if you're an Alien fan, for GOD'S SAKE, do not watch "Prometheus" [yes, spoilers]

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Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > if you're an Alien fan, for GOD'S SAKE, do not watch "Prometheus" [yes, spoilers]

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Violator
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I fuckin digged this movie, finally a modern sci-fi that didn't need to prove its excellence through amazing explosions and constant action. H.R Giger's work looked incredible.

07-31-12 09:18 #

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Technician
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Like most of Scott's work, I'm sure this film will be improved by a director's cut.

07-31-12 09:23 #

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kristus
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I don't see how that would be possible.

07-31-12 09:30 #

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Mr. Freeze
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DoomUK said:

Besides the facehugger concept, wasn't it strongly implied that the alien fucked Lambert in Alien?

How? It has no dick, or even sexual urges. The scene is symbolic of rape, but that's part of the Xenomorph being symbolic for sexual fears.

07-31-12 16:10 #

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DoomUK
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Mr. Freeze said:
How? It has no dick, or even sexual urges. The scene is symbolic of rape, but that's part of the Xenomorph being symbolic for sexual fears.

It's tail goes between her legs. Then we hear that scream.

It's a chilling and creepy moment in the movie, and I was always left with the impression that she wasn't killed in the same fashion that Parker was. Penis or no penis.

Last edited by DoomUK on 07-31-12 at 16:41

07-31-12 16:24 #

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st.alfonzo
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kristus said:
The abortion scene. That whole operation is so poorly executed that even with the greatest effort can I not maintain my suspension of disbelief through that part. Or maybe I would not. Because the whole movie up to that point had been just this idiotic rollercoaster that I couldn't care less about it anymore. And that she somehow still manage to do everything that she does through the rest of the movie, without dying on the spot.

Good heavens, we are at odds on that one. I didn't often challenge my acceptance of absurdity, and I think now, in retrospect, it's because that to dismiss that scene (and others like it) as being implausible would only succeed in detracting from areas of the film that I shouldn't really be focused on anyway. I should be looking at the bigger picture, surely! Of course, it helps if these sorts of details are ironed out and make as much sense as possible, but unless you're dealing with a film that builds its foundations from the little details, then it's going to mean increasingly less. Undoubtedly, my disbelief shouldn't have even left the ground the moment a muscle-bound humanoid drank a vessel filled with black liquid, disintegrated, then sowed the seeds for life on primordial Earth by tumbling over a waterfall... not because it was too far fetched, but because it drove a big 'ol stake through the beating heart of Darwinism. But it suspended there anyway, as I could hazzard a guess at what sort of film I was dealing with from the very same opening.

For what it's worth, though, I do think that Prometheus allows itself to get tied up in the smaller picture a little too much, drawing the audience's attention away from what it should be focusing on to pick out blatant misteps like Fifield and co.. That chamber snake scene? I cringed with dissapointment and frustration. Or, at least I did up until the fool got his arm broken. The visceral intensity of it all make me smile at that point.

Doom UK said:
Besides the facehugger concept, wasn't it strongly implied that the alien fucked Lambert in Alien? If there's one thing that James Cameron didn't get when he made Aliens was the creepy sexual aspect of the titular creatures, and he set a paradigm that continued on throughout the saga.

Yeah, sexual symbolism is rife in Alien. There's that which Mr. Freeze mentions, and then there's Ian Holm's Ash trying to kill Ripley by thrusting a pornographic magazine down her throat.

Ca-razy!

07-31-12 18:38 #

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geekmarine
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My take... It was a potentially great film ruined by a bunch of idiotic characters running around like chickens with their heads cut off. I still have hope for the sequels, as we've ditched the unnecessary baggage (seriously, only person I cared about who didn't make it was the captain). I did like the android, and I for one was okay with how the space jockeys were set up, and I hope there's payoff to that in the sequel or sequels.

Thing is, I almost kind of get the feeling that there were actually two movies - the one Ridley Scott wanted to make, and the one the studio wanted. What I'm really hoping is that the sequels will get to explore what Ridley Scott wanted to do in the first place, and that this first movie was just made so the studio could get their sci-fi horror film with all the gory deaths and everything. Like, the pitch was, "Okay, I want to explore the space jockeys and make a movie about them," and the studio was like, "Okay, but can we have an unnecessary crew all get horrifically murdered first, so it'll appeal to a larger audience?"

