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Mr. T
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DooMAD said:
Looks like Russia are the first to blink and try to ban/censor the film. As if that's going to help.

Horse. Bolted. Gate.



The last thing Putin needs is angry Muslims in the RF. He's just finished turning Chechnya into a crater, and recruiting their remaining men into the Russian army to go and fuck up their REAL enemy – Georgians. Lol!

Old Post 09-18-12 07:17 #
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Gez
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Mr. T said:
when "we" are the ones killing them on a large scale.

They are perfectly able and willing to slaughter themselves on a large scale.

Old Post 09-18-12 10:46 #
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Mr. T
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I don't see what relevance an internal civil war has to do with Muslim anger at "the west", other than reinforce your (ridiculous, and quite frankly, racist) meme that Muslims are somehow animals.

Old Post 09-18-12 10:59 #
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Maes
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Mr. T said:
I find it interesting that people are so willing to condemn people in these countries for "overreacting" to an insult against them, when "we" are the ones killing them on a large scale. ~100k civilian casualties in Iraq alone would speak for themselves. If they weren't dead.


But were those civilians killed because they were Muslims, or "simply" because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Namely, in a -formerly- sovereign country targeted by USA and its (willing?) allies? The same thing happened to Yugoslavia though in a smaller scale, for whatever reason, and those were not Muslims.

Also, when we're talking "moderate" Christian we mean a very different thing that "moderate" Muslim. It's like comparing a schoolgirl with braces to the school bully.

Find me a Muslim, as moderate as necessary, who would just laugh off the film (most "Christians" would laugh off Piss Christ, for example, while most Muslims would take offence EVEN at that) and then we're talking.

Old Post 09-18-12 12:10 #
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neubejiita
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Maes said:


But were those civilians killed because they were Muslims, or "simply" because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Namely, in a -formerly- sovereign country targeted by USA and its (willing?) allies? The same thing happened to Yugoslavia though in a smaller scale, for whatever reason, and those were not Muslims.

Also, when we're talking "moderate" Christian we mean a very different thing that "moderate" Muslim. It's like comparing a schoolgirl with braces to the school bully.

Find me a Muslim, as moderate as necessary, who would just laugh off the film (most "Christians" would laugh off Piss Christ, for example, while most Muslims would take offence EVEN at that) and then we're talking.



But imagine the shit-storm if he made piss_Muhammad. The world would burn.

Old Post 09-18-12 13:01 #
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Gez
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Mr. T said:
I don't see what relevance an internal civil war has to do with Muslim anger at "the west", other than reinforce your (ridiculous, and quite frankly, racist) meme that Muslims are somehow animals.

I don't know whether it's worth responding given how eager you are to put words in my mouth.

I criticize Islam for being a religion of social control incompatible with modern moral values of self-determination (also alluding to certain Christian sects with the same problem), and Islamists for being violent enforcers of repressive conformism, spilling blood at the slightest provocation. If that is a "meme" dehumanizing all Muslims; then I guess I must have missed the latest social justice memo.

Maybe I should put trigger warnings on my posts. TW: vehement anti-clericalism.

Old Post 09-18-12 13:02 #
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Maes
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neubejiita said:
But imagine the shit-storm if he made piss_Muhammad. The world would burn.


Even without that particular qualifier, the world would still burn, and nothing more need be said. You just can't get along with someone who has a fight-picking attitude ALL the time.

Old Post 09-18-12 13:45 #
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Doom Marine
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Creaphis said:
I bring this up because the middle east is populated primarily by cultures of honour. In the distant past, many people in this region lived a subsistence life of goat herding, which favours those who can most jealously guard their own herd, while also most viciously responding to attacks and insults - both real and perceived. This cultural legacy seems to be immortal in all studied populations; American southerners are still more likely than northerners to hold onto grudges today simply because their ancestors include Scottish herdsmen who lived centuries ago. The Muslim culture is just that: a culture, in which feelings of resentment are constantly building and seeking expression. The banner of Islam is merely there to serve as a kinship bond, which focuses the people's rage onto a common enemy rather than on their own brothers' throats.
Another factor fueling the unrest in the Muslim world (Middle East) is stratification of wealth. Since the desert life favors whoever can jealously guard their own herd, while viciously responding to attacks and insults, power is easily centralized and this tends to favor a patriarchal society in which a handful of males are able to attain a vast amount of wealth.

