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Rulero
Warming Up


Posts: 11
Registered: 06-09



hardcore_gamer said:
Ok, so I saw that Wrack costs only 10 bucks and that you will get future content for free until the full game is released so I decided to buy it.

So far (I have beaten 3 or 4 levels I think. I just defeated that robo-tank thingy boss) my first impressions are mixed.

The biggest problem I have with this game is that there are too many enemies that are robots.

I know this is just a personal opinion, but robots just aren't fun to fight. I personally find that little robo-spider thing to be more annoying then fun to deal with. Killing them feels like a chore.

I found it much more fun to fight the actual organic soldiers. I strongly recommend that you create more enemies that are organic (though I will admit that because I have only completed 3-4 levels that perhaps I haven't seen all of the enemies yet).

Also, is there some kind of a machine gun in the game? Personally find that plasma thing to be rather un-fun to use, mostly because the projectiles don't travel in a straight line but instead fall to the ground.

Also, level design feels too samey. Simply having new textures every now and then doesn't make the actual levels different.

Overall, I would say that this game has lots of potential but that it hasn't fully taken advantage of it.



There is a minigun and rocket launcher and guass gun on the way. the gore system that is currently in is a prototype. and it will be a lot messier in the future. The next update will also include breakable crates and explosive barrels with debris that wont dissapear from the battlefield. Also Level 4 and 5 have recieved a full texture overhaul. The lower arcturans ( the yellow skinned ones will get a new model to add some diversity to organic enemies. i will take not of some of your problems. thanks for the feedback!

Old Post 01-27-13 19:06 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Another thing I forgot to mention is that at the moment the enemy animations are too stiff. They look very simplistic, almost to a point of being robotic.

The animations for the alien soldiers almost remind me of those for the demons in the Risen3D port for Doom.

I think you would do well to make them look more convincing.

Old Post 01-27-13 19:31 #
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Enjay
ASK ME ABOUT FOOTBALL / STEAM / DEAD CELEBRITIES / THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT


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hardcore_gamer said:
The biggest problem I have with this game is that there are too many enemies that are robots.

I know this is just a personal opinion, but robots just aren't fun to fight. I personally find that little robo-spider thing to be more annoying then fun to deal with. Killing them feels like a chore.

I found it much more fun to fight the actual organic soldiers. I strongly recommend that you create more enemies that are organic (though I will admit that because I have only completed 3-4 levels that perhaps I haven't seen all of the enemies yet).


Well, like you said "personal opinion". And just to prove it, I personally love the robot enemies. :)

I'd be quite happy if the entire game only had robots to fight. I don't find anything particularly wrong with the organic enemies but they are just alien lizardmen again and I could take them or leave them. It is the robots that have really captured my imagination: from the little crawlers to the big crushers (Oh how I love the look and presence of the crushers). I think that they all have interesting designs. To me their cold, unfeeling "I am just following my orders programming" attempts to stop me make them all the more worth smashing into individual nuts and bolts.

Old Post 01-27-13 20:58 #
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Rulero
Warming Up


Posts: 11
Registered: 06-09



hardcore_gamer said:
Another thing I forgot to mention is that at the moment the enemy animations are too stiff. They look very simplistic, almost to a point of being robotic.

The animations for the alien soldiers almost remind me of those for the demons in the Risen3D port for Doom.

I think you would do well to make them look more convincing.



I only do texturing. and particle effects. i cant guarantee anything animation related,If you or anyone else have suggestions in terms of texuring or art i will take note of it and try to improve on it. For all the other things im sure either carnevil or the doom freak will read them too, and they might take note of it.

Old Post 01-27-13 21:05 #
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Tango
Senior Member


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carnevil why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot? it's not that fucking hard man

why do you keep dismissing good criticism as "hardcore doom fans i don't need to cater to etc etc etc." you've read books about fundamental game design and "focus" points & whatever but that's not the point that everyone is making about the level design. here essentially is the conversation i'm seeing (about a thousand times over bc stubborn carnbarn):

doomworld: "the engine seems really neat but the level design is too flat and samey"

carn: "no you're wrong there is a lot of variety look at e1m1 side by side with e1m2"

doomworld: "it's the exact same box with different textures"

carn: "you guys are too hardcore"

attention carnevil, we would fucking love to help you make your game succeed. here we have someone from the doom community who's trying to put himself into the industry, an industry that a lot of us feel too often neglects solid level design (or at least that's how i feel when i play modern games usually, much as i love the gameplay in some of them). so you can bet that we would urge you to right the wrongs that have seemingly become mainstream. you make yourself out to be some crusader against the industry, and like Wrack is some sort of rebellion against the modern fps, but even with an engine that feels more like quake, if you don't stop making boxes and boxes then you're doing all the same things wrong as the genre you're trying to "fix."

