Bridge Stolen in Poland, Sold for Scrap

hardcore_gamer said:

Ever since showering multiculturalism and political correctness with praise became a popular trend.

This sort of "multiculturalism" that Anglo-Saxon/Western European media seem to flaunt simply doesn't fly in the Balkans, and we don't have the luxury of pretending to be friends with a bunch of rag-tag Albanian robbers and Gypsy thieves.

Multiculturalism is promoted by the sorts of people who either see different cultures as meaning different foods or who think all things are a matter of opinion (ie. arts majors).

Sure, I'm all pro-multiculturalism too if it means bangin' nice big-titted Nordic MILFs and innocent-looking blond Swiss shepherd girls, who wouldn't. But *sniff sniff* who are those brown SOBs? (Heh...the Imp description from Doom now will never be the same).

Maybe to some citizens of the U.S. of A. it may seem incredible how there can be countries with a white majority but no "white guilt" to go with it. But OTOH these countries never had an "Uncle Tom's cabin and watermelons" culture, either, so there are exactly zero reasons to feel guilty about.

Aliotroph? said:

Multiculturalism is promoted by the sorts of people who either see different cultures as meaning different foods

It completely baffles my mind how people (I guess mostly Westerners) can believe that simply eating foreign food or listening to foreign music somehow makes them multicultural.

I guess the British empire was multicultural then, because the English imported all kinds of luxury shit from all over their colonies back to their homeland where they enjoyed them. After all, its not like trade pre-dates multiculturalism or anything. No, before multiculturalism came along everyone listened only to their own music, only ate their own food, and only read their own books. Right?

Hilariously enough, the implications behind these claims are actually fairly racist.

Asian: You will have to adopt Asian culture if you are to live here.

Westerner: Oh! But thanks to multiculturalism back in my homeland I already know almost everything about Asian culture!

Asian: You do?

Westerner? Yea, I mean I eat noodles like twice a week!

Asian: .............

"Multiculturalism" literally means "the concept of many/multiple cultures", and someone is "multicultural" if he actually belongs or is composed of many cultures.

By that definition of the term, I'm multicultural too, because I actually have Greek/Italian heritage, and I'm exposed to some degree to the customs of both cultures. I also carry a lot of Balkan traits so I could play that card too whenever it's convenient. Yeah, it's not as cool or hip as being e.g. black or Jamaican, but what can I do....

But some hipster in New York/London that has never even left his/her own country, and thinks that being "multicultural" and "multiethnic" means wearing hippie clothing and an "ethnic" necklace and sandals, burning incense and making their hair into dreadlocks while listening to Manu Chao (Porsche Monty's "favourite") and trowing in some random slogans like "Ya basta!" and "Hasta la victoria siempre"? Not even close.

hardcore_gamer said:
It completely baffles my mind how people (I guess mostly Westerners) can believe that simply eating foreign food or listening to foreign music somehow makes them multicultural.

In a culture that basically attempts to turn anything into merchandise, that trivializing definition actually seems appropriate.

But multiculturalism is a postwar movement that revindicates the right to nonhegemonic cultures within nations where they occur, and policies that aim in that direction. It's pretty inevitable to different degrees depending on the context to avoid segregation or cultural or racial domination. Fascists and conservatives tend to not like it much, naturally, and their reactions to it are generally in line with the mockery in Maes' and Aliotroph's responses above, respectively.

The concept is pretty similar to that of freedom of religion or consciousness, but broader, as it branches out to more material social aspects and not just conscious choice or will. Freedom of religion and consciousness start out as a good basis for it, but are then more or less included in it when it develops.

myk said:

Fascists and conservatives tend to not like it much, naturally, and their reactions to it are generally in line with the mockery in Maes' and Aliotroph's responses above, respectively.

A mockery well deserved, may I add. There may be a few activists who actually really give a damn about e.g. the Peruvian Indians, or the Mexican Campesinos, but the vast majority of those that self-identify as "multicultural" just try too hard to look like the mishmash I already described above.

And it's not just "conservatives and fascists" that criticize such try-too-hard wannabes: how about a native American Indian scholar getting pissed off at all the wannabe-ism?

Maes said:
A mockery well deserved, may I add.

If you had mocked a twisted derivative of multiculturalism I would have said nothing, but instead you defined multiculturalism by the stereotypes used against it.

A touch of irony here is that perhaps Ward Churchill may be a "native wannabe".

One day NYC is going to wake up to a missing Statue of Liberty. ;)

hex11 said:

One day NYC is going to wake up to a missing Statue of Liberty. ;)

Whatever, that statue is a sad reminder of what liberty was before those buildings behind it fell down.