Of course, even if you did need an unnecessary crew to die horribly, I still think it's lazy writing to just paint them all as morons in order to ensure their deaths. I hate it when movies have to rely on that. That cliche has almost made the entire horror genre a joke. It's hard to get into a movie when the only reason the villain is successful is because the protagonists are friggin' idiots.

But yeah, I did think the stuff about the space jockeys and how they created life on Earth but then wanted to destroy it all could've been very interesting, if the crew hadn't been so dumb. So I'm hoping that with their deaths, we'll actually be able to get into that in the sequels.

And final thoughts - if we ever do start exploring deep space, traveling to other stars and whatnot, I hope the first thing anyone ever learns in astronaut training is, "Don't touch that, stupid!" Yes, I believe there should be a full course on that subject, because dear God, no one ever seems to figure that out.

07-31-12 19:37 #

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Johnatone
Make love not Half-Life expansion packs

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Between this thread and Maddox's review there's really nothing more I can say on the movie. I didn't care for it because I felt they were disrespectful to the core franchise; it was like that movie Stay Alive (a horror movie based around video games) not taking ten minutes of research to realize you can't play a single alpha copy of one game cross platform on the internet (Also, a goth chick named October? Seriously?). (The first movie at the drive in that night was AvP, which I agree was more respectful than this one to the Alien franchise even if I hated it. That was a shitty date night).

What's really wrong with this movie can be summed up in one word: clices. A constant barrage of bad clices.

(Oh my god, I've been trusted with expensive technology that mapped out the entire structure but I don't know how to read the maps! Now I'm a zombie because those are popular now!)

The self-abortion scene was brutal, yes, but would've been better if her guts had spilled out when the stitches ripped open as she ran around like nothing had happened. Meh.

If they do decide to make a sequel, I'll rent it on Blu-ray. At least watching it in HD at home would save me from the woman behind me saying, "Oh my god" every few minutes and the dumbass kid in front of me who seemed to be the last person on Earth to realize the Facehuggers are phallus inuendo.

gggmork said:

Most movies are just another branch of the elite controlled media now, with Tom Hanks and all these undeservingly rich asshats as their Joseph Goebbels propaganda henchmen. Probably every time you pay to see a movie or buy one of their DRM filled planned obsolescence storage mediums, it funds the development of robots to enslave us in the future. We fund our own enslavement, that's full spectrum dominance, bizitch!

There's probably a certain amount of validity to what you're saying (I'm a fiscal-conservative libertarian) but dammit, you can't come off all crazy like that! It only fuels them.

07-31-12 19:40 #

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The Lag
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geekmarine said:
My take... It was a potentially great film ruined by a bunch of idiotic characters running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

This. The movie looked great. I was disappointed by the music. The overt religious themes kinda turned me off, but it was the retarded characters that ruined the whole thing for me.

07-31-12 20:43 #

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kristus
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st.alfonzo said:
Good heavens, we are at odds on that one. I didn't often challenge my acceptance of absurdity, and I think now, in retrospect, it's because that to dismiss that scene (and others like it) as being implausible would only succeed in detracting from areas of the film that I shouldn't really be focused on anyway. I should be looking at the bigger picture, surely! Of course, it helps if these sorts of details are ironed out and make as much sense as possible, but unless you're dealing with a film that builds its foundations from the little details, then it's going to mean increasingly less. Undoubtedly, my disbelief shouldn't have even left the ground the moment a muscle-bound humanoid drank a vessel filled with black liquid, disintegrated, then sowed the seeds for life on primordial Earth by tumbling over a waterfall... not because it was too far fetched, but because it drove a big 'ol stake through the beating heart of Darwinism. But it suspended there anyway, as I could hazzard a guess at what sort of film I was dealing with from the very same

That life on earth was seeded from an previous alien life form isn't unplausible enough to shatter my suspension of disbelief. It doesn't mean that it drives a stake through darwinism as you call it. Because it doesn't. Maybe the way they presented it did. Because I can't fucking remember if there was any life around the meathead alien in the first scene. But of course it did raise an eyebrow. Biut at this point I was still expecting a good movie and wasn't so hastily deterred from enjoying it. That stupid so called scientist played by Noomi Rapace did however annoy me quite rapidly. But that was just the beginning of a story of idiocy and completely implaucible scenarios where you couldn't take anyone serious because noone of them made any sense what so ever. But if I am to go thropugh the entire movie and how it all increasingly made me hate every moment of the time I was watching the movie. I would be here a long time and I got better things to do.

