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DoomUK
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Not the typical kind of topic that gets posted on these boards, but I happened upon this page today:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_celibacy


Does anyone think that this is a legitimate problem some people face? Or do you think it's a piece of pseudo-psychology that certain shy people like to hide behind as a way of distracting themselves from their difficulties in life?

Myself, I lean towards the latter. Either these guys (and more rarely, women) are either doing everything right but are genuinely unlucky in the love department, or they're on some level of social ineptitude but don't want to admit it or have an inability to recognize it.

Old Post 03-29-11 19:12 #
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Phobus
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I know somebody who definitely qualifies as an example for that "condition" (as it were). It's kind of funny, but mostly just one of those "facts of life" - some people just aren't that lucky/attractive/socially ept. Despite the strong piss-taking culture between us lot, we don't even mention it very often.

Old Post 03-29-11 19:45 #
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Quasar
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I could probably wax eloquent on this subject.

I guess I am supposed to get plastic surgery, go buy some long-term shock therapy or some kind of experimental brain surgery to forget most of my childhood, and then never do any of the things that I like to do now. Because probably only with all three of those would I be anywhere close to "marketable." But it doesn't really seem to matter. Even when I'm on my "A" game people I have never even met before come up to me and treat me like I am some kind of garbage just because of the way I look. And if there is one thing I definitely cannot do, it is tolerate being laughed at with that disgusting tone that says you are some kind of dirt. It makes little miniature bombs explode inside my brain.

People like me have a choice. Fuck some nasty whore that doesn't mean shit or die a virgin.

Old Post 03-29-11 20:24 #
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Jannak
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Sex is a basic biological function and celibacy is unhealthy.

Old Post 03-29-11 20:25 #
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DoomUK
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Jannak said:
Sex is a basic biological function and celibacy is unhealthy.

Which is why shyness or social anxiety or "involuntary celibacy" or whatever you prefer to call it is a very real problem and not one that's to be dismissed lightly, whether or not it's an extension of a more deep-rooted mental health issue that extends far beyond a person's sexual lifestyle (or lack of).

On the other hand, my concern is that making the shyness spectrum appear more complex and sophisticated than it ought to be may do more harm than good for anyone trying to struggle with such issues.

Old Post 03-29-11 20:57 #
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Grazza
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DoomUK said:
On the other hand, my concern is that making the shyness spectrum appear more complex and sophisticated than it ought to be may do more harm than good for anyone trying to struggle with such issues.
I agree (I think). Stigmatizing people who simply haven't yet found a suitable sexual partner, or aren't actively looking for one, as mentally ill is completely unhelpful.

Old Post 03-29-11 21:06 #
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printz
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DoomUK said:
Not the typical kind of topic that gets posted on these boards, but I happened upon this page today:-
Judging from the subsequent text in that post, I think it's a very typical kind of topic.

Also, it's not involuntary unless he's impaired somehow. Being shy simply means being at the wrong place and moment. If guy is an aspie and wants to stay home, why blame him?

Old Post 03-29-11 21:14 #
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DoomUK
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Grazza said:
I agree (I think). Stigmatizing people who simply haven't yet found a suitable sexual partner, or aren't actively looking for one, as mentally ill is completely unhelpful.


I didn't claim that 'shy people are mentally ill'. That's a misquote and a gross oversimplification of the point I was trying to get across. You would be within your right to rebuke me if I were to automatically assume EVERYONE who finds difficulty in finding a partner as having some kind of emotional problem that needs addressing, but that's not exactly what I'm suggesting is it?

Most likely not your fault for interpreting my words that way. The term "mentally ill" still carries a lot of unfortunate implications for many people and I suppose a less clinical choice of words would have been more appropriate.

Also worth noting that I have some first-hand experience with what it's like to experience these things. As I've aged both physically and emotionally I've come to realize that not succeeding in finding a partner really only represents the tip of the metaphorical iceberg in regards to the self-confidence problems I have, whereas when I was younger I was obsessed with the idea that finding a girlfriend/soul mate/whatever would solve everything that was going wrong in my life. It was my raison d'etre.

I guess I see a piece of myself in a lot of guys who have so much difficulty in finding love. Quasar's previous words alone express what I have felt on countless occasions, if not something I can relate to perpetually.