I agree with myk that Maes' interpretation of multiculturalism is wrong. What's he's describing is dumb, unintentionally racist white kids trying to appropriate a culture for their own because it's cool. That's not representative of multiculturalism at all.

Darkman 4 said:

I agree with myk that Maes' interpretation of multiculturalism is wrong. What's he's describing is dumb, unintentionally racist white kids trying to appropriate a culture for their own because it's cool. That's not representative of multiculturalism at all.

Its not representative of multiculturalism in the same way Stalin, Castro and Mao are not representative of communism. Yet guess which people shaped the way most people think of communism.

I believe multiculturalism will fail for the same reason communism did, its a nice ideal that sounds good on paper but then devolves into a terrible clusterfuck that doesn't really resemble the original thing a while after its been applied to reality.

OK, so how does a "multiculturalist" that doesn't look like a failed 2000s rehash of the 70s hippies look like? Can you be a "multiculturalist" if you are, e.g. a 100% Icelander? Can any African immigrant in en European capital classify as "multicultural" or just the (local) people who think he's something special?

The term "multicultural" tries too hard to attach a positive bias to phenomena such as economical immigration and the third world poverty that causes it, and tries to portray (select groups of) foreigners as underdogs towards which to be sympathetic. A German living in France would hardly be considered worthy of "multicultural appreciation" in the same way of a (black) Jamaican.

It kind of like the converse of the term "extracommunitarian" used in the EU. The latter means literally "from outside of the EU" but in practice it would never be applied to a USA, Iceland or Swiss citizen, even though they technically are from outside of the EU: what the term really means is "from outside the EU AND from a poor-ass shithole we would rather do without".

Multiculturalism is an issue these days here in Sweden. Nationalists call it a Jewish experiment to take over Europe while pro-Zionists like Breivik called it "Eurabia", meaning that the Muslims will invade Europe and take over the continent through immigration.

Whatever the truth is behind the multicultural idea may be, I do not support it and never will.

Real multiculturist = cosmopolitan, but this only applies to an individual. Some big port cities like NYC, San Francisco, etc. could sort of be considered multicultural, but you end up with ghettos, etc.

hex11 said:

Some big port cities like NYC, San Francisco, etc. could sort of be considered multicultural, but you end up with ghettos, etc.

Because multiculturalism is what caused white flight? Are you kidding me?

It's obvious and simple that people of the same culture will tend to stick together in a foreign land. That's why you have the Chinatowns and equivalents. Trying to paint this in another way is disingenuous.

hardcore_gamer said:
Its not representative of multiculturalism in the same way Stalin, Castro and Mao are not representative of communism. Yet guess which people shaped the way most people think of communism.

While those three are leaders and they represent the political systems they led, the stereotypes you guys used don't illustrate multicultural policies, just the stereotypes you see on TV or the half-assed idea a couple of drunks may share at the bar.

Maes said:
OK, so how does a "multiculturalist" that doesn't look like a failed 2000s rehash of the 70s hippies look like?

I fail to see how tons of politicians, statesmen, NGOs and citizens of different types supporting multicultural policies need to be depicted by the image of a hippie or why '70s hippies are in particular an image of ridicule.

The term "multicultural" tries too hard to attach a positive bias to phenomena such as economical immigration

As if the people rejecting immigrants gave a shit about what their States are doing in other places to help attract said immigrants. If Europeans and US citizens don't like the arrival of poorer immigrants, they need to address their foreign policy, not hypocritically expect some of its aspects to go away by building a wall against the immediate effects of that policy. It's like leaving the bathtub tap open and closing the bathroom door to try to stop the water from flooding the rest of the house.

and the third world poverty that causes it,

Instead of dumping that poverty in a river or a gas chamber, you mean?

and tries to portray (select groups of) foreigners as underdogs towards which to be sympathetic.

Multiculturalism is mostly the result of these "underdogs" claiming human rights. You're treating whatever Western reflexion there is to these claims as supposedly malign. There are some hypocrisies and deviations in various such policies in the West, but that mostly has to do with people that think like you or others trying to thwart or dilute them, and not parties frankly supporting multicultural policy.

A German living in France would hardly be considered worthy of "multicultural appreciation" in the same way of a (black) Jamaican.

In other words, it's not a magic wand that eliminates all differences and inequalities, just policies that aim to alleviate the latter.

MRB_Doom said:
Whatever the truth is behind the multicultural idea may be, I do not support it and never will.

