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Grain of Salt
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Or, if you will, "pizza is a vegetable".

http://www.time.com/time/nation/art...2099782,00.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...le_really_.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...XgmhN_blog.html

You've probably heard this already. In the US, school meals have to have a certain amount of vegetables, and tomato paste is counted towards this requirement -- in fact, it is considered more nutritious than an equivalent amount of unprocessed vegetables (a "serving" of vegetables is half a cup, and one eighth of a cup of tomato paste is considered a serving). There were apparently plans to amend this, but they were blocked by a recent spending bill.

Any thoughts?

11-22-11 01:58 #

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Technician
Still no custom title

Posts: 5772
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Who cares if they are serving shit. The parents don't give a shit to begin with. If they did, they'd send them a packed lunch.

EDIT: I wasn't going to make a thread about this FDA failure, but enjoy!

11-22-11 02:01 #

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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!

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This is exactly why I always brought food from home with me.

11-22-11 02:02 #

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Grain of Salt
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Technician said:
Who cares if they are serving shit. The parents don't give a shit to begin with.

Personally, that's exactly why I care.

11-22-11 02:14 #

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lupinx-Kassman
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It's no secret that school cafeteria meals were and always will be crap.

11-22-11 02:18 #

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DoomUK
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What's not nutritious about pizza? If the tomato paste on a pizza contains the same properties as a fresh tomato, what difference does it make how it's served? Also consider the other ingredients on there like mushrooms, chicken, pineapple or whatever one likes on their pizza.

I'm 29 and I've never eaten a whole fresh tomato in my life. I hate them. As a consequence of this I'm perfectly healthy. The trick is to maintain a balanced diet, not be obsessive over this "junk food is bad for you" thing. Just because something tastes nice thanks to the sugar and salt in there doesn't mean it's a ticket to a heart attack at a young age. If you lived solely off tomatoes and lettuce, you wouldn't have the strength to climb a flight of stairs.

Perhaps I'm drifting away from the topic at hand a little, but this is something that always bothers me.

11-22-11 09:08 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

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Why wouldn't tomato paste be a vegetable? Are tomatoes not vegetables?

If you think that's problematic, wait until you see the -quite liberal- definitions of what is "fasting compatible" food here for Orthodox Christians ;-) In theory, when fasting religiously, you should avoid animal products except fish. But you can -in theory- happily gorge yourself with fried potatoes and sugar candy.

11-22-11 09:15 #

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Snakes
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Wish in one hand, McRib in the other. See which one gets filled first.

11-22-11 15:17 #

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Xeros612
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Maes said:
Why wouldn't tomato paste be a vegetable? Are tomatoes not vegetables?

Some would consider it a fruit on the basis of the seeds inside.

11-22-11 15:48 #

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Phobus
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Maes said:
Why wouldn't tomato paste be a vegetable? Are tomatoes not vegetables?

They are indeed fruit, so no, they're not vegetables. That's what amazes me here to be honest. I can live with "tomato paste" being considered a healthy option due to it's high tomate content... but a vegetable? Made out of fruit?

11-22-11 17:49 #

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Aliotroph?
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Tomato paste is ridiculously good for you as long as it's not full of other ingredients that aren't. As for the fruit/vegetable thing, I don't understand why people care. Lots of things that get lumped in as vegetables are fruits. It matters not.

11-22-11 18:20 #

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hobomaster22
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Phobus said:

They are indeed fruit, so no, they're not vegetables. That's what amazes me here to be honest. I can live with "tomato paste" being considered a healthy option due to it's high tomate content... but a vegetable? Made out of fruit?

I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that it's technically, by scientific terms, a fruit. As far as cooking and eating is concerned it's generally considered a vegetable because it is used like a 'vegetable'.

Squash, cucumbers, green beans, and peppers would all be scientifically considered fruits as well. So really the produce is considered a fruit or vegetable depending on the context in which it is used for food.