half of your audience won't appreciate good level design when they see it because they'll be too busy with "oh this is cool it's kinda like COD but different." but for those of us that do, it'd be nice to be able to play a game (one that we paid for, no less) and go "wow, the stellar level design compliments the fluid gameplay mechanics really well and clearly took a lot of creativity" and not "wow i could pull a better map out of my ass in a week if you gave me an editor."

having an editor is no excuse for lackluster level design in the main product though. ever played little big planet 2? different genre but the same concept applies here i feel. the abilities of that game('s editor) are about as endless as you can get on a console platforming game imo. but i didn't buy the game for its level editor, and similarly, when we think about purchasing Wrack, we hope that we're paying not for the chance to make our own game using an engine you've supplied, but that we're paying for a fucking great game. LBP2 is a great example of game developers including both an endlessly capable level editor and an amazing set of stock levels that show them off. as far as i've played into that game, every new stage (not to mention world/episode) either has a new gameplay element or takes it several steps further than the last level did. the first levels introduce the basics of the engine and running and jumping, then you get into grappling and moving environments, switches etc. further worlds introduce customizeable shooting gadgets, exploding elements, glove powerups, controllable creatures, and things like top-down arcade shooter sequences.

different game, different genre, but if you're boasting about cool new gameplay elements then you better fucking use them and use them creatively. Wrack doesn't need an R-Type sequence in it, but to me something like LBP is a prime example of variety in level design and gameplay and how each one should progress. but if we're paying for a game we expect you to make it as creative and original as possible, and move away from things like this.

imo you should be setting the bar, not telling us to set it ourselves.


Carnevil said:
A lot of you guys like irregularly shaped rooms - I get it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just not the aesthetic of Wrack, so don't be surprised if that doesn't get incorporated.


doesn't have to be irregular to be interesting, but i still don't understand why even you'd rule out non-square rooms. but ok, fine, i won't argue with that because some things are great with orthogonal angles only, but let's take for example this map from Scythe 2. with a few minor adjustments it would be just as orthogonal as everything in Wrack i've seen, but that layout looks infinitely more interesting (and subsequently is) than Torm-style hallway -> door -> hallway with feeble attempt at height variation via 32 px step down in center of room with 1 monster in it anyway -> repeat. something like the above shot in Scythe 2 is still pretty basic if you think about it. Erik added windows to adjacent areas, waterfalls, stairs, etc etc, AND an imo great "focus" point in the map. certainly i have some bias here because vines, but i think most would agree that Erik knows how to make things interesting while still remaining fairly basic.

i don't remember its name, but remember that alpha (demo?) of a colorful shooting game that was posted here a few months back? it looked really cool and i liked the art direction and the shooting elements, but as you would expect everybody was critical of its level design because the author had limited himself to, essentially, Wolf3d capabilities. that seems silly to me and to a lot of other members here, since, you know, there is a reason we're playing doom and not all still playing wolfenstein and modding that. give wolfenstein barrels and red forcefields and a secret explodable wall, etc etc, but the level design is still flat and extremely limited in capability. no matter how many different texture sets you put in wolfenstein, or how many weapons or forcefields, it will still always be flat.

Wrack felt great when i played it and i would really love to see it succeed. i would love for it to become popular and for all my friends to play it so i could say "now you can all stop fucking playing modern warfare 10,000," but unless you start listening to people about level design and stop dismissing our attempts to help you, you're going to end up selling just another Quake engine.

i know you have it in you carn, but for some reason you're ignoring the potential

Old Post 01-27-13 22:30 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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Just wanted to let you all know that we just put out a big preview for our forthcoming update! There's a lot of new stuff in it (new weapon, new level, new texture set) and a whole bunch of improvements. But hey, a picture is worth a thousand words, right?

http://www.wrackgame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/BETA0012-1024x576.png

You can check out the full preview here.

