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Craigs
The only idiot here besides Csonicgo


Posts: 2438
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Fuzzyfireball said:
It may say some legal babble about not owning it. But to me, having absolute freedom with the installer is fucking owning it.


So what if it says I don't own it!? I think I own it and that's all that matters!


While I don't agree to them putting TW2 up on that piece of shit, I understand lots of drones use it. So that means more money. Again, I guess people don't mind getting butt fucked if they would rather buy it on Steam. Just like people who even USE Xbox live or a similar service.


PEOPLE WHO DON'T HATE THE THINGS THAT I HATE AND USE TOTALLY MAINSTREAM SERVICES ARE MINDLESS DRONES!!!


Um, yes they are, you just don't like me trashing your precious Steam.

I was tempted to make another "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE" joke here but I think you've pretty much filled that quota of general douche baggery.


Steam has been known to deactivate accounts when they didn't need to. What kind of bullshit is that? One day to lose all access to your games? When you didn't do anything wrong? You have to sit there prove it too. Go ahead and look it up.


Funny thing is, I did. This was one of the first things that came up.


If the last time you connected to Steam was before early december, then
you may have run into a bug which has now been fixed - if you connect to
Steam and update the Steam platform, this should go away and not bother
you again.

Old Post 11-17-11 00:32 #
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GreyGhost
a ghost... only grey


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Sig-ma said:
you still don't own your games, blah, blah, blah.
It's been that way for as long as I can remember, even with physical media.

Sure, you don't have to install software then but you don't have friends, voice / instant message chat, achievements, dedicated servers and whatever else.
None of which should be required or even considered necessary for playing offline.


Fuzzyfireball said:
Don't share your opinion, it's trollish behavior?
It's not so much what's said as how it's said.

Old Post 11-17-11 02:35 #
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Cyanosis
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I'll admit one gets out of line once and a while and there could of been better wording.

But sometimes you just got to tell people they're full of shit.

Old Post 11-17-11 04:15 #
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caco_killer
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GreyGhost said:
It's been that way for as long as I can remember, even with physical media.


Yeah, I know the movie and music industries do not want people to make any copies of their movies or music, even if its just a personal backup copy.

Old Post 11-17-11 04:43 #
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Sig-ma
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What is this? A friendly discussion or a battle of fucking attrition? This is my last post in this winner-of-a-thread, so don't bother trolling me.

1) I like Steam. I value the flexibility it provides; being able to download and install my games whenever and wherever I want and the Steam cloud function. I use the IM service on a regular basis. My internet connection does not suck. I've never had it lock me out of games. I have never had any problems with it. That said, no one should have to defend why they like something or be demonized for using it. Maybe I hate Skype. Oh, you like Skype? Fuck you. That's basically how some people here are acting. It is inappropriate and childish.

2) The hack sucks. I've been watching my bank account (despite not saving my personal info) and reading up on it. Thus far, I don't think anything has come of it. I cannot help but think the hack was targeted at Steam for no other reason than it is popular. It happens. The Playstation Network was hacked and ripped down for weeks. I remember NewDoom.com was hacked years back. Games are hacked all of the time and pirated. Mastercard/Visa was hacked. Facebook accounts are hacked on a daily basis. The FBI data-base was fucking hacked.

3) A lot of developers love Steam. Steam is the number one source of PC game sales as of right now. Many indie developers publish their games via Steam. I believe (could be mistaken?) Carnevil was saying he planned or would like to release Wrack via Steam. CD Projekt loves Steam. Most of their Witcher 2 sales were via the Steam platform.

4) I understand and will readily acknowledge that some people have legitimate reasons for disliking Steam. I can conceive that some people have had their accounts banned for no reason. However, I tend to take much of that with a grain of salt. The only account closure thread I ever noticed and actively followed ironically had several different users post about how the person complaining their account had been closed was hacking and idling in Team Fortress 2. Not too long after, the Steam rep issued a canned response and closed the thread. Hacking and otherwise breaking the EULA will result in account closure. As GreyGhost was so willing to point out, you don't own the software and you haven't-- for a long, long time. If you break Blizzard's EULA and they catch you? Account closure. If you break GOG.com's EULA and they catch you? Account closure. If you use that physical retail disc in any manner other than what it says you're allowed to in the manual? Massive, ridiculous fine and possibly prison.

