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dew
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if this thread was a stand alone issue, i'd immediatelly mark vordakk as a blatant poe. however it looks like he's just a fucking moron without a shred of decency. also known as religious right.

Old Post 12-09-11 11:16 #
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fraggle
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Vordakk said:
Since, for the atheist, there is no God, there cannot be a higher law. Therefore, atheists subject themselves to "natural law". But who decides that? You? Hardly. Me? Nope. Atheists would say that objective ethics are obtained by observing the consequences of actions for real people in this world. So if I want person X to be my friend, I'll be nice to them.


It's quite amusing reading these posts. It's obvious you've not really studied the philosophical concepts of ethics in any depth beyond pontifications like these that you probably dreamt up in the shower one day. Really, stop embarrassing yourself and go do some reading.

Old Post 12-09-11 11:39 #
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DoomUK
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I'm sorry to say that Vordakk has a point. Humans love to think of themselves as special and superior to the rest of the animal kingdom and natural world as a whole by adhering to complex systems of ethics. Whether we're smart enough to think up grandiose philosophies by ourselves or just do what we're told to do that's written in some book, it makes no difference. We're just intellectually-advanced ape-like creatures whose time will eventually come to an end, and we play by certain rules because that's what we believe to be the right thing to do. What's always amusing to me is that committed atheists subscribe to this exclusively, discrediting any alternative explanations for the meaning of life as religious bullshit, but get all uppity when someone calls them out on it.

But whether it's appropriate to be discussing any of this ITT is another matter. I say save it for another atheism vs theism thread.

Old Post 12-09-11 11:51 #
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dew
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DoomUK said:
I'm sorry to say that Vordakk has a point. Humans love to think of themselves as special and superior to the rest of the animal kingdom and natural world as a whole by adhering to complex systems of ethics. Whether we're smart enough to think up grandiose philosophies by ourselves or just do what we're told to do that's written in some book, it makes no difference. We're just intellectually-advanced ape-like creatures whose time will eventually come to an end, and we play by certain rules because that's what we believe to be the right thing to do. What's always amusing to me is that committed atheists subscribe to this exclusively, discrediting any alternative explanations for the meaning of life as religious bullshit, but get all uppity when someone calls them out on it.

that's a busload of horse manure. there's nothing complex or artificial about most of the valid and pertinent moral values, they're usually very rational and important rules for the development and well-being of a society. most of the commandments in the holy books helped to establish order in primitive societies in the particular places of origin. seriously, how the hell is "you shall not steal" complex? how is it even religious/god-given? it's a moral imperative for living along other people peacefully. the mindless horde of jews rampaging through the middle east needed a burning bush telling them to accept the simplest of rules? good for them that it worked, but don't pretend (a) god really bestowed all that wisdom on us. the jews just copied whatever the other, older, wiser civilizations around them used for a moral code. the christians just kinda improved the jewish rules. you cannot lock the socio-evolutionary process down, because it's quite obvious the bible doesn't describe the optimal set of rules (so god was wrong). or do you need to, i dunno, crucify richard dawkins first to recognize the similar pattern?

anyways. fast, clean and respectful disposing of human corpses is in line with the simple, obvious moral core present in any society ever. the rational reasons are painfully obvious - you don't want cannibalism, spreading of diseases and blood feuds. the first two are not very pertinent in the modern age, but pissing off people just to take vengeance on a dead body? how petty and retarded do you have to be to do that? all the other ritualistic bells and whistles added by islam weren't observed, so you can't even say the u.s. military gave in to something.

Old Post 12-09-11 13:18 #
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Maes
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ITT: we learned that if you're the Head Honcho calling the shots you can do pretty much as you please, set your own actions and values as the absolute standard, and let self-appointed minions and detractors duke it out among themselves, while you smile knowingly from the top of your pedestal.

Old Post 12-09-11 13:43 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Technician said:
Maybe it's because a civilized society shouldn't stoop down to Islamic pettiness and desecrate a corpse to humiliate a nation.
Fuuuuckk... although I hope your not posting this to try elevate Americans on a higher level to the arabs because there have been atrocities committed by both sides against civilians. Not to mention that America is only there to steal oil.