Anyway, I'm sure to some of you this is still completely terrible, but nonetheless I'd like to hear what you all think.

Old Post 02-05-13 17:56 #
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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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OMG REDCROSS

Old Post 02-05-13 18:07 #
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kristus
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I realize bazookas/rocket launchers do look quite like a long metal pipe in real life. But I had hoped that you would have a bit more interesting design for it than that.

As for the rest of it I'll reserve judgement till I've played it. But the maps still look pretty flat.

Old Post 02-05-13 18:18 #
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Tango
Senior Member


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... as expected, carnevil completely disregards my post as another post about "WRACK IS TERRIBLE AND DUM KUMMINTY H8S U" and posts another almost completely flat screenshot

i give up carnevil. i was trying to, you know, help, and get you to stop being big-headed but apparently nothing has changed

though i will say the little "GREAT" combo counter-esque thing looks nifty

Old Post 02-05-13 18:40 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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kristus: Here's a better look at it:

http://i.imgur.com/wF9feEQl.png

Our texture artist wants to give it a bit of sprucing up now that he knows more about how the weapon will be held, but at this angle I think you can see that there's more to it.

Tango: I don't think there's much I can do to satisfy you. I'm doing the best I can, but I only have so much talent. I think Erik Alm makes great stuff, Scythe 2 included, and I fruitlessly tried to recruit him (to this day, I think my PM to him on here is still unread, and yes, I tried his Gmail account). A lot of improvements have been made and a lot of suggestions have been taken into consideration, but ultimately I don't think there's much I can do to satisfy you.

Old Post 02-05-13 18:57 #
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Justince
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Keep up the hard work Carn.

Old Post 02-05-13 19:15 #
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Tango
Senior Member


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yeah but i think you're just lacking confidence in yourself. i've always really found appeal in your stuff (was a major wart fanboy when i was a skulltagger) and you have a great eye for visuals and clean looks, imo all you would need is just a little push into making things more varied.

i mean you're going to make your game the way you want to and yes obviously you won't satisfy all potential customers but you coded your own game, i would think that some height variation and interconnectivity wouldn't be much of an issue for you. you sound less confident in your abilities than you should be. whether it's lack of experimentation or persistence i dunno but do what you're gonna do i guess

Old Post 02-08-13 17:40 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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But in your previous post you said you were trying to get me to stop being big-headed! :P And now you think I lack confidence? Make up your mind, man! :P

Anyway, look, I think a lot of the things you're mentioning are being done. Look at that screenshot above: You have dips in the floor and angled faces on the ceiling (height variation), and all sorts of windows and areas wrapped around that room (interconnectivity). Now, is this the pinnacle of height variation? No, of course not, but there's plenty of that sort of thing elsewhere on the map. Do you really want me to post a screenshot of a staircase? I don't think so. But if you go back to the E1M6 shot I posted alongside all the other texture sets, you have a ledge with monsters and energy columns (though the monsters may have been dead) creating a focal point of the map, and some extra ledges along the walls containing bunches of monsters - giving you a great chance to put your newly acquired bazooka to use! :)

My point all along has been: I'm doing these things to improve the maps - you guys just aren't acknowledging it (which is fine - no law against that). Some here have created a narrative that the maps are flat and boxy and ignore any evidence to the contrary. You can go along with that if you want to, but I think the evidence for that is starting to wear thin (though I'm sure some people will cherry pick a few rooms that violate this non-fundamental tenant).

Old Post 02-08-13 18:16 #
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Shaviro
Team Future Chief


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I think what people fail to specifically point out is that height variation is less about small changes in floor/ceiling height and more about different "floors" representing multiple options, interconnectivity, angles of attack and angles to be attacked from. A ledge up above that you can see, but not get to right away is like a window into another room. It generates interest through curiosity and the promise of more to come. Slopes and general floor/ceiling displacement mostly is reduced to aesthetics.

Old Post 02-08-13 18:44 #
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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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About height variation, think more about functional variations than cosmetic.

Think about stuff like a room with a ledge-or-bridge, so you first cross it on the bottom level and then at some point later in the game you cross it again but this time on the ledge/bridge/whatever.

