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Dragonsbrethren
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Carnevil said:
Well, I don't think it's a problem. Torchlight was all different colored dungeons and the vast majority of people (myself included) ate it up.

It is a problem, though. I like Wrack's gameplay, but the indoor environments are already getting old after E1M2-E1M5. I'm talking about their architecture, not specifically their design or gameplay. Also, yeah, the later levels have new textures, but at a quick glance they're just look like recolors of the existing texture set.

Remember how awesome getting to go outside in Doom E1 was? Or how E1M6 felt like an entirely different place from the previous levels because it started out outside? I mean, even look at Wrack: There's awesome contrast between E1M1 and E1M2. That contrast doesn't really exist between E1M3 and E1M4, even though the textures and gameplay gimmicks change, they could very well be part of the same place.

(Speaking of contrast, though, I'm really glad you toned down the M4-M5 textures. They were hideously garish before, now they're looking a lot better.)

Old Post 01-25-13 18:44 #
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Gez
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hardcore_gamer said:
I might check this game out of it is released on STEAM.


That'll be a problem because ever since Steam introduced the "Greenlight" system, indie developers need to get a million vote before they get accepted.

Old Post 01-25-13 19:08 #
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Carnevil
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Gez said:


That'll be a problem because ever since Steam introduced the "Greenlight" system, indie developers need to get a million vote before they get accepted.


They actually seem to be going by a "Let's just take whoever has the most votes right now" type of system now, so it's all relative. The real problem is the snail's pace at which they greenlight games - about 1 per week. Hypothetically, if you're #100 and nobody leapfrogs one another, you're talking about it taking two years to get greenlit. That's quite a long time for an indie developer who, without Steam, likely doesn't have a lot of income coming in. It's rough.


Dragonsbrethren said:


Remember how awesome getting to go outside in Doom E1 was? Or how E1M6 felt like an entirely different place from the previous levels because it started out outside?


Nope. All of Doom E1 feels pretty much the same to me. Outside of E1M8, if you showed me a random screenshot from the episode, the only way I'd be able to tell you which level it's from is because I've played it a bunch. I realize that's sacrilege here, but it's the truth. Even then, going outside was a novelty back then which was interesting, but after 20 years has worn off. There are lots of games that have outdoor areas (like Rage), and I'm not exactly playing them going "HOLY SHIT I'M OUTSIDE!". It's only interesting insofar as it adds diversity and contrast, which we've done plenty of.

Old Post 01-25-13 19:55 #
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Jodwin
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Carnevil said:
Well, I don't think it's a problem. Torchlight was all different colored dungeons and the vast majority of people (myself included) ate it up.

Irrelevant comparison. Level design is extremely important in an FPS game, but it's pretty much the least relevant thing in a Diablo clone.

Old Post 01-25-13 20:03 #
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esselfortium
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I'm not sure if trying to elevate your game by diminishing the value of Doom is going to win you a lot of favor on a Doom forum. I mean, in general trying to elevate your work by trying to bring better things down to your level (which you've done quite a bit of in this thread, with the comparisons to Torchlight and Super Meat Boy) isn't a very good plan, but that in particular seems like a really poorly thought-out strategy.

Given that your game concept is effectively Doom + platforming, it's significant that virtually every discussion of it with Doom fans (who should be representative of your intended audience) inevitably comes down to the same few complaints, but you blow them off completely every time. There comes a certain point where it makes more sense to look at the people telling you you're doing something critically wrong and acknowledge that they might have a point, rather than trying in vain to convince them that other things they like are really just as mediocre.

FWIW, though, Doom's levels didn't consist predominantly of flat box rooms or copied-and-pasted scenes, and varied significantly in scale and shape. This is not a difficult concept to understand. When comparing to Doom 2 (and why not?) your comparison falls even flatter.

Last edited by esselfortium on 01-25-13 at 22:17

Old Post 01-25-13 21:35 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Essel nailed it, you have a killer engine but you really should consider what Essel is saying about height variation and level design and also looking to hire other mappers to create more diversity in level design.