Last edited by DoomUK on 03-29-11 at 22:52

Old Post 03-29-11 22:39 #
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Maes
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Quasar said:
The saddest thing I've ever read here on DW


OK dude...that sounds just plain wrong, even if I'm probably the last person who could criticize you for that :-/

I had an idealized mental picture that a Doomworld mod was somehow a cool, confident person well above such petty problems, and now you shattered it :-(

Old Post 03-29-11 22:56 #
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EarthQuake
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Topic pretty much describes me, except I'm not particularly unattractive or even a virgin, but I find it pretty much impossible to find someone who would tolerate spending the rest of their life with me. It's to the point where I don't even try to look. God damnit, Doom.

Old Post 03-29-11 23:06 #
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Grazza
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DoomUK: I wasn't attempting to represent or reword your point or anything like that at all. I was agreeing (more or less) with the text I had quoted and going on to make an additional comment.

Old Post 03-29-11 23:09 #
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kristus
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While I can relate some of that to me, I'm just another guy that is too shy for my own good when it comes to romantic relationships which leads to me having no sex for the last 6 or 7 years and I lost my virginity very late. I just find it extremely uncomfortably to try and start any form of romantic or sexual relationship. I don't really miss the sex all that much. But the lack of intimacy is something I find frustrating. I'm also not very intimate with my family either. As I also find that uncomfortable. I remember when I was riding with my father on his motorcycle as a boy and I found it uncomfortable to hold on to him for the very practical reason of not falling off after I realized that I was essentially hugging him. There. That's enough sharing for the next 10 years. :p

Last edited by kristus on 03-30-11 at 00:02

Old Post 03-29-11 23:45 #
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EarthQuake
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Yeah, it's starting to feel a little awkward in here now.

Old Post 03-29-11 23:52 #
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Csonicgo


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Here in the south It's called "if I do it, my backwards bible-thumping redneck parents will make a Matthew Shephard out of me". how's that?????

Old Post 03-29-11 23:54 #
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John Smith
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You know I used to be pretty much the most introverted person ever. Really, really, introverted. Like didn't know what to do when people genuinely came up to you and said hi. I got over it. And I think most people can. A lot of shyness involves caring about what other people think of you, and when you let go of that, everything becomes easy. I mean, sure you come out looking like an asshole sometimes, but still, it works out.

I don't think though that shyness is the biggest factor here. Part of it is gaining self confidence in yourself (when you have it, it shows), and another part is being in an environment that promotes who you are, and I realize in a world of economic crisis and etc its sometimes hard to put yourself in the position you want to be in, but life isn't fair. So slap it like a bitch, and get shit done.

Old Post 03-30-11 00:08 #
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Mr. Freeze
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You guys probably have a lot more on your plate than worrying about getting a girl. Keep it that way. IMHO, sex is overrated anyway.

Old Post 03-30-11 00:31 #
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Quast
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DoomUK said:
Not the typical kind of topic that gets posted on these boards

It has, from time to time, typically in blogs however.


Does anyone think that this is a legitimate problem some people face? Or do you think it's a piece of pseudo-psychology that certain shy people like to hide behind as a way of distracting themselves from their difficulties in life?

It's both of these things, actually, for many forever virgins. If you have trust issues and social anxiety, welcome to the club. Literally the most worthless 'group' to ever be a part of.

Old Post 03-30-11 00:33 #
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Maes
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Quast said:
Literally the most worthless 'group' to ever be a part of.


Well, there's the Small Penis pride group...

Old Post 03-30-11 00:45 #
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AndrewB
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I'd say the idea is legitimate. The idea is basically that a lot of people (generally men) are perfectly adequate sexual partners, and want sex, but simply cannot obtain it due to unique circumstance or poor luck. What's so hard to believe about this?

Also, the name "Involuntary Celibacy" doesn't imply any kind of mental condition. It's not in the same vein as schizophrenia or psychopathy, for example. The term, I think, refers to a person's life circumstance, not a mental state. This is an important distinction.

Old Post 03-30-11 01:17 #
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Xeros612
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Jannak said:
Sex is a basic biological function and celibacy is unhealthy.


Jannak said:
celibacy is unhealthy.