Forward to modern day where you have a handful of oil sheikh billionaires in countries where basic needs of the average citizen are not met. This stratification of wealth creates a slum of have-nots without jobs, money, and the ability to secure a stable living. Nothing is better for unrest than unemployment and poverty. Given that America invaded the Middle East every other Tuesday, it's perfectly logical that the Great Satan is keeping the Islamic world down, and not the hoarding of wealth in the hands of a few, nor the subjugation of free speech, nor the subjugation of women, right? Of course your wealthy local cleric is right.

One has to wonder, why are these folks such religious zealots? To understand the desert mentality is to understand the tropical mentality. Compare the two:

From Discover Magazine:

Robert Sapolsky said:
Deserts teach large, singular lessons, like how tough, spare, and withholding the environment is; the world is reduced to simple, desiccated, furnace-blasted basics. Then picture rain forest people amid an abundance of edible plants and medicinal herbs, able to identify more species of ants on a single tree than one would find in all the British Isles. Letting a thousand deities bloom in this sort of setting must seem natural. Moreover, those rain forest dwellers that are monotheistic are much less likely to believe that their god sticks his or her nose into other people’s business by controlling the weather, prompting illness, or the like.

Shit, if I had a choice between being born in a tropical forest full of nudie freaks engaging in pre-marital sex while a thousand deities peeps on, or born in a desert in fear of the almighty because I was desperate and fucked a goat... I think I'm going polytheistic.

Old Post 09-18-12 14:42 #
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SYS
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Doom Marine said:

Forward to modern day where you have a handful of oil sheikh billionaires in countries where basic needs of the average citizen are not met. This stratification of wealth creates a slum of have-nots without jobs, money, and the ability to secure a stable living.

That's a global issue only it's seen as governments, bankers, & multinational corporations in economic disparity. The only distinction is a climate of radical Islam and fighting against what they view as an oppression of their beliefs. Aside from whitey blowing them up for wanting to blow whitey up.

Islam isn't the only religion in which radical sects choose to interpret or misinterpret their own scripture to rationalize their beliefs and centralize power.

Old Post 09-18-12 21:00 #
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Maes
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SYS said:
Islam isn't the only religion in which radical sects choose to interpret or misinterpret their own scripture to rationalize their beliefs and centralize power.


But it's the only one to have survived to our days in such a form. In the West we've had this wonderful little thing called the Age of Reason and Illuminism. It's not ideal, in the same sense that e.g. Democracy isn't the perfect governance system, but it's still "The best of the possible worlds".

Old Post 09-18-12 21:58 #
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Doom Juan
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Best youtube comment I found relating to this:

"crap low budget shit. this movies absurdity is surpassed only by the muslim reaction to it."

Old Post 09-19-12 00:53 #
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SYS
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Maes said:


But it's the only one to have survived to our days in such a form. In the West we've had this wonderful little thing called the Age of Reason and Illuminism. It's not ideal, in the same sense that e.g. Democracy isn't the perfect governance system, but it's still "The best of the possible worlds".

True, but let's not forget the West has supported and financed radical causes to their own ends. It's not to make claim as a sole causation. It's makes for a great power play (repercussions aside), if we are to believe the blood for oil propagandists.

Old Post 09-19-12 04:34 #
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GreyGhost
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Maes said:

But it's the only one to have survived to our days in such a form. In the West we've had this wonderful little thing called the Age of Reason and Illuminism.

In the West we also have this wonderful little thing called the Christian Right, who are selecting the textbooks to be used in US schools and have almost total control of the Republican party. I don't see them going away any time soon.

Old Post 09-19-12 04:49 #
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Aliotroph?
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Being an atheist, I'm happy criticizing any religion for simply existing.

Old Post 09-19-12 05:37 #
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Mr. T
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Maes said:


In the West we've had this wonderful little thing called the Age of Reason and Illuminism.



