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Enjay
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kristus said:
I doubt it. Jumping is pretty easy in Wrack.

You'd be amazed how many times I drop to my death even in the simple jumping areas in the maps so far. Even getting up that jumpy nukage starway construct takes me a number of attempts every time I play. Basically, I suck at jumping. :P

I noticed the teleport if you fail but I would spend most of my time teleporting back to the starting place if I played that map. Like I said, I suck.

Old Post 09-16-12 20:53 #
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Carnevil
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Enjay said:

You'd be amazed how many times I drop to my death even in the simple jumping areas in the maps so far. Even getting up that jumpy nukage starway construct takes me a number of attempts every time I play. Basically, I suck at jumping. :P

I noticed the teleport if you fail but I would spend most of my time teleporting back to the starting place if I played that map. Like I said, I suck.


Yeah, and that's why we've tried to keep the jumping aspect to be fairly minimal. We don't want the game to be TOO frustrating. The game is supposed to primarily be blasting tons of monsters with your weapons, with the other mechanics being in there to spice things up. Contra wasn't *primarily* about jumps or other instant-death level hazards, and Wrack doesn't aim to be either.

Anyway, there are different kinds of instant-death hazards later on in the game, like the smashing walls/ceilings on E1M4.

Also, last day of the Desura sale! If you haven't gotten it yet... FFS, why?! http://www.desura.com/games/wrack

Old Post 09-17-12 00:00 #
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Enjay
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The quicksave has been a real boost for me. I avoid using it most of the time but my ineptitude when it comes to jumping is offset a little by the fact that I can now quicksave near a jumpy bit.

However, I don't want to make a big deal over this. I've sort of been drawn to comment on it both here and at the ZDoom forum but the jumping in Wrack isn't overly obtrusive and, for the most part, is reasonably forgiving (or you have options like jump to get the bonus or choose a safer route and leave the bonus behind). Jumping or no, it's a game that I really enjoy playing and it nicely fills that niche of a game that you can dip into and be playing straight away and for as long or as short as you fancy.

Old Post 09-17-12 19:22 #
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K!r4
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Any plan on giving Desura keys to people who purchased the game on your website? Just for the convenience sack though, not a big issue to me.

PS: saw your complaint on Twitter about sales. Try to send a quick pitch with trailer + links on Gamespress.

Old Post 10-04-12 07:46 #
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Jodwin
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K!r4 said:
PS: saw your complaint on Twitter about sales. Try to send a quick pitch with trailer + links on Gamespress.

I'd argue that the single biggest problem with the game is that it simply isn't finished. Asking money for letting people to play what's technically an alpha or a beta doesn't fit well for most people out there. Even saying that they'll get the rest of the content for the game later on doesn't help much, because there's no guarantee that they'll actually get that content.

TB's WTF is Wrack has got almost 230k views so far. If that publicity hasn't gained a respectable amount of sales, there's something "wrong" with either the product or the business model. In other words, Carn, you've had a large number of people see the game being played. If that doesn't sell the game, the only thing left is to let those people try the game out. At this point getting features on small websites with tiny audiences simply won't make a difference. What you really need to do is to put out a free demo. Add e1m1 and e1m3 (having finally bought Wrack and played the first four levels, I'd say these would be the best pairing). Then when marketing the game, emphasize the fact that you get to play already existing user made levels if you buy the game. Saying "We have four maps, but we'll get more later, promise" sounds much worse than "We have four official maps and a couple of really good user made levels, with more coming later" (plus, that foundry level is pretty nice)!

Old Post 10-04-12 08:53 #
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K!r4
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It could help anyway. Gamespress isn't a tiny website, it's an hub where most videogame journalists pick their material.

Yet, I keep thinking Carnevil should give all episodes at this price. The game doesn't have that killer feature which makes it that different than Quake or Doom, yet those had the first episode free and once paid you had all the other levels. I kept asking myself if it was worth the price because of this, and I am part of the target this game is aiming at!

Thus, I tend to concur with you Jodwin when you say people should be able to try it out. It plays better than you could guess when looking at a video.