08-01-12 13:15 #

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Akse
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I actually love Prometheus!

08-02-12 14:58 #

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st.alfonzo
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kristus said:

That life on earth was seeded from an previous alien life form isn't unplausible enough to shatter my suspension of disbelief. It doesn't mean that it drives a stake through darwinism as you call it. Because it doesn't. Maybe the way they presented it did. Because I can't fucking remember if there was any life around the meathead alien in the first scene.

Heh. I'll grant you everything else you said in the post, as I can certainly see how it would impair the enjoyment of watching the film for some... but this quoted point still interests me a little bit.

Darwinism reveals little to nothing about the spark which kick-started the whole process -- it explains only the process itself. The spark remains a mystery to us. If the "engineers'" intention was to ultimately create human beings through millions upon millions of years of evolution, then there isn't much of a random element to it, which as we know is one integral part of natural selection, but...

Yeah, on second thought, I'm done with this film for the time being. I might just head off and watch Liam Neeson chop necks in Taken for a good hour and a half. There are no big conundrums there!

08-02-12 16:56 #

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fraggle
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st.alfonzo said:
Darwinism reveals little to nothing about the spark which kick-started the whole process -- it explains only the process itself. The spark remains a mystery to us.

Indeed, that's a separate issue. But we do have some plausible explanations for how it may have happened.

If the "engineers'" intention was to ultimately create human beings through millions upon millions of years of evolution, then there isn't much of a random element to it, which as we know is one integral part of natural selection, but...

Evolution is not a random process.

08-02-12 19:40 #

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schwerpunk
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Random mutation + natural selection. About as 'random' as a river forming on the low ground instead of the high ground, but yeah.

I think what Alfonzo is saying is that if we were designed by the Engineers with a final form in mind, then our evolution (if you could call it that - more like 'morphing') would have been pre-determined, rather than a response to our environment.

Which is pretty ridiculous to think about... I think that may be one of the movie's icebox moments I was referring to earlier.

08-02-12 19:57 #

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kristus
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st.alfonzo said:
Darwinism reveals little to nothing about the spark which kick-started the whole process -- it explains only the process itself. The spark remains a mystery to us. If the "engineers'" intention was to ultimately create human beings through millions upon millions of years of evolution, then there isn't much of a random element to it, which as we know is one integral part of natural selection, but...

These so called engineers in the movie only gave the seed to life. Which as (iirc) I pointed out doesn't have shit to do with Evolution. They never said anything of if it was supposed to end up with us humans. Actually, they even decided to have us killed so something suggests that they didn't intend things to evolve in this way. But now you got me defending the basic premise of the movie which wasn't exactly what I was intending.

schwerpunk: It would still be evolution though. Only an intelectually directed evolution. What puzzles me is that an as seeming advanced race as those guys in the movie, where using such absurd inefficient methods if they wanted humans. But that like the rest of the movie doesn't make any reasonable sense so what does it matter?

08-02-12 21:01 #

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The Lag
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they decided to kill us off because we insulted them by killing space-jesus

08-02-12 23:55 #

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st.alfonzo
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fraggle said:
Evolution is not a random process.

It's one component, yeah. I forget to separate random mutation from natural selection...: What schwerpunk said!

kristus said:
They never said anything of if it was supposed to end up with us humans. Actually, they even decided to have us killed so something suggests that they didn't intend things to evolve in this way.

Oops! I stand corrected. And it actually improves the film somewhat as a result. Having the engineers want to kill off humans still succeeds in creating a unique relationship between them and humankind, and still begs the question as to "why". In fact, the "why" question is a heck of a lot heavier in this instance. I must have confused myself with that scene in which -- as I remember it -- the DNA structure of the engineers was shown to be identical (almost identical?) with humans.

