. How an unarmed skeleton would run and grab a weapon from a downed corpse. If there were 3 creatures in an area, they'd watch you fight and learn then adapt.

Well I've played the game maybe 300 hours. I've never once seen it.

I can't say if a skeleton would, but I've seen plenty of humanoid npcs pick up weapons and armor and use them. And they'll do it mid fight as well. Although it doesn't happen very often, they are more likely to just run up and punch you anyway. I think it takes a weird set of circumstances to see it happen. Hardly a selling point anyway.

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Yep I've seen NPCs loot corpses. That's pretty easy to program. Check if there's a corpse in a certain radius and if you've checked the corpse before :-) But only check the corpse if there's no danger in a certain radius :-)

There's a check box for NPCs to determine if they check corpses. Guards will.

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geo said:

How can Rage not be compared to New Vegas? They've got the same publisher and its about roaming around a desert with you a nameless, voiceless protagonist. :-) Of course they are different, but they might still feel the same :-)

No they won't feel the same because the similarities are merely cosmetic.

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Yep, I'm just going off their cosmetic look, since I haven't played the game, but the look didn't win me over. Kind of like every futuristic shooter used to be brown up until last year.

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While I haven't seen anything that just screams awesome to me from what I've seen of it. I honestly would like to see it kick ass. I believe id can do it.

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So is Rage out now, or something?

Honestly, I feel the same way about it now as I did when it was first announced: "eh".

geo said:

I remember years ago at an E3 where people were blown away by the AI of Bethesda's Oblivion. How an unarmed skeleton would run and grab a weapon from a downed corpse. If there were 3 creatures in an area, they'd watch you fight and learn then adapt.

Well I've played the game maybe 300 hours. I've never once seen it.

Someone told me once that they ended up scrapping like half the AI in Oblivion before it shipped for whatever reason. Maybe the X-Box couldn't handle it or something.

I finally got around to playing Oblivion, and honestly after about 3 hours of play I'm not terribly impressed. It fails to immerse me or interest me in the way Morrowind did. Maybe if they had actually made Cyrodil a tropical Roman province like they said it was in Morrowind, it would have made it more interesting. But no, it's just generic fantasy boringness.

Still, I remain hopeful about Skyrim.

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If I want to have fun driving, I get in my car and drive.


Uhh... what? If you find getting stuck in traffic or getting caught behind some asshole going 25 MPH when the speed limit's 45 MPH more exciting than say screaming down the wrong lane on a highway at 90 MPH while surfing on the hood of your car in Just Cause 2, then dear god there's really something wrong with you.

Are you pumped the graphics are fantastic?


Right now they don't look fantastic. They're pretty much on par with MW2 so there's really nothing special about them at this point.

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Danarchy said:

I finally got around to playing Oblivion, and honestly after about 3 hours of play I'm not terribly impressed. It fails to immerse me or interest me in the way Morrowind did. Maybe if they had actually made Cyrodil a tropical Roman province like they said it was in Morrowind, it would have made it more interesting. But no, it's just generic fantasy boringness.

If you do nothing in oblivion, at least give the db and thieves guild questlines a shot. For what the game as a whole lacks, those 2 questlines alone almost make up for it.

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Rage looks pretty damn generic from what I've seen, but I'll reserve my judgement for when I actually play it.

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Danarchy said:

Someone told me once that they ended up scrapping like half the AI in Oblivion before it shipped for whatever reason. Maybe the X-Box couldn't handle it or something.


The Radiant AI worked TOO well. What happened was everyone would go about their daily schedules for a day or two...and then the food in their homes ran out. So, everyone started stealing food instead, even the Imperial Legionnaires. After the food ran out, everyone killed each other over the remaining food. Apparently, it wasn't uncommon to find entire towns repeatedly wiped out.

Danarchy said:

I finally got around to playing Oblivion, and honestly after about 3 hours of play I'm not terribly impressed. It fails to immerse me or interest me in the way Morrowind did. Maybe if they had actually made Cyrodil a tropical Roman province like they said it was in Morrowind, it would have made it more interesting. But no, it's just generic fantasy boringness.