Old Post 10-04-12 09:06 #
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Phml
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It does seem lack of content is the culprit here. It's pretty common to see feedback along the lines of "I bought the game, it was actually quite fun, but then about a hour or two in it was over and I had no reason to come back to it".

Old Post 10-04-12 14:17 #
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Gez
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You will get an influx of new buyers each time Wrack gets a new map in its first episode. You're still at four maps? Time to get the fifth out there. Then, say, no more than two months later, the sixth. And so on.

I understand the problem might be with unfinished resources; so if the weapons and monsters for these maps aren't there yet, it delays stuff. In such case, you might want to pad out the first episode with filler maps that keep using what resources there are. If the first episode ends up being twice as long as the others; well it's not really a problem. You may even end up making them optional levels only reached from alternate exit points once the "real" E1M5, E1M6, etc. are there.

Old Post 10-04-12 15:31 #
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K!r4
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Or you could make them "boxed" and be clear about it. I guess it wouldn't make it an HOM shitfest like Doom :-D

If it sounds too ridiculous to you, know that Hawken, which is one of the most anticipated f2p games, has parts of maps not textured right now at alpha. And it doesn't seem to pose a problem to players.

Old Post 10-04-12 19:10 #
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Carnevil
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K!r4 said:
The game doesn't have that killer feature which makes it that different than Quake or Doom, yet those had the first episode free and once paid you had all the other levels.

Wait, what?! Doom had platformer-style bosses? Doom had new gameplay mechanics every couple of levels? Doom had instant-death hazards and a lives system? Doom had time and score attack modes with a leaderboard? Sure, there are Doom-like aspects to the game, but Wrack is bringing plenty of new things to the table as well.


Phml said:
It does seem lack of content is the culprit here. It's pretty common to see feedback along the lines of "I bought the game, it was actually quite fun, but then about a hour or two in it was over and I had no reason to come back to it".


But there *is* plenty of reason to come back to it! Playing mods, making mods, time attack, score attack, trying to get better chains (one of the things I love most about E1M2 is trying to chain 40+ kills together down the right path). Here at Doomworld which isn't big into multiplayer Doom, you guys all seem to come back to Doom over and over again just fine.


K!r4 said:
If it sounds too ridiculous to you, know that Hawken, which is one of the most anticipated f2p games, has parts of maps not textured right now at alpha. And it doesn't seem to pose a problem to players.

All of the maps are done sans texturing. I would put that out, but something tells me that people wouldn't be as forgiving as the Hawken players.

Also, yes, just hit me up with your email address and I'll get you a Desura key.

Old Post 10-04-12 19:34 #
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K!r4
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Carnevil said:

Wait, what?! Doom had platformer-style bosses? Doom had new gameplay mechanics every couple of levels? Doom had instant-death hazards and a lives system? Doom had time and score attack modes with a leaderboard? Sure, there are Doom-like aspects to the game, but Wrack is bringing plenty of new things to the table as well.


Question is: are these killer features? If you think that yes then focus a lot more on this and expand on the ideas.

For exemple: platformer Bosses? Then make a boss similar to that tiger in Crash Bandicoot who jumps on platforms and make them fall in void with you having to anticipate his patterns to stay alive. Guess what, I have a boner thinking about it, it would perfectly fit in your game IMHO!

I have nothing to say about the scoring system/in-game demos-maps downloading. This is neat! I wish Doom/Quake had this since the beginning.

But the lives/scoring aren't that new, think about Wolfenstein 3D. The only difference is the lack of this cool online scoreboard. I wouldn't insist too much on it save for the online aspect.

Just some advices and feedback given by an avid FPS gamer just like you.


All of the maps are done sans texturing. I would put that out, but something tells me that people wouldn't be as forgiving as the Hawken players.

Put a "Work in Progress - Textures incoming!" and try it, seriously. Please don't have such a pessimist attitude over those who gave you money because they were interested enough to get into the game.

Your usual troll either didn't pay it or doesn't care at all about your game.


Also, yes, just hit me up with your email address and I'll get you a Desura key.

I'll PM you, thanks!

Old Post 10-04-12 20:01 #
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Jodwin
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Gez said:
You will get an influx of new buyers each time Wrack gets a new map in its first episode. You're still at four maps? Time to get the fifth out there. Then, say, no more than two months later, the sixth. And so on.