11-22-11 18:32 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

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hobomaster22 said:
I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that it's technically, by scientific terms, a fruit. As far as cooking and eating is concerned it's generally considered a vegetable because it is used like a 'vegetable'.

That. As long as it ain't meat, fish, synthetic, mineral or fungus, assuming that it's edible, it must be of "vegetable origins" simply by exclusion. This also includes algae, BTW.

As for pizza being a vegetable...well, it can be made of "all vegetable ingredients" if you exclude the yeast (or the ammonium, if you are a lazy bum), and if you don't use any butter, salami or cheese in its preparation. But even then it will be a "processed food with all-vegetable ingredients". It's not as if pizzas grow on trees.

11-22-11 18:51 #

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Quasar
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Would you expect any less when the FDA food czar is a former head of Monsanto? Pretty soon it's going to be illegal to grow your own food because it's not government approved. It's like something out of the fucking Omen movie.

11-22-11 19:14 #

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Grain of Salt
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DoomUK said:
What's not nutritious about pizza? If the tomato paste on a pizza contains the same properties as a fresh tomato, what difference does it make how it's served?

Maes said:
Why wouldn't tomato paste be a vegetable? Are tomatoes not vegetables?

Aliotroph? said:
Tomato paste is ridiculously good for you as long as it's not full of other ingredients that aren't.

Even when there are no additives, processed fruit/vegetable matter are not considered as nutritious as fresh fruit and vegetables. Tomato paste, for example, is cooked for a long time, losing a great amount of vitamin C. There's a stipulation for vegetables as part of a school meal because of the benefits of fresh vegetables, not vegetable matter as a cooking ingredient.

Moreover, there's a specific reason for the prevalence of processed fruit and vegetables. Fruit and vegetables are not very efficient as a commodity -- they're perishable, delicate, and they can only be obtained at certain times of they year. Processed fruit and vegetables are far easier to store and trade, making them a better commodity, despite the inherent drop in nutritional value. When processed vegetables start replacing fresh ones, it's because big business is winning at the expense of public health.

DoomUK said:
I'm 29 and I've never eaten a whole fresh tomato in my life. I hate them. As a consequence of this I'm perfectly healthy.

It's misleading to focus solely on tomatoes. You could well have a healthy diet without eating a single tomato, but that's irrelevant. Fresh vegetables are still an important part of a healthy diet.

Just because something tastes nice thanks to the sugar and salt in there doesn't mean it's a ticket to a heart attack at a young age.

I have no idea what you mean by this. It's very solidly established that fat, sugar and salt contribute to heart disease.

If you lived solely off tomatoes and lettuce, you wouldn't have the strength to climb a flight of stairs.

Again, completely irrelevant.

11-22-11 20:01 #

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Maes
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Grain of Salt said:
There's a stipulation for vegetables as part of a school meal because of the benefits of fresh vegetables, not vegetable matter as a cooking ingredient.

While I understand this point of view, I'd still dismiss it as a subtle technicality or an improper specialization of the word "vegetable" to encompass only fresh vegetables.

Interestignly enough, the US seem to have a reverse problem of defining what is "fresh milk": an Euro commie pinko like me learned that "fresh milk" is the stuff you buy in cartons that has to be kept in the refrigerator all the time and consumed within 4-5 days tops no matter what (unless you feel adventurous), and contains no added preservatives or vitamins by EU law.

OTOH I heard people here mentioning that in the US you can only buy some super-processed abomination "fresh milk" that can last 1 month or more (WTF?) out of the fridge once opened. What the hell is it made from? Even plain water with some white colorant would be rather stale and not quite safe to drink after a month at room temperature.

11-22-11 20:31 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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Even if tomato paste were the most nutritious ambrosia known to man, the amount that you'll find in one pizza slice isn't enough to qualify pizza as a vegetable, nutritionally speaking. The issue here is that lobbyists from the frozen food industry have gotten the FDA to redefine white: "black."