5) People who have an actual reason to dislike Steam, fine. I empathize with their issues. It is pretty common knowledge that Enjay hates Steam around here. It is also pretty common knowledge that his internet connection sucks (or at least, did suck). For him, the Steam platform is understandably a pain-in-the-ass but that isn't really a Steam problem, really. As I said, people prefer accessibility. That's why consoles are so popular; you stick the disc in and it works. That's also why modding for an old as fuck game from 1993, Doom, is still popular.

6) Steam is actually pretty non-intrusive "DRM." The horror stories you hear primarily come from publishers who still cling to the idea that DRM will reduce piracy and thus plaster extremely restrictive forms of DRM all over their games. People seem to be realizing more and more that it doesn't solve anything-- especially since most (damn near all) pirates wouldn't have purchased the game anyway because they cannot afford it or don't want to pay for it. The main problem I hear with Steam is a problem built entirely around principle-- you shouldn't need to install the software. Rarely have I heard people saying that actually back that up with a personal experience, facts (and I don't mean some random guy on the internet complaining with his side of the story-- this is the fucking internet, people blow shit so grossly out of proportion that there is usually only a tiny speck of truth in what they say) or other actual reasons.

7) If a developer wants to use Steam or any other platform, that is their prerogative. You know how fucking stupid someone would sound complaining that they need to purchase an Xbox 360 to play their Xbox 360 game? Extremely. You're told on the back of the box if a game requires Steam. Again and again I hear, you shouldn't be forced to use it. Who is forcing you? No one is forcing me to purchase a Playstation 3 so I can play Uncharted 3. Sure, I'd like to play it but does it matter in the end? No. Am I being forced? Absolutely not.

8) If any of the rabid Steam haters think it would help their case, I can make a post in the Skyrim thread asking everyone playing Skyrim on the PC if they have been personally butt-fucked by Steam at any point while playing it. I know I haven't!

You may rest easy now! You have my personal guarantee that Steam will not bust out of your computer case and murder you in your sleep! For those people who actually read the entire thread, Craigs didn't deserve to have that shit thrown in his face. The only reason I even responded as much as I have in this thread is because people are so ridiculously hostile when they have no reason to be.

Old Post 11-17-11 11:02 #
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Cyanosis
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Who the fuck is trolling you?

It's a new day, you can stop crying now.

Old Post 11-17-11 12:02 #
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GreyGhost
a ghost... only grey


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Sig-ma said:
What is this? A friendly discussion or a battle of fucking attrition?
This is Sparta Doomworld! Discussions often get a bit boisterous here, with Steam being a popular "red flag to a bull" topic.


You may rest easy now! You have my personal guarantee that Steam will not bust out of your computer case and murder you in your sleep!
Sprinkling the case with holy water, rivetting silver crucifixes to the side panels and locking it in the back shed at night wouldn't hurt either - that's how I recovered my peace of mind after installing .NET Framework.

Old Post 11-17-11 12:16 #
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hex11
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Your (or anybody's) guarantee is worthless. People don't trust Steam because they have acted badly in the past, just as PayPal and others have done. Why would anybody invest their time and money into an entity that can shut you out and deny you what you paid for at their whim? That is not a good position to be in, and that is the key issue. It makes no sense to support such services.

Old Post 11-17-11 12:37 #
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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 7042
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Grazza said:
Yes, it has indeed done a lot, most notably playing a significant role in its decline.


I'd like to know your reasoning behind this assertion. There are many reasons to think the opposite (great support for indie developers, regular discount sale events that always attract a lot of people, etc.). There are more credible suspects for PC gaming decline (massive filesharing-based piracy, Microsoft's console built on PC architecture to incite traditionally PC-based developers to move to consoles, etc.).

So how did Steam significantly contributed to PC gaming's decline? It's a genuine question, I want to know what led you to think that.

Old Post 11-17-11 13:29 #
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Vordakk
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Gez said:

So how did Steam significantly contributed to PC gaming's decline? It's a genuine question, I want to know what led you to think that.



Not trying to speak for Grazza, but I found an article that might be of some use. One thing it notes is that certain DRM actually encourages piracy because consumers who purchase titles with DRM are often treated worse than those who simply pirate the game. I dunno if this really has any merit, and I only skimmed the article, but yeah.

Old Post 11-17-11 13:37 #
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Cyanosis
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Vordakk said:
consumers who purchase titles with DRM are often treated worse than those who simply pirate the game.