Old Post 01-25-13 21:52 #
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Tarnsman
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Carnevil said:

I shit you not!

TEXTURE SET 1: E1M1 (introduction, moving platforms)

TEXTURE SET 2: E1M2, E1M3 (toxic barrels and floors)

TEXTURE SET 3: E1M4, E1M5 (conveyor belts and smashing walls)

TEXTURE SET 4: E1M6, E1M6', E1M7 (force fields)

... and the finale will likely have some new textures too, but mostly it will be a recapitulation of the episode, so it'll use a lot of textures from the previous levels.

Also, E1M4/5 will look a hell of a lot better in the next update (like they do in that shot). That should help differentiate those two maps from the rest a bunch.



Carn, like I've said before there is a good game hidden somewhere in Wrack and the visual style is great, but...
1. Square Green Metal Texture A and Square Brown Metal Texture B do not constitute different texture sets, rather they are different texture variants.

2. Architecturally there is nearly no difference between any of the levels, yeah I may shift from running around in a gray-blueish box to running around in a tan box but you know what? I'm still running around in a box.

3. Introducing new concepts like "barrels" and shit is not a feature, it's basic design 101. It's like saying a movie containing a third act is a feature.

Old Post 01-26-13 00:37 #
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Carnevil
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@essel: I don't expect lifetime hardcore Doom fans to embrace Wrack. I think to an extent, it's like music taste. Most people like what they grew up with, and to convince another generation that "My music is best! You should like this!" is pretty futile. As much as I would love to have the hardcore Doom community behind this, it's probably for the best that it's not - it's just not big enough, and their taste is probably mutually exclusive with that of most gamers. Thankfully, there are vastly more open-minded casual Doom fans out there (hello!) who would be more willing to embrace something like Wrack, Painkiller, Serious Sam, etc. (the latter two of which have done fine).

So if you're on board... great! Let's make Wrack as great of a game as it can be. But if you're just going to hate everything I do no matter what... don't you have better things to do?

Old Post 01-26-13 01:53 #
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DeathevokatioN
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You'll actually see helpful feedback and constructive criticism if you read more into what Essel is trying to say. As someone that wants this project to be as good as it can be and wishes you luck, I can see the same flaws that Essel points to in the level design.

Old Post 01-26-13 02:06 #
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schwerpunk
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[EDIT: baleeted. DeathevokatioN said it better.]

I understand if you want to stick to your vision, Carnevil. But I do think some of the feedback from Essel and others could be implemented without compromising your vision or alienating so-called 'casual' Doom fans.

Last edited by schwerpunk on 01-26-13 at 02:23

Old Post 01-26-13 02:18 #
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Carnevil
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DeathevokatioN said:
You'll actually see helpful feedback and constructive criticism if you read more into what Essel is trying to say. As someone that wants this project to be as good as it can be and wishes you luck, I can see the same flaws that Essel points to in the level design.


Oh I do. That room in that first screenshot I posted: That room was originally completely flat on the rough draft. I thought back to some of what was said, and decided to add some stairs and have the center dip down, and thought it added a lot. Was it attacked anyway? Of course, but that's not really what's important. Similarly, there's another area in the map where I added a fairly steep staircase with monsters at the top which is certainly an improvement over the original.

This is certainly the best map so far, and the others are continuing to improve as well.

Old Post 01-26-13 02:21 #
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esselfortium
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Carnevil said:


Oh I do. That room in that first screenshot I posted: That room was originally completely flat on the rough draft. I thought back to some of what was said, and decided to add some stairs and have the center dip down, and thought it added a lot. Was it attacked anyway? Of course, but that's not really what's important. Similarly, there's another area in the map where I added a fairly steep staircase with monsters at the top which is certainly an improvement over the original.

This is certainly the best map so far, and the others are continuing to improve as well.


I think the first logical step here would probably be to stop acting like criticism of your work is a personal attack.

Old Post 01-26-13 02:39 #
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Carnevil
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esselfortium said:

I think the first logical step here would probably be to stop acting like criticism of your work is a personal attack.




esselfortium said earlier:

It almost has height variation in it?