That's going to die down sooner rather than later. Problem is, at some point either people or news outlets are just going to stop caring about a game that just keeps releasing more and more information or content, unless it's a game that really interests pretty much everyone. When your goal is to gain at least some interest in the first place, less updates with bigger oomph behind them is, in most cases, better than more updates with barely any content.


Carnevil said:
Wait, what?! Doom had platformer-style bosses? Doom had new gameplay mechanics every couple of levels? Doom had instant-death hazards and a lives system? Doom had time and score attack modes with a leaderboard? Sure, there are Doom-like aspects to the game, but Wrack is bringing plenty of new things to the table as well.

1. How do those features appear in the current content you've got?
2. How well are you doing at emphasizing those points in your marketing?
3. Are they features that the potential customers care about?

You've currently got two bosses in the game. The first level boss is well designed, but a bit too easy. Which, I suppose, is the point of a first level, but it doesn't make it a good marketable boss. The second boss is, IMHO, pretty lackluster since it's technically an enhanced turret section (you have very little movement space and the boss doesn't really move around). I'm a huge fan of the idea of platform-style bosses, but to be honest the currently available content isn't making the best possible impression of it. Since you're still in alpha, if you've got a boss that's more marketable ready, you might want to consider swapping it for the turret-y boss. Just because then you'd be able to make use of it in your marketing while waiting for the rest of the levels to come out.

I'd argue that instant-death hazards aren't a huge selling point for FPS games. They apparently are for certain platformers, but there's no "precision FPS" subgenre out there. And new gameplay mechanics every few levels? Again, how are you currently bringing this point across to potential customers? Even if you write it out in big, bold letters most people will shrug it off as nothing else than big marketing speeches. Time and score attack are nice, but how big are their potential audiences? Actually, some people consider those modes to be excuses for a lack of other content, so you might want to avoid over-emphasizing them. Also, Doom has an active time attack scene, so that's nothing new at all.


Carnevil said:
But there *is* plenty of reason to come back to it! Playing mods, making mods, time attack, score attack, trying to get better chains (one of the things I love most about E1M2 is trying to chain 40+ kills together down the right path). Here at Doomworld which isn't big into multiplayer Doom, you guys all seem to come back to Doom over and over again just fine.

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but, seriously, market it. Let people see that you have replayability and that you have plenty of quality content thanks to user made levels. Especially emphasize that you can play that quality user made content directly from the game itself. I can tell that I had no idea that Wrack would have good user made levels before I bought it, and I was very pleasantly surprised when I saw that not only those levels do exist, but that I can play them directly from the game without any extra effort.

Seriously, that's a strength right there. Make use of it. The Desura page for Wrack doesn't mention user made content in any way, and still you sound like you expect people to consider it when they make their buying decision.

Last, perhaps the biggest thing to set Wrack apart from its contemporaries is the flow and speed. You can't effectively market this with text and videos alone, it's something that you need to experience yourself. Get that demo out there already.

Old Post 10-04-12 20:42 #
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Carnevil
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Jodwin said:

That's going to die down sooner rather than later. Problem is, at some point either people or news outlets are just going to stop caring about a game that just keeps releasing more and more information or content, unless it's a game that really interests pretty much everyone.


That's already pretty much happened. Anticipating that it was going to take something pretty big for us to get any attention at this point, I purposely made mid-September very eventful/newsworthy for Wrack. All at the same time, we:

1). Released Wrack on Desura
2). Released a sexy new trailer
3). Put Wrack on sale for 50% off
4). Added Wrack to Steam Greenlight
5). Put out a nice meaty update (including adding the ability to quicksave)

... and I couldn't get any noteworthy gaming news websites to give a shit. In particular, the email I sent Rock, Paper, Shotgun was full of news, entertainment, and wit... but it was all for naught. I don't even bother emailing the editor of indiegames.com anymore. It seems like unless you're a pixel art iOS game, they don't really care.

To respond to the rest of your post... seriously, on one hand you say that time attack isn't anything new, yet you enjoy featured maps because of the convenience. ... what? The leaderboard system and automatic submissions of times/replays is incredibly convenient and adds a huge competitive element to it, as well as authenticity. It might not be brand new, but holy shit is it done well, incredibly convenient, and most importantly... FUN!