Take the zigzag room in Doom's E1M1. You have a platform with a couple of enemies that you can't reach yet.

Things such as simple dips in the floor and slopes in the ceiling might make the room more interesting to look at, but they don't really have an impact on the gameplay.

Maybe try playing through Back to Saturn X's MAP03: The Room Taking Shape. It has the best use of height variation I've seen recently.

Old Post 02-08-13 18:46 #
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Technician
Still no custom title


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I highly suggest making that cross white, Carn.

Old Post 02-08-13 19:06 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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Shaviro said:
I think what people fail to specifically point out is that height variation is less about small changes in floor/ceiling height and more about different "floors" representing multiple options, interconnectivity, angles of attack and angles to be attacked from. A ledge up above that you can see, but not get to right away is like a window into another room. It generates interest through curiosity and the promise of more to come. Slopes and general floor/ceiling displacement mostly is reduced to aesthetics.

I agree, and point out that there are windows in that room doing what you describe. Anyway, that screenshot is primarily supposed to be aesthetically pleasing. Great gameplay areas don't necessarily translate well to screenshots.

As I point out at the end of the preview article, I think the addition of the bazooka is a big game-changer for the reasons mentioned. It's a long range weapon that allows maps to open up and have monsters up on ledges and father away since you now have a weapon you can actually fight them effectively with. The pistol is accurate, but it'd be dickish if I made you fight a bunch of monsters at a long range with it.

Old Post 02-08-13 19:35 #
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geo
Forum Staple


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I want to like this, but it feels so much like Doom with a new splash of color. Maybe I just need to play more.

Old Post 02-08-13 20:22 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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geo said:
I want to like this, but it feels so much like Doom with a new splash of color. Maybe I just need to play more.

We're starting to do a lot of non-Doom-like stuff. For instance... cutscenes with art... like this!

http://i.imgur.com/9pBKjqz.png http://i.imgur.com/gEgxt9p.png
http://i.imgur.com/GKvXRAV.png http://i.imgur.com/WacrFYk.png

Old Post 02-08-13 23:34 #
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esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


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Nice artwork.

Old Post 02-08-13 23:49 #
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dew
experts


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those pics look cool in a cheesy 90's cartoon way, which is pretty awesome of course. except the helmet guy's nose piece, that looks painfully uncomfortable. i'm willing to fully retract that objection if his voice is hilariously nasal.

Old Post 02-09-13 00:51 #
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Captain Ventris
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Is that guy wearing the back of Falco's head!?!

Old Post 02-09-13 01:09 #
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Tango
Senior Member


Posts: 1665
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Captain Ventris said:
Is that guy wearing the back of Falco's head!?!


fuck you man i was literally about to type "you made falco purple"

and carn you were being both, so you make up your mind :p you seemed big-headed in thinking that you didn't need x or y but then later you said you weren't doing x and y because of lack of confidence. you make up your mind dammit

you're going to make your game the way you want it and nobody can really force you to do otherwise but i urge you to at least keep thinking about it and maybe you'll have a revelation. or maybe you are in fact already doing what we have in mind in these other areas of the map not shown, i dunno.

i second dew's suggestion for a nasal voice for falco

Old Post 02-09-13 04:01 #
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geo
Forum Staple


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While those are fantastic pieces of artwork. I'm very used to RPG Maker cut scenes :-( If you're going to make cut scenes hopefully its to amp up challenge like... uh oh someone is flooding this area with mild radiation and you need to find the controls to turn it off or you're gonna die.

Its great that you're doing non Doom stuff. The idle animations and models of dead come to mind that are not Doom like.

Having the sword cut enemies in half exactly where you cut them would feel different and rewarding. Imagine cutting a head off or cutting someone in half. At least for the soldiers.

Including ladders or hallways over hallways (like Quake had). I'm sure no one would feel its undoom like. Even hanging from a ceiling would feel different. Not every ceiling, but specific times where then if you push the jump button you drop down. Just a thought.

The shotgun's spread feels good and logical. It would do a lot more damage close up and you see the spray. Unlike Doom 3 people didn't understand why they couldn't shotgun sniper long distance enemies like they could in Doom.

With the giant heavy robots. I feel that if you get far away from them they should shoot lasers or something that do less damage than when they brutally punch you. Perhaps it would be too undoom like to suggest piloting one so you can cross lava and hit a switch to open a door. Sorry crazy idea.