Doesn't sound mean-spirited at all...

There's a difference between being like "While my tastes are different and all, here's how I think things could be improved" and what you're doing.

Old Post 01-26-13 03:15 #
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esselfortium
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Well, it's not as though this exact conversation has been had countless times before.

Old Post 01-26-13 03:19 #
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kristus
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That, and it's still not a reason to take it personal. Because someone got a snarky attitude about the game. Doesn't mean that you should take it personal. Try to distance yourself from your product. Makes it easier to maintain a reasoned perspective.

Old Post 01-26-13 03:22 #
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DuckReconMajor
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Carnevil said:
I don't expect lifetime hardcore Doom fans to embrace Wrack.
But aren't they part of the crowd you made the game for? It looks like you're getting worked up over this again. There's been good advice posted. I think it would be good if you found a way to use the suggestions provided without letting them affect you emotionally. Maybe take a long enough break to get to a more positive mental state. You're hungry. Grab a Snickers.

Old Post 01-26-13 03:35 #
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Carnevil
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DuckReconMajor said:
But aren't they part of the crowd you made the game for?

Certainly. It's not some monolithic group - some, like yourself and kristus, have embraced Wrack and come along for the ride and made some awesome stuff. That's a wonderful thing. My point is that if Wrack was exclusively intended for hardcore doomers to the point that we were dependent on such a small group of people... that would be a mistake. Even if they did all embrace it, we wouldn't be able to survive. I wish there were more of us (yes, I too am a hardcore doomer), but sadly that's not the case.

Because of this, I'm not terribly worried about not suiting the personal preferences of this group. Sure, I listen, and some of the advice is fundamentally sound and I take it, but a lot of it just boils down to preferences. A lot of you guys like irregularly shaped rooms - I get it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just not the aesthetic of Wrack, so don't be surprised if that doesn't get incorporated.

Old Post 01-26-13 04:12 #
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exp(x)


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Oh Carney, it's always been your way or the highway, hasn't it? I know your groupies make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but don't forget what happened with skulltag.

Old Post 01-26-13 04:28 #
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printz
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Actually, I agree with Carnevil. Except some clever secrets, Doom Episode 1 was just bland and too easy to impress me.

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Old Post 01-26-13 08:18 #
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Jodwin
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Carnevil said:
A lot of you guys like irregularly shaped rooms - I get it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just not the aesthetic of Wrack, so don't be surprised if that doesn't get incorporated.

You can do a lot of interesting rooms with just 90 and 45 degree corners as well. Besides, interesting layouts aren't a matter of personal preference, since they make the gameplay of the level objectively better. You're simply hurting yourself by ignoring level design advice from people with far more experience in it than you, while you should be taking that advice and incorporating it in Wrack where appropriate, Wrack-style. For example, rather than dismissing E1's designs right away, you should have looked at what worked in it and what didn't, and then tried to use tips from the good parts transformed into Wrack's style. No one here is saying that Wrack shouldn't be Wrack. Rather, we are just saying that Wrack could be an objectively better game while keeping its identity.

Old Post 01-26-13 09:25 #
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Phml
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It's all well and good to be acclaimed within your particular social group, but staying in your comfort zone should never be confused with having actual skill at a craft. Many of the naysayers here have released maps and mods some of us find to be directly opposite to sensible game design, or at the very least, incompatible with what we enjoy.

Old Post 01-26-13 13:02 #
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Shaviro
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In my opinion the diversity of levels has less to do with texture sets, the main colorscheme or the shapes of the level and more to do with the context. For instance, people are more likely to refer to a level by it's primary obstacle, feature, function or context.

"That level where you have to cross the gorge", "The level where you moved in zero-g", "That level on the train", "The level with the dam" or "The level where Mr. Someguy sets off the bomb".

If E1MSomething takes place in a waste facility, then the process of making the level is as much about logical planning as it is about mapping. Features, flow, visual style and play will start being shaped in a natural way that ensures the level comes out unique. Rooms with toxic waste have huge pipes connected to them. These pipes run through processing which consists of machinery treating the waste.