In any case, my initial remark was that the possible trumping of facts in this film, or the otherwise absurdity (cesarean) of certain scenes, wouldn't and couldn't succeed in making me aware of its ridiculousness or impede my overall enjoyment because of the grander scope the film adopts, asking us to look at wider implications or the bigger picture, and in my initial post I expounded on why the character interaction was detrimental in this respect. Discovering that I was misinformed about the intentions of the engineers sure does tidy things up a bit, though, and I say "misinformed" because it's the film's duty to make these matters clear to me...

Unless it was plenty clear enough and I was just being lazy!

EDIT: Clarity and stuff.

Last edited by st.alfonzo on 08-03-12 at 05:16

08-03-12 04:53 #

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DoomUK
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Finally got around to watching this.

I was left with mixed feelings. On one hand it's a really well-made film which stands head and shoulders above most big-budget, summer blockbuster sci-fi action type movies these days, on the other it's a convoluted mess which doesn't belong in the Alien franchise, with forgettable characters and a few too many lazy references to Alien while not being entirely compatible with things that have been established previous (or should I say, subsequent) films.

I get that Ridley Scott directed the original film so he has some kind of say about how things work, but why are things suddenly so complicated? What is the black sludge? Who are the engineers and did they create life on earth or what? Was the giant octopus/squid thing supposed to be some kind of prototype facehugger, and why was it so ridiculously massive besides being a hideous and disgusting monster for the viewers? Why does the prototype xenomorph burst out of the engineer's chest not as a chestburster but as what's presumably a fully-grown proto-xenomorph?

I suppose we'll get answers in the sequels, and I'm fine some questions being left unanswered and some new ones being raised. But I think the films spreads itself a little thin and tries to be smarter and more complex than it needs to be. The Alien movies are really simple and they worked brilliantly for it. Too many things are implied in Prometheus without being developed or explained.

Oh, and Noomi Rapace was a terrible choice for the main protagonist and doesn't begin to match the charisma and presence of Sigourney Weaver.

Last edited by DoomUK on 09-10-12 at 18:38

09-10-12 18:22 #

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Mogul
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My review: David was an interesting character.

09-10-12 18:32 #

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DoomUK
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Mogul said:
My review: David was an interesting character.

He looked after the ship and the crew while everyone was asleep, and then translated Weyland's question for the engineer before his head got ripped off. Besides that he was Ash all over again, except he didn't malfunction and try to rape anyone with a magazine.

09-10-12 18:42 #

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DooMAD
Doom IS a religion.

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Just watched it. Not great. Also not understanding the decision to butcher the timeline to add Weyland's character to the film, only to cast a different actor? WTF were they smoking?

//EDIT: Obligatory Hijinks Ensue comic:

http://hijinksensue.com/comics/2012-06-18-the-fassbender-and-the-furious.jpg

Last edited by DooMAD on 09-10-12 at 23:35

09-10-12 22:57 #

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kristus
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That sums it up quite nicely.

09-10-12 23:59 #

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dethstriken
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I'm new around here and to forums in general, so don't take it too hard on me but in response to:

Foofoo said:
personally i don't get how people have high expectations of modern sequels, prequels and remakes. i mean, they're usually horrible aren't they? :/ or atleast off the mark.

Have you seen dark night rises? I mean the whole Christopher Nolan reboot of the batman is amazing. I don't want to turn this into a Nolan vs Burton debate, but I mean Nolan's reboot is fantastic. I also understand that the two movies are based on different story arks, but come on, Nolan has created an classic piece of cinema.
But back on the alien vs prometheus topic, Aliens kicks ass. A modern reboot, in my opinion is needed for the whole franchise,.adding cannon to a story line is always well deserved and means that those that are making the kick ass movies out there don't forget about the people who really matter and those that make or break a movie, us, the fans.

09-11-12 00:50 #

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DoomUK
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DooMAD said:
Also not understanding the decision to butcher the timeline

You mean the AvP films? No one considers them canon anymore.

09-11-12 08:38 #

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The Lag
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i don't care what is canon and what isn't.
the only 2 films that have anything to do with xenomorphs that are worth half a damn are Alien and Aliens.
Alien3 is also pretty decent.
Promethius is shitty. end of story. shitty.
the end.

09-11-12 10:46 #

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Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > if you're an Alien fan, for GOD'S SAKE, do not watch "Prometheus" [yes, spoilers]

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