That's just common sense. Now if it were the other way around...

Old Post 11-17-11 16:57 #
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rf`
Dr. Nosign


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The way I see it is this. If you don't like Steam, then don't play games on Steam, and don't complain about it. Go play halo or something.

Old Post 11-17-11 17:07 #
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Maes
I like big butts!


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hex11 said:
Why would anybody invest their time and money into an entity that can shut you out and deny you what you paid for at their whim?


Different consumer mentality and expectations. The average US consumer may find the Steam model perfectly reasonable and feels that he needn't worry about stuff like service availability, technical trivias, alternatives etc. because, after all, if it's in the marketplace, it has to be good and offer certain guarantees, right?

I can't speak about the average UK or French or German consumer here, but such a model would simply not work in Greece: it reeks of vapourware, of ephemeral, and people here never had this mentality of blindly trusting a commercial company (quite the opposite, people have learned to be suspicious, cautious, and only settle for tangible stuff).

This is an enormous impedance mismatch: the avg. Greek consumer would never understand the advantages the avg. US consumer ascribes to Steam: to him, it would be simply crazy paying money for something that doesn't even leave you with a physical copy and relies on a chain of other conditions to work as intended.

Old Post 11-17-11 17:49 #
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Fuzzyfireball
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I'd like to point out one more thing then.


Sig-ma said:
CD Projekt loves Steam. Most of their Witcher 2 sales were via the Steam platform.


Steam has more members then any other DD "service" out there right now. That's not news at all. The real shining point of that article is this line: "

"Direct2Drive, Impulse and Gamersgate’s combined sales combined hit only 10,000 sales of CD Projekt’s RPG, whereas GOG managed to shift a cool 40,000 copies."

GOG.com was the second best to Steam. Considering GOG advertised they had the DRM free version, and don't have the huge Steam user base, that should tell you that yes, people DO care about DRM, and it IS a legitimate complaint.

That is all. I'm done.

Old Post 11-17-11 17:57 #
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Sig-ma
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This is actually too funny for me to not post once more.


Cyanosis said:Who the fuck is trolling you?

It's a new day, you can stop crying now.



If that is all you have to add to this wonderful discussion, you're kind of answering your own question, are you not?


GreyGhost said:This is Sparta Doomworld! Discussions often get a bit boisterous here, with Steam being a popular "red flag to a bull" topic.


I know. Despite the profanities, my post was mostly in jest. I'm happy you understood that. :)


hex11 said:People don't trust Steam because they have acted badly in the past, just as PayPal and others have done. Why would anybody invest their time and money into an entity that can shut you out and deny you what you paid for at their whim? That is not a good position to be in, and that is the key issue. It makes no sense to support such services.


Odd you should use PayPal as an example. I used to use PayPal for eBay but following a bad experience, I attempt not to anymore. Many people still use it and I do not particularly care. Their computer. Their time. Their money.

Why would people use such a service? Simple. Look at the service itself and what it features. Regarding Steam, I'm not particularly worried about Steam dying. The platform will be there when I hop on later for my daily Skyrim fix, a week from now, a month from now, so forth and so on. Is is conceivable that one day it will be hacked and forced down? Absolutely. Is it conceivable a drunk may hit me head-on tomorrow? Absolutely. I have no issues with the service and some imaginable, potential boogey-man biding his time, waiting to jump out from under the bed some unknown amount of time from now isn't going to ruin my experience with it now.


Vordakk said:Not trying to speak for Grazza, but I found an article that might be of some use. One thing it notes is that certain DRM actually encourages piracy because consumers who purchase titles with DRM are often treated worse than those who simply pirate the game. I dunno if this really has any merit, and I only skimmed the article, but yeah.


I know you proclaimed you only skimmed the article but you may want to remove it if your intention is to assist Grazza's opinion. That article actually says the exact opposite of Grazza's assertion is true. Specifically, the article shows what the articles I linked also show... Steam has helped PC gaming.


Valve Corporation has a digital distribution service for the PC called Steam (Anon, A. 2010) that releases games for consumers, giving them the option of downloading titles directly to their PC instead of having to go to a local computer shop to purchase it. This is coincidental as when valve was first released the physical space that the PC games market occupied in retail stores had been slowly shrinking for years(Hook, R.B. 2009), sometimes disappearing completely, and the Steam service offered the alternative of buying any major PC game release from the comfort of home. This helped raise the sales of PC games as Steam offered competitive prices and friendly DRM, and with 25 million users they have made a big impact in software sales.