Random room is random room. No matter the color on the walls. Having a thorough plan for the level gives it character and helps establish a larger context for the game.

Another trick to differentiate the levels is to have a centerpiece. We do this a lot in Phobos. Each level has a centerpiece that is unique in the context of the mod. These serve as hubs or pivot points for the action and the flow of the level. They are also usually the most interesting areas visually and the ones you'll remember the best after having completed the level. They help brand each level.

Old Post 01-26-13 16:14 #
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Rulero
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I'm the texture artist on wrack for both levels and models.
Im usualy not active on this forum, because the overall pesimistic nature over here is kind of demotivating.

I'm open for advice and feedback on my work. but i find it a bit unfair if someone states the levels only include 5 textures. while for example the texturemap of e1m2 includes 165 different ones.

Also im aware of the fact that our level design can improve to some extend, but let it be known that we hired several people from the community after we have recieved the feedback on the level design. and then for whatever reason without communicating, people just vanish or quit. or fail to deliver a single level after weeks of time. While they get all the freedom they have to create somethin to their preferences.


This situation has happened over like four times.
In this situation we can do two things. we can either quit and throw evrything away, or we can keep our textures, music, sound, models, animations, and engine. and try to do the best we can until we find someone who can lend us a hand.

just my 2 cents

Old Post 01-26-13 20:19 #
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Enjay
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Well, for what it's worth, I like Wrack. I like the aesthetics and I enjoy the levels that have been made so far.

Old Post 01-26-13 22:35 #
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Jodwin
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Rulero said:
Also im aware of the fact that our level design can improve to some extend, but let it be known that we hired several people from the community after we have recieved the feedback on the level design. and then for whatever reason without communicating, people just vanish or quit. or fail to deliver a single level after weeks of time. While they get all the freedom they have to create somethin to their preferences.

In all seriousness, that's a very bad approach to getting new people to work on any professional project. Getting people to freelance with no strings attached and no duties is basically shooting yourself in the foot. That's essentially how all the community mapping projects here work (sans money being involved) and there's always people going off the radar over the course of the projects for whatever reasons. If you really want other people to contribute on the game, you need to be able make these people truly commit on the project one way or the other.

Old Post 01-27-13 00:04 #
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Carnevil
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@shaviro: Now THAT is some fundamentally sound advice! That actually gets at one of the principles of design - focus. You want to have something important that your eye is drawn to, and then have everything around support that. Everything shouldn't be of equal importance - that's boring. (If everything is important, nothing is important.) That's an important principle that transcends levels in FPS games.

Don't let the naysayers fool you, though - we are doing that. I may not have enough talent to always pull it off in spectacular fashion, but it is something I'm cognizant of and try to pull off. Take a look at that E1M6 screenshot earlier with the energy columns. Those are the focal point of the room, and to a large degree, the level.

@Enjay: Thanks man! :) Glad you're enjoying it! Plenty more to come, and we're making what's already there even better as well.

Old Post 01-27-13 00:46 #
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Rulero
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Jodwin said:

In all seriousness, that's a very bad approach to getting new people to work on any professional project. Getting people to freelance with no strings attached and no duties is basically shooting yourself in the foot. That's essentially how all the community mapping projects here work (sans money being involved) and there's always people going off the radar over the course of the projects for whatever reasons. If you really want other people to contribute on the game, you need to be able make these people truly commit on the project one way or the other.



If you get feedback, you try to find ways to improve on it. as a lot of people here seem to know exactly how the levels need to be build. why not look here?. Myself being a doomer as well and i havent run away yet. Carnevil's company is not some triple A company with millions to spend to hire some veteran game designers wich demand a full 1500 dollar loan each month. And you have to start somewhere. And as a payed position it can turn out great. Freelancing doesnt mean there is no staying power. Our modeler and myself as texturer have been on the project for 3 years and longer.

Also the freedom i was talking about is not a bad thing at all. When i have to create a Tileset or a monster skin I'm told what kind of theme it needs to be. then i start tooling arround with ideas and once the sketching face gets approved i work it out. The theme and overal concept is set. but the direction, design, and color use i take it in is totally on my part.