[citation needed]

Old Post 03-30-11 01:17 #
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Technician
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Involuntary Celibacy is pretty much what created Islam. A religion with the promise of virgins after death? If I'm an undesirable male, sign me up to go boom.

Old Post 03-30-11 01:31 #
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Bank
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This really sounds like a non-issue.

Anybody can get laid if they have half a personality, this whole thing about "sexual situations not arising" is bullshit. Try getting in a decent relationship with someone and see how long before a "situation" comes up.

Now the part that is completely true is that an inability to get laid is related to depression and anxiety because it likely is in the company of an inability to have meaningful relationships. Folks these are both biological and emotional problems with your body and mind, you need to treat them just like you would any other health issue.

Therapy, therapy, therapy.

Old Post 03-30-11 01:45 #
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magicsofa
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AndrewB said:
The idea is basically that a lot of people (generally men) are perfectly adequate sexual partners, and want sex, but simply cannot obtain it due to unique circumstance or poor luck. What's so hard to believe about this?


That it should be referred to as a condition, rather than poor luck (or "unique circumstance").

I've known, and been very close friends with, several people who couldn't get laid. Now...thinking of those people, I'm not sure if "adequate sexual partner" really describes them. (Not to mention, there are plenty of sluts, male and female, who get laid all the time but I wouldn't consider adequate partners :P)

I guess it depends on what your definition of adequate is. But still...you don't have to look like brad pitt to find a partner. Maybe, on very rare occasions, people who really should be having sex aren't, due to unique circumstances. But I'm not willing to believe that every shy, nerdy guy's problems with dating can be chalked up to something so external as "circumstances." Your personality is the most important circumstance. Yeah, you should be yourself. You should not talk to girls the same way you talk to the people you play D&D with every saturday. In fact, it's not really going help if you talk to anyone that you don't know well the same way you talk to your close friends.

Maybe I'm just biased because of the certain people I hang out with, but I'm pretty sure all the guys I know who can't get a girl have one or more of the following characteristics:

1. Don't go out. (Duh...no girls in your room yet)
2. Engage in little or no social activities (working doesn't usually count)
3. Don't have respectable hygiene. (not necessary to be OCD, but you should probably bathe once in a while)
4. Think really hard about what to say.
5. Are pitiful
6. Play Doom.

Okay so #6 was a joke...and all of them should be taken with a grain of salt because I also know people who exhibit most or all of those characteristics and still manage to get some.

I don't know if this is supposed to be a pep talk or whatever, but as someone who used to be a total outcast and had long periods of time where I had one and only one friend, I can say that most of it is probably in your head and in your behavior. And if anyone comes back and says "No way, I swear I say all the right things..." you're automatically a dumbass.

Old Post 03-30-11 02:00 #
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Maes
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AndrewB said:
I'd say the idea is legitimate. The idea is basically that a lot of people (generally men) are perfectly adequate sexual partners, and want sex, but simply cannot obtain it due to unique circumstance or poor luck. What's so hard to believe about this?


Yet when I supported it through my -now offline- "The Way of Maes" articles, I just caught flak -then again, I debated it with all the class of Charles Bukowski banging a wino.

In any case, I took them offline because my relationship status changed and while I can still see some truths in them, I realized they just had a too much noise-to-signal ratio to be useful.

Old Post 03-30-11 02:41 #
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gggmork
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If you've never had a girlfriend then you're doing something right because natural selection 2.0 only selects things that fail.
I know why humans mate in pairs anyway. The god of evolution, Zornok, designed it this way to troll us. He knows that individual humans are the only rational units, and the more people you add to a group, the stupider and more lulzy it becomes due to the law of averages pulling everyone down (ex. scientology, the government) with the exception of groups that learned how to spam images of goatse to keep out Joe Sixpacks and Jane Soccermom. If you get a girlfriend, she'll likely be a twitter using, horoscope reading, water dowsing, christian lady gaga fan. This will rub off on you, which is Zornok's plan to impede the progress of humanity for lulz.
For the entire animal kingdom, sex is sane and easy because you just rape whoever you want without complex artificial 'laws'. You know deep down, you still prefer bondage porn and girls with leashes, you pervert. I read somewhere that a number one fantasy of human females is to be raped. See, laws prevent both sexes from getting what they want :(. For elephants, only 'natural laws' exist in the form of competing males, but this all flows naturally because its deeply programmed into your genes. Enter humans who add an insane arms race of culture over everything, including courtship, and now the only way to get a girlfriend is to become a member of a boyband or wearing a tie 10 hours a day. Well, like grass should have said millions of years ago before they spent all that energy evolving tree trunks to out shade eachother, I don't even want to participate. If humanity is evil, I want as few of my genes as possible in it. They'll just be stolen and completely manipulated by some post singularity version of Oprah (via natural selection 2.0) or something, just like factory farm animals are exploited today. RRAAAWWWAAAGGHHH 9000 PENISSES, MUAH HA HA HA HA HA