That said, Steam's "DRM" doesn't treat me badly at all. Like I've said about a dozen times now, I've never had any issues or complaints personally with the Steam service.


Cyanosis said:That's just common sense. Now if it were the other way around...


What an interesting, informative and otherwise well thought-out post. Your thesis, descriptive personal experiences with Steam and backed-up evidence are clearly too much for me to handle. I hereby denounce my liking of Steam.

Old Post 11-17-11 17:57 #
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Cyanosis
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Sig-ma said:This is my last post in this winner-of-a-thread, so don't bother trolling me.


I feel like I've been trolled, you lied.


Sig-ma said:What an interesting, informative and otherwise well thought-out post. Your thesis, descriptive personal experiences with Steam and backed-up evidence are clearly too much for me to handle. I hereby denounce my liking of Steam.


Heh. I'm not here to prove a point to prove your point so a point can be proven and lump the whole clusterfuck together while you're at it? I'm here to voice my [insertwhateverwordyoufancy] opinion on paying customers being treated like shit versus pirates who can just get what they need without the hassle. I apologize profusely that it is not in-depth enough to appease your needs since they are so fucking important.

Old Post 11-17-11 18:14 #
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geo
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While we've drifted off to other subjects... its amazing looking at Amazon reviews of games that have DRM... They get one star reviews even if they're Half Life 2, Grand Theft Auto 4 and other great games. In a way its like saying Michael Jordan is one of the best basketball players ever. But the bottom line is that he's black.

Old Post 11-17-11 19:22 #
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Cyanosis
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geo said:
its amazing looking at Amazon reviews of games that have DRM... They get one star reviews even if they're Half Life 2, Grand Theft Auto 4 and other great games.


Gee I wonder why. That was only explained earlier by Fuzzy.

"Oh well the DRM isn't doing anything to me lol"

It's taking your rights away you fucking git.

Old Post 11-17-11 19:26 #
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geo
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*sigh*

Is it really? What right did I lose? My freedom of speech? My right to play the game whenever? I can play games offline unless they're online games. I can play Oblivion offline. I can play HL2 offline, I can play GTA 4 offline. I can't do multiplayer. Heck I can even play TF2 offline with bots and TF2 has DRM. I have all of these games installed on 3 computers.

What's the right I lost? My sanity having to listen to DRM haytas?

Old Post 11-17-11 19:30 #
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Fuzzyfireball
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geo said:
In a way its like saying Michael Jordan is one of the best basketball players ever. But the bottom line is that he's black.


...What?

Old Post 11-17-11 19:30 #
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geo
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He was black and it doesn't matter if he's one of the greatest basketball players ever. Half Life 2 has DRM so it doesn't matter if its argueably one of the greatest FPS ever. It doesn't matter because it has DRM. RAWRRR. (In reference to Amazon reviews that give games 1 star for having DRM)

Old Post 11-17-11 19:33 #
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Cyanosis
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WHA-WHAT THE FUUUUCK?

WHY MUST YOU PEOPLE MAKE MY HEAD STOP WORKING FOR A MOMENT JUST TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY MOST OF THE DAMN TIME? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You ... actually don't have a problem with CPU eating programs running in the background accusing you at all times of potential criminal activity? Limited installs?

Oh the god that does not exist, there is no point in kissing your ass anymore or being nice, over the fucking Internet, on a goddamn forum, of a nearly 18 year old game, for you. I'll run along now and let you live in your ... weird world. Black people are now DRM, or something.

Old Post 11-17-11 19:41 #
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geo
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I kind of thought my earlier post explained it.

Let's look at how much Steam uses shall we???? I'm multi tasking. Virus scan. MS word. Dreamweaver, Rhapsody. AIM playing. Steam. MSIE.

Steam is LOW on the CPU totem pole. SO low its probably #50.

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/8781/locker/steam.jpg

Limited installs??? I've installed games on 3 computers (2 PCs 1 Laptop). How is that limited? In fact 4 computers on my dead computer.

Old Post 11-17-11 20:00 #
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Sig-ma
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Just to back up geo here and end this nonsense.