The other issue is that "Did you know that tomatoes are fruits, not vegetables?" is something that you should never say to anyone older than five. It's a fun fact made to entertain simple thinkers. The more nuanced truth is, of course, that "fruit" is a botanical term, while "vegetable" is a dietary one, and they are not opposites or mutually exclusive.

11-22-11 20:33 #

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Maes
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Creaphis said:
It's a fun fact made to entertain simple thinkers. The more nuanced truth is, of course, that "fruit" is a botanical term, while "vegetable" is a dietary one, and they are not opposites or mutually exclusive.

Even more fun if you haze little children with the concept of "false fruit" that are supposedly "not safe for them to eat because they are false".

11-22-11 20:35 #

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Grain of Salt
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Maes said:
While I understand this point of view, I'd still dismiss it as a subtle technicality or an improper specialization of the word "vegetable" to encompass only fresh vegetables.

I'm assuming that the regulations for vegetables were motivated by health concerns. They must have been, or else there was no reason for them to be introduced. If we're encouraging people to eat vegetables but not prioritizing healthy eating, we may as well declare ketchup sachets a vegetable under this system. Or fries. Or pumpkin pie.

But no, I'm reasonably confident that these regulations were introduced in the hope of giving children healthier meals -- meaning that, regardless of the phrasing of the rule, the system is designed to place a greater importance of fresher, healthier vegetables, and not to just provide any vegetable derivative.

11-22-11 21:42 #

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xvertigox
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Just to be clear what's causing contention is that now pizza with 2 tablespoons of tomato paste is counted as a serving of vegetables vs the old system where 8 was required.

11-22-11 23:52 #

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Quast
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Maes said:
OTOH I heard people here mentioning that in the US you can only buy some super-processed abomination "fresh milk" that can last 1 month or more (WTF?) out of the fridge once opened. What the hell is it made from?

I have never ever heard of anything like this. Powdered milk maybe? But that's not a liquid.

Milk in the US comes in cartons and jugs and must be kept refrigerated and lasts a week or so.

11-22-11 23:59 #

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GreyGhost
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Maes said:
If you think that's problematic, wait until you see the -quite liberal- definitions of what is "fasting compatible" food here for Orthodox Christians ;-) In theory, when fasting religiously, you should avoid animal products except fish.

Fancy a capybara steak or leg of beaver? They've both been classified as fish at some point in the past.

This Time cartoon sums things up quire nicely

11-23-11 02:07 #

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myk
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What's this tomato paste thing... anything related to tomato sauce?

Pizza also has dough which is wheat cereal, that is vegetable matter. In Spanish we have the term "verduras" to mean "green and garden vegetables" but all vegetables are vegetable foods, including cereals and fruits. If the law required "fresh vegetables", things would be different.

11-24-11 03:29 #

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Coopersville
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People should have the choice to eat whatever they want. If the school system has to create some bogus loophole to provide students that option, along with also providing them with courses on how to eat properly, so be it.

11-25-11 00:12 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

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GreyGhost said:
Fancy a capybara steak or leg of beaver? They've both been classified as fish at some point in the past.

In Greece, there's a saying "baptising meat as fish", referring to any entity which is able to bend the rules a-posteriori in their favour. Allegedly derived from the practice of certain monks/clergymen of "baptising" meat as fish so they could eat it without sinning/breaking their fasting.

@myk: I guess they are referring to a super-concentrated variety of tomato sauce (more dense and spiced than ketchup) which is often used for ordeuvres or pizza topping. It's almost as thick as toothpaste, and often sold in similar squeeze-tubes, but I've seen canned tomato paste too (sold in much smaller cans than unconcentrated).

@Quast: I dunno man. Take a read through this here thread and see if you can make head or tail out of it. I was left with the impression that in the US you can't find normal milk -or at least I stumbled upon someone who had no fucking idea about what "milk" was.

11-25-11 08:52 #

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