Holy shit! Legit Oblivion criticism from a Morrowind fan that doesn't attack nonsensical shit (lack of spears, fast travel, etc.)?! Stop the goddamn presses.

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Craigs said:

Uhh... what? If you find getting stuck in traffic or getting caught behind some asshole going 25 MPH when the speed limit's 45 MPH more exciting than say screaming down the wrong lane on a highway at 90 MPH while surfing on the hood of your car in Just Cause 2, then dear god there's really something wrong with you.

Well, I've always enjoyed driving - even "dull" journeys - but if I'm just going to work, I jump in my daily car and that may happen. (However, given that I live in a rural area, it doesn't happen that often.) If I want to have fun driving, I jump in my fun car and make sure that I don't go anywhere near somewhere like that (reasonably easy in Northern Scotland), or I go to a track day and buzz around a race circuit. :)

And given that no driving game I have played feels anything like driving, going the wrong way down a highway while hood-surfing wouldn't make me feel as if I was doing it anyway so I'd rather play a game type that I prefer. It still wouldn't be real, but at least I'd be enjoying doing it. ;)

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The Radiant AI worked TOO well. What happened was everyone would go about their daily schedules for a day or two...and then the food in their homes ran out. So, everyone started stealing food instead, even the Imperial Legionnaires. After the food ran out, everyone killed each other over the remaining food. Apparently, it wasn't uncommon to find entire towns repeatedly wiped out.


Which would have been fucking awesome. Any mods that cause this?

But no, it's just generic fantasy boringness.

That's what I loved about the shivering isles expansion. It at least felt somewhat original and added some fairly interesting weapons too (dawn fang/dusk fang is the first to come to mind). But yeah, the regular Oblivion just felt too normal compared to Morrowind. Wolves, bears, bandits, mountain lions? Boooring. Give me more monsters like Nix Hounds, Guars, and Netchs. When I ran into a mudcrab for the first time in Morrowind my first though was "Holy shit what the fuck is this thing??"
Oblivion: Oh. a giant crab. Wake me up when I get to a high enough level to run into Dreughs and trolls.

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Quast said:

If you do nothing in oblivion, at least give the db and thieves guild questlines a shot. For what the game as a whole lacks, those 2 questlines alone almost make up for it.

I ended up making an acrobat character, and thus wanted to join the thieves' guild, but I couldn't fucking find it. There were just people going "oh, the thieves' guild? That's just a myth! OR IS IT!?" with not a fucking clue how to find it.

Mr. Freeze said:

The Radiant AI worked TOO well. What happened was everyone would go about their daily schedules for a day or two...and then the food in their homes ran out. So, everyone started stealing food instead, even the Imperial Legionnaires. After the food ran out, everyone killed each other over the remaining food. Apparently, it wasn't uncommon to find entire towns repeatedly wiped out.

That's pretty awesome. I think I heard something like that before. You'd think they could just figure out a way to replenish food stores or something.


Holy shit! Legit Oblivion criticism from a Morrowind fan that doesn't attack nonsensical shit (lack of spears, fast travel, etc.)?! Stop the goddamn presses.

As long as gameplay is solid, I don't care what they change when it comes to that. I've become kind of a huge fan of Elder Scrolls lore, though, so the fact that they bunged up Cyrodil is my main gripe. Especially the fact they they made the guards generic fantasy soldiers, whereas the guards in Morrowind were actually wearing Late Roman-style armor that made sense. I have no idea why they would change this.

Craigs said:

That's what I loved about the shivering isles expansion. It at least felt somewhat original and added some fairly interesting weapons too (dawn fang/dusk fang is the first to come to mind). But yeah, the regular Oblivion just felt too normal compared to Morrowind. Wolves, bears, bandits, mountain lions? Boooring. Give me more monsters like Nix Hounds, Guars, and Netchs. When I ran into a mudcrab for the first time in Morrowind my first though was "Holy shit what the fuck is this thing??"
Oblivion: Oh. a giant crab. Wake me up when I get to a high enough level to run into Dreughs and trolls.