With response to the topic, wow... die your country, get treated like shit in return.

Last edited by DeathevokatioN on 12-09-11 at 14:45

Old Post 12-09-11 14:31 #
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Vordakk
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I love how people feel free to drop in and name-call or accuse me of being part of the religious right(I'm not even religious), but no one has yet been able to argue effectively against my point. Atheists have absolutely no ground to even attempt to bash someone else's ethics, because they create their own code of morality and it's only relevant to them. Responses ITT tend to be limited to, "Our ethics are right because they are widely accepted and they are necessary for civilized society", but that still doesn't make them cosmically valid. So I'll ask the throng again, "What(in absolute terms) makes your ethics right and mine wrong if some bearded omnipotent superbeing didn't set the rules?"

Old Post 12-09-11 15:01 #
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Phobus
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The answer to your question is "nothing". However, that question is incredibly contrived and has no relevence to the original topic of this thread, or indeed human society as a whole.


Oh, and your previous post about Drow completely falls apart when you remember who it was that wrote those books that label species as "Chaotic Evil" or "Lawful Good".

Old Post 12-09-11 15:15 #
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Gez
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Ethics are not a religious notion. The religious version is morality.

The basis for ethical considerations is the same as the one for laws in a non-theocratic nation.

Old Post 12-09-11 15:17 #
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Quasar
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DeathevokatioN said:
Fuuuuckk... although I hope your not posting this to try elevate Americans on a higher level to the arabs because there have been atrocities committed by both sides against civilians. Not to mention that America is only there to steal oil.

With response to the topic, wow... die your country, get treated like shit in return.


Most shit gets to become fertilizer, at least. So I'd say ending up in a steaming landfill next to leaking batteries, dirty diapers, and empty beer cans is worse than shit.

Old Post 12-09-11 15:19 #
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Maes
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Quasar said:

Most shit gets to become fertilizer, at least. So I'd say ending up in a steaming landfill next to leaking batteries, dirty diapers, and empty beer cans is worse than shit.



Maybe we could make a DOOM WAD about it: "Back from the Ashes: Landfill Nightmare Marine Revenge", where Doomguy has to fight hordes of disgruntled, landfill-spawned vengeful ghouls and zombies of former UAC Marines that didn't receive proper burial. Enter kick-ass new monsters such as the "Garbage Zombie", "Trash Sergeant", "Cess Ghoul" (Revenant), "Heavy Garbage Dude" (chaingunner), and assorted garbage-spawned monstrosities.

Old Post 12-09-11 15:26 #
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fraggle
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Vordakk said:
but that still doesn't make them cosmically valid.
You on the other hand are cosmically ignorant.

Seriously, go down to your local library and borrow a book on ethics so you actually learn the basics, because it's obvious you don't have a clue about what you're trying to talk about. If you can't muster the attention span to read an entire book, perhaps you could try watching some Youtube videos on the subject instead.

Old Post 12-09-11 15:57 #
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Vordakk
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fraggle said:
You on the other hand are cosmically ignorant.

Seriously, go down to your local library and borrow a book on ethics so you actually learn the basics, because it's obvious you don't have a clue about what you're trying to talk about. If you can't muster the attention span to read an entire book, perhaps you could try watching some Youtube videos on the subject instead.



All you're good for is drive-by insults, Fraggle. Care to address why you believe I'm so ignorant, or are you gonna stick to what you know best and keep slinging mud?

Old Post 12-09-11 16:11 #
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Snakes
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You have this fascinating inability to reply to posts that actually make valid counterpoints. It comes of as a conscious decision to only respond to the ones who, in some mild way, attack your intellect (similar to your attitude towards Sodaholic). As a result, I (and probably many people) have come to the conclusion that attempting use things like "logic" and "rationality" in a debate with you is a waste of time. So forgive me if I don't respond to your nonsensical assertions in regards to ethics.

EDIT: After re-reading the entire thread, I've omitted the part where I mention that you have a degree of intelligence. Instead, I'd like to close this post with a different observation - that you're arrogant, stubborn, and have quite a barbaric point of view when it comes to the scheme of things.