Also, with out budget, there's not much I can really do to frame the game. I've done my best to point out that it's akin to a Doom/Contra hybrid, but nobody understands that. People are going to draw their own conclusions based on the screenshots and videos they see - in other words, pigenhole it into the lowest-common denominator possible ("It looks like Doom and Borderlands!"). When I gave the game to RPS several months ago, I said nothing of Doom to them when I presented them with the game, and yet the article basically reads like this: "Doom Doom Doom DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! Doom Doom Doom Doom Doom - Doom, Doom."

Old Post 10-05-12 03:01 #
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Jodwin
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Carnevil said:
To respond to the rest of your post... seriously, on one hand you say that time attack isn't anything new, yet you enjoy featured maps because of the convenience. ... what? The leaderboard system and automatic submissions of times/replays is incredibly convenient and adds a huge competitive element to it, as well as authenticity. It might not be brand new, but holy shit is it done well, incredibly convenient, and most importantly... FUN!

Factually speaking, the time attack isn't anything new, Doom has had a competitive demo scene since the dawn of time. The convenience of it may be new, but I personally don't care because I'm not a competitive time attack player/demo runner. Also, featured maps provide the players with all new content while the alternate game modes only let you replay old content within a certain context. For some people that's fine, but for others...not so much. Because why would you be playing over and over the same old content when you could be playing something else that's all new?

Point being, time and score attack don't sell games. They appeal to a very small minority of gamers. If you need any kind of a proof, just look at the Doom demo scene. Even though there has been a number of involved players, it's still a tiny, tiny part of the whole Doom "community". User made content, on the other hand, is something that appeals to pretty much everyone who plays and enjoys the game in the first place. That's pretty much the only reason why Doom is still alive.

Old Post 10-05-12 06:50 #
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Carnevil
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Jodwin said:

Point being, time and score attack don't sell games.


Does anything?!

Old Post 10-05-12 07:59 #
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zap610
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I seriously have been waiting for a demo for this since it started selling. I've been observing this passively and I honestly see a trend. Not everyone is impressed by the videos but most seem to be with actually playing it. When do you plan to release a demo; even just one map?

Old Post 10-05-12 20:27 #
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Ralphis
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I won Wrack in the quakenet giveaway a few weeks back and I will say that I generally thought the game played very well. I liked the speed and movement of the game and I thought the visuals were pretty cool (the lava looks bad though). It was paced well and I liked having to go back to visit areas to find new things. My complaint in this department is that sometimes I feel like whole levels look the exact same and it is hard to mentally differentiate where I've been sometimes (not always).

I didn't care for the bosses very much. They just don't feel natural to me, almost like they're shoe horned in just because. I also thought that the common enemies could've used better animations. The large tank-like guys you start encountering in the later levels look pretty ridiculous in the 2010s. I understand that the game is going for the retro feel, but I think you can still improve the presentation while maintaining the fast paced gameplay that Wrack already has.

I think it's really cool that Carn is working hard to realize a dream that many of us have had by producing his own game. All things considered, it looks decent. Not $60 decent, but I could easily see this becoming a $15 Steam/Live/PSN title and doing well for itself.

Still think the game could use multiplayer, even if it's just coop.

Old Post 10-07-12 00:11 #
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Enjay
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Ralphis said:
The large tank-like guys you start encountering in the later levels look pretty ridiculous in the 2010s.

Funny you should say that because I (and I know a number of other people too) think that they are the best looking enemies in the game.

Old Post 10-07-12 12:50 #
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Ralphis
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Enjay said:

Funny you should say that because I (and I know a number of other people too) think that they are the best looking enemies in the game.



I think the models for most of the enemies look cool. I'm strictly talking about the animations of them. They just look really cheesy like something out of a QBasic game.