Yeah, I heard great things about Shivering Isles. All the Morrowind fans on /tg/ loved it apparently. Unfortunately, I havent gotten to that part of the game and don't know if I should bother slogging through the interim.

The flora and fauna in Morrowind really made the game what it is, at least as far as first impressions go (after you delve into the lore, it gets a lot more unique, though). The fact that major fauna seemed to be dominated by both large insects (striders, kwama, and nix-hounds) or bipedal reptiles (guar, alit, and kagouti) along with the giant mushrooms being as common as trees (if not moreso in some areas) made it seem like it had its own interesting evolution-based ecosystem. Also, fucking netches. Love those guys. Cliff racers can eat a dick, though, and thanks to St. Jiub they've all since been exterminated. :P

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Uh that thing about the food is insane. I'm gonna have to youtube it. I know people have eat cycles... but I'd think food would regenerate and if it didn't there's shops with regenerating items... but if you'd kill the merchants, then they can't get the food.

Strange.

As for the thieves guild. Its kind of like the Mafia. The Mafia exists, but how do you join it? Its not like you can ask around. Oh and if I remember correctly, you can join the thieves guild in the Imperial City, but I think you need to be recommended.

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I ended up making an acrobat character, and thus wanted to join the thieves' guild, but I couldn't fucking find it. There were just people going "oh, the thieves' guild? That's just a myth! OR IS IT!?" with not a fucking clue how to find it.


Believe it or not you had to go to jail first. Easiest way was to just steal something right in front of a guard.

You had to do something similar for the Dark Brotherhood too. Basically kill an innocent and the next time you slept some faggot would show up and invite you.

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I enjoyed the Dark Brotherhood quests and the twist. As for the original Morrowind expansion Tribunal that had the Dark Brotherhood. I hated it, some uber assassin would be right there when you wake up and kill you unless there's a guard in the area or you installed the expansion at level 10+.

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geo said:

I enjoyed the Dark Brotherhood quests and the twist. As for the original Morrowind expansion Tribunal that had the Dark Brotherhood. I hated it, some uber assassin would be right there when you wake up and kill you unless there's a guard in the area or you installed the expansion at level 10+.


I had no trouble killing the assassin. Hell, I looked forward to it since killing him meant getting some of the best armor in the game. Now the leader of the DB on the other hand, he was one tough son of a bitch. First time I tried to take him on he knocked me out with his first shot, then killed me with his second.

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Craigs said:

Believe it or not you had to go to jail first. Easiest way was to just steal something right in front of a guard.

You had to do something similar for the Dark Brotherhood too. Basically kill an innocent and the next time you slept some faggot would show up and invite you.

Yeah, but jail sucks. The simplest way to join the thieves guild it to give money to a beggar, like simplisia the slow in the imperial city market. Then ask her about the grey fox.

Danarchy said:

That's pretty awesome. I think I heard something like that before. You'd think they could just figure out a way to replenish food stores or something.

Well, stuff respawns after a couple of in game days. So you can go into an inn or something and steal or kick apples and steaks and silverware off the tables but it will get put back into place eventually.

The only npc I've seen go hungry and steal food is city swimmer though.

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Rage has failed to compel me, sadly. I HATE vehicle segments in FPS games--the only exceptions being where you're basically riding shotgun and blasting things while the AI drives on a preset course--so that being a big element of the game doesn't fill me with hope. I'm not really into the whole "apocalypse desert wasteland" thing either. And enemies that are basically somewhat disfigured humans? Dull, dull. At least give us some freaky Resident Evil/Dead Space mutants here.

Really, the only thing that drew my attention was the demonstration of the editing tools. Basically being able to edit the map in real time by just, like, "drawing" grass on the ground looked really neat (though it's probably tons harder than it looks).

Oh well. At least it's got a nice, juicy new graphics engine for DOOM 4 to hijack.

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Megamur said:

Really, the only thing that drew my attention was the demonstration of the editing tools. Basically being able to edit the map in real time by just, like, "drawing" grass on the ground looked really neat (though it's probably tons harder than it looks).


When did you see that? I certainly never saw anything about that online...

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