Last edited by Snakes on 12-09-11 at 17:32

Old Post 12-09-11 16:34 #
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Sodaholic
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We may not be able to argue effectively against your point to your standards, but we can still call you out for being sick and twisted in your motives for mutilating corpses. Cosmic scale is fucking irrelevant, what's relevant is that the majority of people find it wrong, and secondly, doing so would've greatly increased tensions more so than it did in the middle east, greatly affecting the war effort.

I don't even know why I'm trying to convince you to try to see it from everyone else's view, even if you don't agree with it. You're too stubborn to admit that despite the fact that you wish that it happened, the simple fact is that it would've had horrible consequences despite your own attitude toward it.

What doesn't matter is your attitude, what matters is everyone else's attitude on it. Feel free to keep your ignorant and sick attitude, but understand that almost everyone else views it as a bad thing.

My point being that you should keep your disgusting ideas to yourself, and accept that no one else sees it that way.

I'm done here, I tried making you see things in a better way, but you're too damn conservative and arrogant to change.

Old Post 12-09-11 16:35 #
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dew
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Vordakk said:
...but that still doesn't make them cosmically valid. So I'll ask the throng again, "What(in absolute terms) makes your ethics right and mine wrong if some bearded omnipotent superbeing didn't set the rules?"

why the fuck would i need a cosmically valid set of ethics? i'll start using the prime directive of the united federation of planets once i operate on cosmic scale. i don't need to include the sun and stars and the prime mover into my personal mythos to conclude that mutilating a corpse to get back at terrorists is sick and counter-productive, or that i should not steal and rape and kill. you probably know the word "meme" only as a term for funny injokes and unfunny 4chan pictures, but memes work in a society like genes in nature - the beneficial ones survive and parents or other role models teach them to their children. an ethical code that survives more or less the same in the vast majority of the mankind for several thousands of years is a pretty strong meme, so my internal heuristics tell me it's probably right and i should observe it.

Old Post 12-09-11 17:05 #
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fraggle
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Vordakk said:


All you're good for is drive-by insults, Fraggle. Care to address why you believe I'm so ignorant

You're ignorant because your arguments are flimsy and not really based on anything. In intellectual terms they're essentially the equivalent of the kind of nonsense spewed by bible-bashing preachers eager to tell everyone how there's "no morality without gawwwwwd!". Your beliefs might not be the same but your reasoning is the same amateurish, uninformed level.

But if you want to know what my objections are to your arguments, I guess my main objection is that you haven't really made any. You haven't really provided any meaningful or coherent definitions for what you're talking about, so your arguments just boil down to pointless posturing - "everything's meaningless, I win!". Your "victory" is an empty one because you haven't really proved or argued anything.

Old Post 12-09-11 17:12 #
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DooMAD
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Vordakk said:
Atheists have absolutely no ground to even attempt to bash someone else's ethics, because they create their own code of morality and it's only relevant to them.

Pretty sure everyone is allowed to bash everyone else's moral code here, it's called freedom of expression.


Vordakk said:Responses ITT tend to be limited to, "Our ethics are right because they are widely accepted and they are necessary for civilized society", but that still doesn't make them cosmically valid. So I'll ask the throng again, "What(in absolute terms) makes your ethics right and mine wrong if some bearded omnipotent superbeing didn't set the rules?"

It doesn't matter if a superbeing set the rules or not, we're still allowed to insult your moral code. Obfuscating the issue with religious nonsense isn't going to convince anyone that your opinions about mutilating corpses is in any way remotely healthy or normal. There are no "absolute terms". People here have decided that they don't like your moral code and they're perfectly entitled to that opinion. Get used to it.

But be honest, do you really, honestly believe they should have "pissed down the corpse's throat and then fed him to mongrel dogs"? Or do you just get a kick out of the ensuing argument?

Old Post 12-09-11 17:18 #
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Vordakk
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DooMAD said:

Pretty sure everyone is allowed to bash everyone else's moral code here, it's called freedom of expression.