Example One

In this example I am downloading a game on Steam. Notice how I also have one Firefox window open, with only one tab and yet, Steam is using half of the memory of Firefox. My CPU is at 4%.

Example Two

Here, I have Steam running in the background, idle. Notice how everything is exactly the same and my system is now using 0% of my CPU.

As far as limited installs, I have only ever owned two PC games with limited installs and both were patched to remove that DRM. Those games were Bioshock and the Witcher 2. I could uninstall and reinstall everything else all week long and it wouldn't matter.

As far as being accused of criminal activity? Whatever. Exaggerate all you want. Everyone draws their own line in the sand. Generally, I do not support DRM that causes me inconvenience or makes it harder to use. If you read the Rage thread, I complained my fair share about the unlock pass code and Tim Willits talking about 'always-on' shit. However, Steam has never given me issues and I appreciate (like!) many of the features it has.

EDIT: I forgot to include my baseline comparison.

Example Three

This example shows the exact same thing except Steam is not running at all. Between example two and this example, I should be clearly demonstrating that Steam uses essentially no CPU resources. Furthermore, despite closing Steam (and 5 other running processes) my system memory only dropped 4%. So, yeah. Steam uses less than 4% of my system memory and less than 1% of my CPU resources.

Last edited by Sig-ma on 11-17-11 at 20:58

Old Post 11-17-11 20:36 #
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geo
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Your picture isn't showing. now I see the links...

Thanks for the backup Sig-Ma. I'd watch your back with a shotgun too... Bad Company.

Old Post 11-17-11 20:39 #
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Fuzzyfireball
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geo said:
He was black and it doesn't matter if he's one of the greatest basketball players ever. Half Life 2 has DRM so it doesn't matter if its argueably one of the greatest FPS ever. It doesn't matter because it has DRM. RAWRRR. (In reference to Amazon reviews that give games 1 star for having DRM)


I don't agree with this at all. If you don't see what the problem with any DRM is, then maybe you never will. Let's just move on, I feel like I made my point.

Sorry for such "Trollish" behavior.

Old Post 11-17-11 20:44 #
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geo
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I'm also the guy that loves cops cuz I don't do anything wrong while my friends all freak out if cops are around... even when they're doing nothing wrong. People fear phantoms.

Personally, I fear keyloggers more and hackers. Keyloggers > hackers. Because they're specifically wanting to steal something from you. While if anything Steam wants to know what games millions of people want to play so then if 90% of people are playing FPS, then Valve will come out with an FPS. Or they'll plug a new FPS to you a FPS player instead of the new RTS. I'd think that would be the logistics of it. Like the Neilsen chips in television determine ratings for sponsors.

Old Post 11-17-11 20:50 #
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Danarchy
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Grazza said:
Yes, it has indeed done a lot, most notably playing a significant role in its decline.

Bullshit.

For one, it completely made PCs a viable market once again. In an age where you can pay $60 for a console game, or $60 for a PC game while consoles cost a quarter or less of what a good PC costs, people opt for the consoles. Those with PCs just pirate the games instead. The PC market was on the decline. Then there was Steam, where for that same $60, you can get a whole library of games in one of their sales. Or you can pick up older or indie titles for maybe $10-20. With full multiplayer support, and usually full customer support.

Second, it's done wonders for the indie games market. It used to be word of mouth, or at least something you had to read gaming periodicals if you wanted to hear about these things. Now gamers who get Steam just for Half-Life 2 or Call of Duty or whatever other AAA title are seeing indie games advertised right next to the big-name titles. That has surely done wonders to boost sales for these developers.

Third, Steam is probably the most stable multiplayer platform I've seen since Battlenet (even moreso, I'd say). Multiplayer is supported on just about ever game on Steam that has it, and Steam makes it really easy to connect though their platform.

Old Post 11-17-11 21:03 #
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I'myourtarget
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I probably laughed out loud for about 2 minutes at the "Black people are to DRM as Michael Jordan is to Half Life 2" analogy. Seriously, what the fuck?
I agree with your arguments involving steam, but I can't tell if you're trying to prove that if people don't like HL2 because of Steam it means that people don't like Michael Jordan because he's black.

Old Post 11-17-11 21:54 #
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geo
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LOL I'm glad someone got it IYT :-) I'm just trying to sillytize the logic flaw some people have when it comes to DRM declining PC sales.

Old Post 11-17-11 22:02 #
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