Aha, so you're not sure what it is, heard two different types of fascists talk shit about it, and decided to join them against it?!

hex11 said:
Trying to paint this in another way is disingenuous.

What you did was note people of certain cultures are used to hanging out with each other, which not being questioned and doesn't define multiculturalism. Multiculturalism results from culture clashes and seeks a less backward alternative to two things; segregation (exclusive tribal behavior) and assimilation by hegemonic cultures. Both differences in culture and equality in human value are important to it, so that people can develop their cultural qualities freely and be able to respect each other and interact at the same time.

Muticulturalism is not restricted to cities because you also need to address many conflicts and issues that occur in the countryside. The national and cultural rights of the native populations of American counties is one evident example of (mostly) non-cosmopolitan demands for multicultural policy.

myk said:

Aha, so you're not sure what it is, heard two different types of fascists talk shit about it, and decided to join them against it?!

I meant the universal truth behind multiculturalism. Here in Stockholm the suburbs / förorterna are mainly populated by immigrants or religious minorities. They were "put there" as a part of the Million program that started around the early 1950s.

I do not share the graphic expressions about multiculturalism like the other two guys you are referring to but ever since I was born I have lived in a multicultural city namely Stockholm, and the positive experiences from it are at a 20 % rate in total.

Sure there were some non-European students in the schools I attended and I even hung out with some of them that were in my class. But do I support multiculturalism for that? No. I just got a positive impression of those guys and girls.

And no, that does not make me a hypocrite. I was not given the choice to live in a homogenous country / city / borough or the opposite (multicultural).

I will go as far as to call the large amount of immigrants coming to Sweden as an all out occupation. Ultimately the Swedish people will have enough of their pathetic politicians sitting in the Riksdag and will revolt against them.

There will be a civil war unless this country creates a balance between it's ethnic population and the immigrants.

From what I read, over 80% of the population of Sweden is Swedish ethnically, so you sound messed up by reacting like you do. I don't think I've gotten the same impression about immigrants from many other Swedes I've chatted with.

MRB_Doom said:

There will be a civil war unless this country creates a balance between it's ethnic population and the immigrants.

Civil war in Sweden? That's a good one. :D

The problem isn't so much multiculturalism but with communautarianism.

Basically, the attitude that:

I'm a legal citizen of Somecountry, but I am not a Somecountrian. My family comes from Othercountry so I am an Othercountrian regardless of what my ID card and birth place say. Also, I don't like Somecountrians, and Somecountrians don't like me, and I won't try to mingle with them, instead I'll try to recreate a little zone of Othercountry here in Somecountry where we'll live in isolation from the Somecountrian majority and try to ignore their laws and follow Othercountrian laws instead.

Or in less words, the issue isn't so much that immigrants keep their culture, it's that they reject the host nation's.

This utterly destroys any sort of national cohesion and identity. If you start going with that, you can as well dismantle the nation entirely, it is not needed. What you want is a loose federation of independent tribes.

myk said:

From what I read, over 80% of the population of Sweden is Swedish ethnically, so you sound messed up by reacting like you do. I don't think I've gotten the same impression about immigrants from many other Swedes I've chatted with.

That's your opinion of me and I respect it.

In order to get views on multiculturalism in Sweden, you have to "chat" or talk to Swedes via Skype whether they are from the left, middle or the right. I don't know what kind of Swedes you've been chatting with, maybe you can tell me in your reply to this post.

But I do think it's important to note that there is a growing opposition to this kind of society, especially from nationalists, who are always being compared to neo-Nazis in the Swedish press.

The Swedish identity no longer exists because the people of this country have only one thing in common: consume. This American junk culture that has spread here over the last couple of decades is not exactly making Sweden a more intriguing place to visit.

I will not accept the multicultural society in Sweden just because it's politically correct to do so. Maybe you should visit Stockholm and it travel through the suburbs or even visit Göteborg / Gothenburg and it's suburbs. And of course there is Rosengård in Malmö.

Believe it or not, this country is falling apart and degrading itself to "The Shores of Hell".

Immigration also has a geopolitical aspect: how do you suppose the million+ pakis, baglandeshis etc. got into Greece in the first place? Through Turkey, with the tolerance if not the outright cooperation of the Turkish authorities, who are more than happy to place a brown, smelly burden on their "enemies": each one that they manage to push out of the window, is "scoring" against us.

Frontex? That thing is a fucking joke, just a fund-leeching organization that pretends they're patrolling borders for illegal immigrants, in reality they are just a confy job for wannabe mercs with good connections.