I have my deadlines and my duties. we all get payed and have to sign contracts. all of us do. so i have no idea where you get the idea from that we are all running arround like headless chickens.
Nonetheless i wont hold you back expressing your opinions, and i appreciate you doing so

P.S excuses for my grammar im not a native speaker

Old Post 01-27-13 01:26 #
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Jodwin
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Rulero said:
I have my deadlines and my duties. we all get payed and have to sign contracts. all of us do. so i have no idea where you get the idea from that we are all running arround like headless chickens.
Nonetheless i wont hold you back expressing your opinions, and i appreciate you doing so


When your problem is people disappearing and not doing their jobs, it sounds a lot like those people are running around like headless chickens. Obviously I, nor anyone here who isn't part of the project, knows how the hiring is being handled. But what you said about the mappers not doing their jobs sounds like a managerial issue. As for freedom, freedom is great. However you still can have different degrees of freedom in a creative position like this, especially when you're working on the internet with people you've never met face to face. Point being, what works for you personally might not work for everyone else. Some people are fine with being given a job with minimal control from above, while others can't even get out of the bed without someone telling them to do so.

Old Post 01-27-13 07:17 #
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Rulero
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Jodwin said:

When your problem is people disappearing and not doing their jobs, it sounds a lot like those people are running around like headless chickens. Obviously I, nor anyone here who isn't part of the project, knows how the hiring is being handled. But what you said about the mappers not doing their jobs sounds like a managerial issue. As for freedom, freedom is great. However you still can have different degrees of freedom in a creative position like this, especially when you're working on the internet with people you've never met face to face. Point being, what works for you personally might not work for everyone else. Some people are fine with being given a job with minimal control from above, while others can't even get out of the bed without someone telling them to do so.



The managing is not my position inside the team. Yet im very sure it has not been a managing issue because evrything is handled very clearly, and just vanishing without any sign of communication while they have signed a contract has more to do with unproffesionalism from that person itself then the manager. in evry other aspect of the team. modelling. texturing. sounds. music. animations, and what not it all goes perfectly. The point being, There has been put a lot of effort in trying to improve on the levels with the help of others but so far it hasn't beared any fruit. Its always very easy to tell people how things are done while standing on the docks watching other people steering a ship. but it is not as easy as some make it sound to be.

Im not saying our game has no room for improvement but
The feedback on the internet and on gaming sites have been fairly positive with high ratings and expectations. Its only on this site where there seems to be a lot of concern regarding the levels, wich i do understand because people here are used to higher standards. i for one, maybe im not speaking for the whole team, but i think doomers are an important part even if it is just a small bit of players and not the main target,

I know you guys do care to some extend otherwise you wouldnt be here discussing the game. I really would like to have a great level designer on our team, At this point we just dont know where to find one that is as enthusiastic as the rest of the team.

Old Post 01-27-13 18:04 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Ok, so I saw that Wrack costs only 10 bucks and that you will get future content for free until the full game is released so I decided to buy it.

So far (I have beaten 3 or 4 levels I think. I just defeated that robo-tank thingy boss) my first impressions are mixed.

The biggest problem I have with this game is that there are too many enemies that are robots.

I know this is just a personal opinion, but robots just aren't fun to fight. I personally find that little robo-spider thing to be more annoying then fun to deal with. Killing them feels like a chore.

I found it much more fun to fight the actual organic soldiers. I strongly recommend that you create more enemies that are organic (though I will admit that because I have only completed 3-4 levels that perhaps I haven't seen all of the enemies yet).

Also, is there some kind of a machine gun in the game? Personally find that plasma thing to be rather un-fun to use, mostly because the projectiles don't travel in a straight line but instead fall to the ground.

Also, level design feels too samey. Simply having new textures every now and then doesn't make the actual levels different.

Overall, I would say that this game has lots of potential but that it hasn't fully taken advantage of it.

Old Post 01-27-13 18:13 #
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