Sodaholic said:

My point being that you should keep your disgusting ideas to yourself



So to sum things up, everyone's allowed freedom of expression...except me. Got it.

Old Post 12-09-11 18:43 #
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Maes
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Vordakk said:
So to sum things up, everyone's allowed freedom of expression...except me. Got it.


I always like it when a debate adversary is brought to the point of openly admitting that "Yeah, I am pro-freedom of expression and all that shit, as long as your opinion suits me", or the equally bullshit "Having the freedom to say something, doesn't mean you should say it".

Then it ain't really freedom, amirite?

Old Post 12-09-11 18:47 #
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Darkman 4
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Vordakk said:




So to sum things up, everyone's allowed freedom of expression...except me. Got it.



Posts here are trying to tell you that your views are wrong, but instead you keep thinking everything is a personal attack against you and are completely unwilling to even do a basic reexamination of your views.

Old Post 12-09-11 18:57 #
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DooMAD
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Vordakk said:

So to sum things up, everyone's allowed freedom of expression...except me. Got it.


Feel free to quote the part where I said that you weren't allowed an opinion. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, most of us just happen to hold the opinion that it's wrong. Your ethical viewpoint versus our own individual ethical viewpoints, not the end of the world like you make it out to be.

Would it help if we added the qualifier "In our opinion" before saying "your views are wrong"? Even though that's kind of implied.

Old Post 12-09-11 19:10 #
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Maes
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Darkman 4 said:
Posts here are trying to tell you that your views are wrong, but instead you keep thinking everything is a personal attack against you


TBQH the way in which they are telling him this appears to be far from detached, neutral, well-meaning and diplomatic.

Old Post 12-09-11 19:10 #
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dew
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Vordakk said:
So to sum things up, everyone's allowed freedom of expression...except me. Got it.

bitch, please. playing the oppressed victim, really? i've yet to see anyone taking the ability to post from you, so your freedom to express moronic opinions hasn't been violated. however it's our privilege to tell you what we think about them, so don't mistake being a silenced prophet and being an unpopular douchebag.

maes: that's a joke, right? or are you really oppressing my right to express my feelings?

Old Post 12-09-11 19:18 #
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Maes
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Well, the very least this means that Vordakk is entitled to counter-accuse everyone of being an irritating cunt and a douchebag themselves, since if they are entitled to call his opinions moronic and himself a "bitch", well, he can also do the same, and they can do the same etc. etc.

Also known as "flaming" ;-)

The problem is that if at least one party doesn't yield or the thread isn't closed, such "flamewars" can go on for as long as the "flamewarriors" are willing to push the envelope before breaking down or making a "loser's mistake". Kinda like snapping or playing the dozens. It all boils down to having steel nerves, witty responses/retorts and a massive bronze/trollface.

Old Post 12-09-11 19:21 #
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Darkman 4
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Maes said:


TBQH the way in which they are telling him this appears to be far from detached, neutral, well-meaning and diplomatic.



To be fair, it's not easy being detached and diplomatic when the person you're trying to talk to is constantly ignoring your points or misunderstanding them. :P

Old Post 12-09-11 19:51 #
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Maes
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Darkman 4 said:
To be fair, it's not easy being detached and diplomatic when the person you're trying to talk to is constantly ignoring your points or misunderstanding them. :P


Well, that's true :-p It's all part of the game.

Old Post 12-09-11 19:53 #
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Danarchy
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In my eleven years of posting here, I have never once used the ignore button, but fuck it, Vordakk's blatant hateful trolling shitting up all the threads here recently is just pissing me off.

Old Post 12-09-11 19:56 #
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lupinx-Kassman
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Vordakk said:
but no one has yet been able to argue effectively against my point.


Quite the contrary. You just happen to pick and choose those arguments you feel you can misconstrue, and have ignored all those you couldn't.

Old Post 12-09-11 20:05 #
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Phobus
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Maes said:
...or making a "loser's mistake"...

Thing is, he's made so many of these, and clearly ignored all of the replies that are just logical destructions of his arguments that it really is a case that reading and replying to his replies is as good as (if not exactly) feeding a troll.

Old Post 12-09-11 20:06 #
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