Makes you wonder exactly what drives them away from a country which should, in theory, be closer culturally, religiously, economically more prosperous (at this time) and thus more attractive to them, if not a policy of drowning us in a flood of brown SOBs and ruining our economy and internal order in the (not so long) run.

I simply propose that we become just as heavy-handed as their own governments or that of Turkey: simply put, they adopt a "slap and jackboot" treatment towards such undesirables, so they should get exactly the same in ours, especially if they are not exactly hard-working creme de la creme, as some leftists want to present them. Rather, most of them end up fueling the various beggary and criminal rackets.

MRB_Doom said:

Ultimately the Swedish people will have enough of their pathetic politicians sitting in the Riksdag and will revolt against them.

What's wrong with registering your opposition at the ballot box, by voting for candidates who's views on multiculturalism are closer to your own?

But I do think it's important to note that there is a growing opposition to this kind of society, especially from nationalists, who are always being compared to neo-Nazis in the Swedish press.

Neo-Nazism borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including militant nationalism, fascism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia and anti-Semitism.

I think the press have got it right.

GreyGhost said:

What's wrong with registering your opposition at the ballot box, by voting for candidates who's views on multiculturalism are closer to your own?

Neo-Nazism borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including militant nationalism, fascism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia and anti-Semitism.

I think the press have got it right.

I do not have a problem with people voting for candidates that express the same views on multiculturalism. That's fine. Except that this left / right paradigm is beginning to collapse and the Swedish people want something new, rather than just voting for the same parties all the time.

All nationalism can't be compared with neo-Nazism. The kind of nationalism I am referring to is simply pro-Swedes and pro-Swedish interests first. How is that neo-Nazism?

I'm not saying deport all immigrants immediately. What I'm saying is that the multicultural experiment is failing miserably and the politicians over here don't know how to solve this problem any time soon.

If someone here lives in a multicultural country, please share your experiences with it so we can learn from each other.

Japan is a very homogenous country and can someone tell me what the Japanese would say if their state would allow large immigration all of a sudden?

Just to make an example.

MRB_Doom said:

The kind of nationalism I am referring to is simply pro-Swedes and pro-Swedish interests first. How is that neo-Nazism?

Amen. It's that double standard and supposed "white guilt" that's stangling the EU, whenever someone starts saying "In country X, nationals of X should somehow come first".

When being an illegal immigrant grants you automatically more rights and less obligations than resident nationals, then something's definitively wrong with the laws or the way they are (or are not) implemented.

And I'm not speaking about some mild "affirmative action" here like giving immigrant pupils maybe 0.5 marks more out of sympathy, I'm talking about real penal and financial advantages: an illegal immigrant doesn't have to pay taxes (in a time where everybody and the cat has to pay higher taxes).

An immigrant arrested for even a violent crime, as long as he's illegal, can't be condemned and locked up in a Greek jail (!) but will instead be expelled (actually, given a month to expel himself, which of course he won't do), like that's gonna stop him from returning. And because their countries of origins are shitholes that could do with less miserables and are all too happy to get rid of them, there's exactly zero cooperation on the legal/penal front.

Ironically, a policeman will hesitate less to beat up a Greek national, than an immigrant, for fear of being called racist!

For the rest, the illegal immigrants children will keep enjoying unemployment benefits, free education, and no-questions-asked free healthcare. Somehow, being illegal has come to grant you more rights than a resident or even a legal immigrant(!), giving a sort of perverse incentive to "keep em comin'!". I say it's time to "Start sortin' them!" instead... some the easy way, some the hard way.

@myk: you have problems of your own down there, but you are not in a delicate geopolitical situation as we are. And while you might also have some form of immigration, it will mostly be from people that at the very least speak your language and share your religion, for all it's worth.

Multiculturalism is definitely bullshit.

I urge you all to try and get hold of Jonathan Meades' TV work for the BBC.

"In Britain, what is recklessly celebrated as "cultural diversity" , "vibrant cultural diversity", is actually a form of apartheid."

He's right. If you position "culture" above everything else, you pigeonhole individuals. You trap them in their roots. Roots are for vegetables.

On topic, I work on a country estate where we had 78 pieces of scaffolding nicked by bandits the other night. I am sick of metal thieves. The scum of the earth drive up and down the roads round here most days in their knackered Ford Transits looking for something to take. I've had a look at the CCTV and if I should ever happen to catch them at it the scaffolding will be going where the sun don't shine.

lol I download metal an dont pay

pritch said:

I've had a look at the CCTV and if I should ever happen to catch them at it the manly magnum buckshot will be going where the sun don't shine.

FTFY <3