Ok, end the troll portion of this post I guess. In reality I'm about 3 damn decades old and never had a girlfriend, despite being fairly nipple pinchingly cute. I guess that's to be expected when humanity introduces new humans to life with their jail slash school system, or as I like to call it, the body/mind/soul removing system. I graduated with an inability to make eye contact with any other people who I feared, some sort of autistic suicidal manic depression complex etc. So I'd definitely be completely destroyed in a real prison system where being raped with a shank is status quo by design, I assume, as some sort of US technique to use torture as a deterrent even though its officially 'illegal'. Its a miracle if anyone ever gets through school and adds anything positive to the world (and that's a big if since the world seems to solely go in a negative direction.. oh sorry, thanks founder of facebook for your cool invention!). I still hope anonymous destroys everything and becomes the singularity, maybe starting with operation empire state rebellion, assuming that's not some trick from elites with astroturfing software.
Anyway, recently I started lifting weights (you have to eat lots of complete protein such as rice+beans. Its easy because afaik the most effective way to grow muscle is to aim for about 3 sets of an exercise where you merely aim to choose a weight that exhausts you after 6 or so reps of 5 seconds up and 5 down.. takes minimal time per day) and it helps a lot with confidence. I think I might actually have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a girlfriend who is not imaginary. One thing I hate is how humans don't wear nametags with their age on it. So you have to be extremely cautious when approaching a girl, not knowing whether Chris Hansen will pop out and send you to 'A Place For Paedophiles' (see louis theroux documentary). Or her boyfriend might show up and beat you senseless. In new guinea, female birds of paradise reject males who have a single feather slightly ruffled the wrong way, I'm sure its the same with human females. They're judging every single one of your body cells when you miraculously have the courage to approach and will probably call the cops for harassment after you utter one syllable. There's a huge impenetrable wall of bullshit 'smalltalk' as some idiotic requirement for dating, not good for introverted shy people with performance anxiety. Though now, I'm financially fucked because the economy was destroyed by design.. the master cockblockers always find a way. Wanking isn't so bad actually, probably even better. Ok, I'm done making an idiot of myself for now.

Old Post 03-30-11 02:53 #
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Danarchy
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"Involuntary Celibacy" sounds like a bullshit excuse. I myself have come to the conclusion that I'm never going to be in a real relationship in my life (every one I've had has blown up spectacularly before it has become one). I know I have way too many issues to ever be able to deal with another person in my life. I know it's not shyness, because I've eliminated that and am rather confident these days. Also, there is the fact that I've been single for so long that I'd have to completely readjust my life and I don't really want to do that. I'm enjoying life enough as it is. Most people tell me sex is overrated anyway, so I really don't care. Maybe one day if I actually have money I'll buy a hooker or two, but whatever.

Old Post 03-30-11 02:54 #
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Maes
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If any DW thread ever made me die a little inside, that'd be it. Way of Maes? More like Way of Doom!

Old Post 03-30-11 03:06 #
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Technician
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I dislike children so that's a hindrance.

Old Post 03-30-11 03:20 #
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magicsofa
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Danarchy said:
Most people tell me sex is overrated anyway, so I really don't care.


Please don't listen to them. People who claim sex is overrated are either insecure, or ignorant. Insecure because they are trying to cover up their frustration resulting from lack of sex. Ignorant because they've never had a good lover. That's you, Mr. Freeze :P

Old Post 03-30-11 03:44 #
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Bank
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Yeah honestly dudes, if you think you're all settled in to be lonely and sexless for the rest of your lives I feel like they'll end up being pretty short. Get to work and quit coming up with excuses for why you can't connect with people.

Old Post 03-30-11 04:01 #
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