Age of Reason and Illuminism: Greatest Hits!

http://wp.menloschool.org/mwhgblock/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/congo3.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S33882,_Adolf_Hitler_retouched.jpg/230px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S33882,_Adolf_Hitler_retouched.jpg

http://christophertucker.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/colored-only-sign.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/My_Lai_massacre.jpg/220px-My_Lai_massacre.jpg

Old Post 09-19-12 09:46 #
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Maes
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GreyGhost said:
In the West we also have this wonderful little thing called the Christian Right, who are selecting the textbooks to be used in US schools and have almost total control of the Republican party. I don't see them going away any time soon.


That's a relatively recent re-emergence, but I don't see them getting Islam-like power anytime soon, not even in the most ass-backwards backwaters of the U.S. of A. As soon as they start interfering too much with Big Business and Capital, they will be sent right back where they belong, so if they are to even become mainstream, they'll have to keep a low profile.


Mr. T said:
Age of Reason and Illuminism: Greatest Hits!


To be fair, the examples you cite should be classed as Colonialism, Rise of Nationalism in the 20th century etc. both a byproduct of savage Capitalism and Imperialism. And yet, to our current historical knowledge, that's still the "best of possible worlds", or at least the only possible one (except for going even more backwards, like Islam does). There's not ONE historical occurence of a race or a nation that thrived without this being at somebody else's expense. At that point, you can only talk in relative terms. E.g. would Africa be better off if it had been conquered by Arabs instead of Europeans? What if the USA had become a Spanish colony instead ? What would it be today?

Islam are currently trying to achieve two contrasting goals:


  • Internal isolation and shielding from outside influence. In that sense it's THE most anti-globalisation mainstream religion.
  • And yet, they are not happy with making JUST those stupid enough to follow their own religion miserable: they also want to expand their borders, or rather, assimilating everything into its own ass-backwardness. After all, on of the literal meaning of Islam is "annihilation of the self and service to God".



Islam is kind of like a Reverse Borg: you ARE assimilated (though resistance is not futile...yet), but unlike the Borg Hive, this brings no benefit or advancement to Islam as a whole: everyone is eventually reduced to a towelhead, a muslim beard, and a prayer carpet, or a Burqa.

At least the set of values of Christianity have shifted and adapted through the ages, in order not to become pictoresquely stale and be left behind. Islam OTOH considers to be perfect, immutable, and "know it all" already, and its clergy strives so that no major changes ever occur.

Last edited by Maes on 09-19-12 at 11:40

Old Post 09-19-12 11:34 #
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Quast
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Maes said:
That's a relatively recent re-emergence, but I don't see them getting Islam-like power anytime soon, not even in the most ass-backwards backwaters of the U.S. of A. As soon as they start interfering too much with Big Business and Capital, they will be sent right back where they belong, so if they are to even become mainstream, they'll have to keep a low profile.

What? Become mainstream? It IS, and it's certainly not regulated to 'backwaters' unless that's what you consider populous and wealthy suburbs to be. Not to mention being very much in bed with money, business and politics.

Old Post 09-19-12 12:00 #
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TheEndOfUs
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We better get used to ideological diversity, this change is inevitable. Fossil fuel dependency, geopolitics & current social & economic conditions are the reason for this, not only religion. People talk about the West like it is the world, it is not. Emerging powers are rising & forming their own conceptions of order & paths to modernity.

Old Post 09-19-12 12:31 #
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Maes
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Quast said:

What? Become mainstream? It IS, and it's certainly not regulated to 'backwaters' unless that's what you consider populous and wealthy suburbs to be. Not to mention being very much in bed with money, business and politics.



As long as it keeps -as you said- being some sort of upper-class caprice, it's not a serious threat.

Unless e.g. crap like Creationism becomes so radicated to the point that all bio-tech firms will have to close down, DNA evidence stops being acceptable in courts because "incompatible" with those beliefs etc. (though in those cases there's the workaround that Saudis do: just bring foreign engineers and scientists, but keep them well away from the general population).

Old Post 09-19-12 12:31 #
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NiGHTMARE
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Aliotroph? said:
Being an atheist, I'm happy criticizing any religion for simply existing.


By most dictionary definitions of the word "religion", atheism is also a religion.

Agnosticism is where it's at.

Old Post 09-19-12 12:50 #
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fraggle
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NiGHTMARE said:


By most dictionary definitions of the word "religion", atheism is also a religion.

Agnosticism is where it's at.