Old Post 10-11-12 04:54 #
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Kirby
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zap610 said:
I seriously have been waiting for a demo for this since it started selling. I've been observing this passively and I honestly see a trend. Not everyone is impressed by the videos but most seem to be with actually playing it. When do you plan to release a demo; even just one map?
I don't want to be one to harp on this but.....yeah, this. After running Borderlands 2 on my system quite successfully, I know Wrack should run quite smoothly as well and I am interested in trying it out. But I would REALLY like to at least get a sample of it (if not just one very simple, playable level) to check it before I go and spend some money on it (call it nitpicking for the money part - I want to buy what looks quite good so far, but at this point I am EXTREMELY shorthanded on funds).

Old Post 10-11-12 05:13 #
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Carnevil
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Kirby said:
Borderlands 2 ... (but at this point I am EXTREMELY shorthanded on funds).

... probably from spending $60 on that standalone Borderlands expansion called "Borderlands 2". :(

Old Post 10-11-12 11:05 #
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Carnevil said:

... probably from spending $60 on that standalone Borderlands expansion called "Borderlands 2". :(



Not sure attacking potential customers is the greatest marketing technique. :P

Old Post 10-11-12 11:31 #
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K!r4
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Yeah, let him freely play a level of Wrack instead, odds are higher that it will make him sacrifice a little more of his budget on this game.

Protip: if you ain't well known and all, better to be nice with your potential customers. It make them more likely to support you in the long run. In fact, being agressive won't earn you anything at all, like trolling Borderlands 2 at every occasion. Worse, it could make people annoyed and they wouldn't be here anymore when you'd release the next part of Wrack.

Old Post 10-11-12 11:43 #
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Carnevil
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Oh relax. I was joking around. Mostly the point I was trying to make is that Borderlands 2 is overpriced and shitty anyway.

Old Post 10-11-12 12:05 #
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I still think it'd be cool for you to include a shareware episode. I'd definitely be more likely to buy the game if I got to play it for myself. LP's and trailers are one thing, and getting one's hands on the product is another!

Old Post 10-11-12 14:29 #
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K!r4
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Carnevil said:
Oh relax. I was joking around. Mostly the point I was trying to make is that Borderlands 2 is overpriced and shitty anyway.

Point taken. Still, bitching about Borderlands 2 here as well as in your Twitter feed will not drive you anywhere... It's energy you could spend otherwise.

Old Post 10-11-12 14:46 #
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Carnevil said:
Oh relax. I was joking around. Mostly the point I was trying to make is that Borderlands 2 is overpriced and shitty anyway.
That point I agree on. I was only able to get it because I only had to spend $10 on it and I had nothing else to waste my time with. However BL2 does offer a shit ton of play time and is variably entertaining, though granted I could've put that $10 to better use.

Last edited by Kirby on 10-11-12 at 17:02

Old Post 10-11-12 16:52 #
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Carnevil
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K!r4 said:

Point taken. Still, bitching about Borderlands 2 here as well as in your Twitter feed will not drive you anywhere... It's energy you could spend otherwise.


I make no apologies about having an opinion contrary to yours; nor do I make any apologies about expressing that opinion. I genuinely had high hopes for the game, I'm genuinely disappointed in it, and I'm genuinely disappointed in how much praise and sales it's gotten.

Old Post 10-11-12 17:22 #
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K!r4
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Actually I think nothing about Borderlands. I didn't wait anything about it and didn't play it (Dark Souls and Dishonored are my drugs actually). I don't plan to buy it either.

I was in fact refering to tweets like this and this.


@ClevelandRock If it doesn't have "Borderlands" in the title, who gives a shit.


.@tsukiyomaru0 Yeah, and it doesn't have horrible, boring gameplay either. So why is Borderlands 2 #1 on Steam and Wrack can't even get on?


That's why I am a little worried about your answer to Kirby (yet I may be misleaded and all, in that case I said nothing).

It's your business so I shouldn't give a shit, but since I appreciate your work and its completion depends on the success it has, I thought one or two tips to help it getting noticed could be helpful.

Also, you didn't answer to the handful of people asking for a free level here. Don't you think it could help?

Old Post 10-11-12 19:08 #
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Carnevil
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We'll have a demo when the first level represents more of a vertical slice of the finished product. I think that for people who grab the demo, you've only got one shot to impress them so there's no point in rushing that out.

Old Post 10-12-12 07:42 #
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