While dodging bullets at 60 mph is fun it gets repetitive. Having a shooting soldier randomly throw a grenade might prevent me from jumping and strafing around every bullet if suddenly my strafe had to avoid splash damage.

Perhaps its too late for all of this, but I'm just throwing it out there.

Giving some enemies cover would seem helpful. I can do the same damage shooting someone in the legs and have 100% access to their whole body when there should be cover for them when I'm 100% exposed and I can see 50% of them.

There is good enemy variety. Big robots, shooting soldier robots, spider drones, flying drones. There need to be enemies with either force fields to guard those behind them or soldiers with shields that you need to take out with some splash damage from behind. Maybe it exists in the game but I haven't found it. If there are enemies with force fields, there can be a specific gun or to take them out that does no damage to physical enemies. That way people need to decide to take out a shield or take out unshielded enemies.

Suicide bomber droness might be nice... Something that needs to be killed quick before it gets near you and explodes.

It doesn't feel like there is any light variance and maybe that's why people feel everything looks samey. Glowing lava like texture doesn't emit a red hue and the green slime ooze doesn't emit a green hue. The lights seem to be the same brightness everywhere you go. inside, outside. You can do a lot of cool things with light or even light hues. See the Alien films. If only the Doom engine could show light coming through windows.

Furniture might also make things feel different. There's probably not supposed to be any furniture in corridors... but vending machines... warnings to others, posters, blood, health dispensers and view screens might help make help areas look less mundane.

Anyway, back to playing.

Last edited by geo on 02-09-13 at 15:36

Old Post 02-09-13 14:55 #
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Justince
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Eh the cartoons look alright, at least that Nathan Explosion looking fucker is badass.

Old Post 02-09-13 18:34 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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heh, Exo (the purple-haired humanoid) seems to remind everyone of something different. I was joking to my friends last night that he looks like Cyber-Akuma.

Here's a better pic of Exo, though:

http://www.wrackgame.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Exo-779x1024.png

Old Post 02-09-13 20:53 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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geo said:
It doesn't feel like there is any light variance and maybe that's why people feel everything looks samey. Glowing lava like texture doesn't emit a red hue and the green slime ooze doesn't emit a green hue. The lights seem to be the same brightness everywhere you go. inside, outside. You can do a lot of cool things with light or even light hues. See the Alien films. If only the Doom engine could show light coming through windows.

Wait, are you saying these things should happen, but aren't happening? I know at one point they weren't, but since then I've done a lot to address that. I even detailed that in this blog post on contrast (Tango: Take note! This is about a fundamental design principle!).

Here's a place I tried to do that. Note the green walls/ceiling illuminated by the slime pit in the middle. Looks pretty damn good to me - so much so that it's been a featured screenshot on the site for awhile now.

http://i.imgur.com/ubRQolql.jpg

Old Post 02-12-13 21:05 #
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geo
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The fact you have talking points makes me feel like I wasn't the only one that felt that way. I didn't feel like I noticed any change in lighting. It seemed like the same brightness throughout the entire thing, but perhaps I didn't notice the details. Let me go back and play the game some. .... yep outside has a light change.

The green does look different and nice, but if its really a green light why isn't everything else green? So you just tinted the walls? Which is good. If everything can be tinted that will make areas feel different.

I did get a Contra vibe just from all of the bullet projectiles flying. Then I saw in your first post here its supposed to be like Contra. Depending what the story is behind the game you can always have mangled skull wearing robots or eventually have human bones re-animated with cybernetic technology. Everything enemy currently looks pretty in a sterile way. But that is just my opinion and I'm just throwing out ideas.

Last edited by geo on 02-12-13 at 21:27

Old Post 02-12-13 21:21 #
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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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If it's green light coming from what's under the grates, the robots definitely need to be bathed in that light too. Otherwise, it just makes it look like it's green paint on the walls. (Unless there's things like light pulsing or flickering; but you can't see such effects on a screenshot.)

Old Post 02-12-13 22:00 #
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Carnevil
I fail it.


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I agree. I've given thought to aggregating the various light influences and having the object's directional lighting/color be based on that. We'll see.

Old Post 02-12-13 22:33 #
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