Nope. "Atheism" just means a lack of a belief in a god ("a-theist" = "not a theist"). It does not mean a belief in no god.

If it's not clear, agnosticism correction hedgehog will explain further.

Old Post 09-19-12 13:00 #
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DooMAD
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Expect further escalations as a French magazine has just published some caricatures of the prophet Mohammed in the nude. Smart.

Old Post 09-19-12 18:35 #
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Eris Falling
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I imagine they'll get away with it because they aren't American.
Or at least, the shit they DO get in won't be as deep.

Old Post 09-19-12 18:36 #
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Maes
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Islamic ethics in a nutshell:


  • If you depict prophet Muhammad, we kill you.
  • If you depict prophet Muhammad in a disrespectful way, we kill you twice.

Old Post 09-19-12 18:57 #
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ducon
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DooMAD said:

Expect further escalations as a French magazine has just published some caricatures of the prophet Mohammed in the nude. Smart.



What’s the problem? Because 0.001% of muslims (and any other religion) are fuckers, one must shut up?

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Old Post 09-19-12 19:24 #
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Maes
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ducon said:
What’s the problem? Because 0.001% of muslims (and any other religion) are fuckers, one must shut up?


Yes. And that 0.001% will actually see that you do. NO COMPROMISE (unless you bag them first...)

Old Post 09-19-12 20:20 #
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Technician
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Muslims decry new Prophet Muhammad cartoons in France as new insult

CAIRO: Muslim leaders criticized a French magazine's publication of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad on Wednesday as another western insult to their faith and urged France's government to take firm action against it.

"We reject and condemn the French cartoons that dishonour the Prophet and we condemn any action that defames the sacred according to people's beliefs," the acting head of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party, Essam Erian, said.

The cartoons were featured in the French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo. Its front cover showed an Orthodox Jew pushing a turbaned figure in a wheelchair and several caricatures of the Prophet were included on its inside pages, including some of him naked.

Erian said the French judiciary should deal with the issue as firmly as it had handled the case against the magazine which published topless pictures of Britain's Duchess of Cambridge, the wife of Prince William.

"If the case of Kate (the duchess) is a matter of privacy, then the cartoons are an insult to a whole people. The beliefs of others must be respected," he said.

Erian also spoke out against any violent reaction from Muslims but said peaceful protests were justified.

Mahmoud Ghozlan, spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood, welcomed French government criticism of the cartoons but said that French law should deal with insults against Islam in the same way as it deals with Holocaust denial.

"If anyone doubts the Holocaust happened, they are imprisoned, yet if anyone insults the Prophet, his companions or Islam, the most (France) does is to apologize in two words. It is not fair or logical," he said.

In Lebanon, leading Salafist cleric Sheikh Nabil Rahim said the cartoons were extremely insulting and could lead to more violence.

"Of course it will anger people further. It will raise tensions that were already dangerously high."

He accused those involved of trying provoke a clash of civilizations, not dialogue.

"We will try to keep things managed and peaceful, but these things easily get out of hand. I fear there could more targeting of foreigners, and this is why I wish they would not persist with these provocations."

Really, France? Do you actually imprison Holocaust deniers?

Old Post 09-19-12 20:22 #
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Eris Falling
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Technician said:
Really, France? Do you actually imprison Holocaust deniers?


I imagine that holocaust deniers aren't the most popular people in France (or anywhere).
He's just upset because Muslims aren't a majority of France's population.

Old Post 09-19-12 20:28 #
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Krispy
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I'm staying out of this one.

Old Post 09-19-12 23:35 #
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gggmork
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A completely shitty video with magic undeserved viral marketing memetic backing, hmm, wonder if the government was involved in creating it. I wonder if the creator of the video will be found masturbating in public like the creator of kony 2012. We're all allowed to post videos on "you"tube but don't know each one updates your utah supercomputer profile as to whether you are pro-establishment and a number indicating order to be dragged off via the NDAA. You thought you were searching google but google was searching you. Also I know the government is spying on me through my monitor. They have endless videos of me eating my boogers and plan to blackmail with them I suspect, WELL IT WON'T WORK because I will post those videos MYSELF! Yes, I eat my boogers OK???
disclaimer: All of my posts are fictional, any basis in reality is coincidental.

Old Post 09-20-12 02:29 #
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