Icon of Sin / Baphomet
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Hello bigotry ad in NYC subway
 
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 13:07. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Mr. Chris
Forum Legend


Posts: 4614
Registered: 07-02


Link

NEW YORK (AP) A provocative ad that equates Muslim radicals with savages is set to go up in the city's subway system as violent protests over an anti-Islamic film ridiculing the Prophet Muhammad sweep over much of the Muslim world.

A conservative blogger who once headed a campaign against an Islamic center near the Sept. 11 terror attack site won a court order to post the ad in 10 subway stations next Monday. The ad reads, "In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel. Defeat Jihad."


Gee, don't you think it's a BAD time with that distasteful Jewish American video and French comic?

Old Post 09-21-12 05:44 #
Mr. Chris is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
BloodyAcid
Senior Member


Posts: 1276
Registered: 09-11


lulz, more retarded hating.

Old Post 09-21-12 06:10 #
BloodyAcid is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Jimmy
doesn't rhyme with MIDI :(


Posts: 1470
Registered: 04-06


*headdesk*

At this rate the end of the world will happen on 21 Dec 2012 when World War 3 wipes us all out. All because of some ridiculous name-calling and hatemongering adding fuel to the already grisly violence.

__________________
Jimmy's YouTube Channel - All my recent stuff!
Jimmy's MIDI Powerhouse - More than 150 original MIDIs!
Jimmy's TwitchTV Stream! - Tune in for Doom and music!
Jimmy's Blog of Death - I make terrible posts here.

Old Post 09-21-12 06:16 #
Jimmy is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hex11
Forum Staple


Posts: 2237
Registered: 09-09


Wait, who cares about Isreal? We should instead be waging war against the chinese, because they're communists!

Old Post 09-21-12 06:50 #
hex11 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7607
Registered: 08-04


This is what we need... I know America caters to the Zionist agenda, but your pushing it, Israel.

Old Post 09-21-12 07:46 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
Forum Staple


Posts: 2438
Registered: 04-07


"Stop Islamization of America"? "It's not Islamophobia, it's Islamorealism."? Are you fucking shitting me? All these people want are to live among Americans, as Americans, and not to be treated like extremists based solely on negative stereotypes their religion. Which, mind you, is more of a locale thing, western Muslims are ordinary westerners, as they've been assimilated into our culture and way of doing things, which is secularism and western laws. If you treat these people as actual human beings and not profile them as ticking time-bombs, there won't be some kind of "jihadist uprising" or whatever these right-wing whackjobs think is gonna happen. They'll just be assimilated into our culture without prejudice, just like the hundreds of other religions people practice in the United States.

Either way, they have a right to say this stuff, but I do hope that their views are not adopted by the public at large, and that views like them disappear.

Note that I do know several Muslim-Americans, they're perfectly okay people, and they don't take their religion all too seriously.

Old Post 09-21-12 08:13 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Belial
Senior Member


Posts: 2171
Registered: 09-05



Sodaholic said:
western Muslims are ordinary westerners, as they've been assimilated into our culture and way of doing things, which is secularism and western laws

Growing use of Sharia by UK Muslims
Survey: 61 percent of British Muslims want Sharia courts
18% of Muslims in Denmark agree that "Sharia law should be integrated into Danish law"

Last edited by Belial on 09-21-12 at 09:43

Old Post 09-21-12 09:37 #
Belial is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
GreyGhost
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 8136
Registered: 01-08


Shit + fan = big dry-cleaning bill.

Old Post 09-21-12 09:55 #
GreyGhost is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 11784
Registered: 07-06



Sodaholic said:
All these people want are to live among Americans, as Americans


Wrong. Islam is the only mainstream religion that doesn't admit "abandoning" it, renouncing it or switching to another (doing any of the above is actually yet another way to get marked for death, it's actually a capital sin).

What EVERY Muslim wants, wherever he goes, is that the non-Islamic stuff around him turn Islamic, the sooner the better. The only admittable religion is Islam, the only admittable Law is Sharia (Islamic Law) etc. (see Belial's links).

No Muslim goes abroad in order to, well, stop being a Muslim (even if that's what pushed him to emigrate in the first place). Once you understand that, you'll also understand a lot of things about why they act the way they do.

Old Post 09-21-12 12:03 #
Maes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
eargosedown
Forum Regular


Posts: 913
Registered: 12-04



Maes said:


Wrong. Islam is the only mainstream religion that doesn't admit "abandoning" it, renouncing it or switching to another (doing any of the above is actually yet another way to get marked for death, it's actually a capital sin).

What EVERY Muslim wants, wherever he goes, is that the non-Islamic stuff around him turn Islamic, the sooner the better. The only admittable religion is Islam, the only admittable Law is Sharia (Islamic Law) etc. (see Belial's links).

No Muslim goes abroad in order to, well, stop being a Muslim (even if that's what pushed him to emigrate in the first place). Once you understand that, you'll also understand a lot of things about why they act the way they do.



I'm pretty sure Mormonism is the same, and it's pretty mainstream. Well, here in parts of the U.S. anyways.

Old Post 09-21-12 20:28 #
eargosedown is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Ladna
Member


Posts: 271
Registered: 04-10


People who blow things up, set things on fire, kill innocent people and generally cause mayhem because they're offended are assholes. It doesn't really matter what their religion is, and I seriously can't figure out why we care anyway.

It's a mistake to characterize a religion by its radical members. It's also a mistake to live your life in fear of those radicals. COME AT ME BRO.

Old Post 09-22-12 07:09 #
Ladna is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Snakes
Forum Staple


Posts: 2298
Registered: 09-09



Ladna said:
People who blow things up, set things on fire, kill innocent people and generally cause mayhem because they're offended are assholes. It doesn't really matter what their religion is, and I seriously can't figure out why we care anyway.

We probably care because they are blowing things up, setting things on fire, killing people, and generally causing mayhem.

Just a wild-as-hell stab in the dark.

Old Post 09-22-12 08:30 #
Snakes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
Forum Staple


Posts: 2438
Registered: 04-07



Ladna said:
It's a mistake to characterize a religion by its radical members. It's also a mistake to live your life in fear of those radicals.

This summarizes exactly what I was trying to say. Except you do it better, since I did it in a wall of text, and you got the same message across in a much clearer way in only two sentences. :P

Old Post 09-22-12 08:41 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
DoomUK
Forum Spammer


Posts: 3838
Registered: 04-04



Ladna said:
It's a mistake to characterize a religion by its radical members.

I sort of agree.

But you have to realise radicals and fundamentalists are only basing their behaviour on what some book tells them to do, the same book that non-radicals somehow cherry pick, only incorporating the good and wholesome aspects into their lives. It's a very thin line. Given the right (or rather, wrong) persuasion, given the right environmental circumstances, a non-violent Muslim could turn into a violent one. I'm also sure a more rational Christian could turn into a fundamentalist if they were influenced in a certain way.

While I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, I guess I don't fully trust the integrity of anyone who bases their lives on a doctrine which is open to interpretation.

Old Post 09-22-12 08:59 #
DoomUK is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Alfonzo
Broadcaster


Posts: 825
Registered: 01-10



Ladna said:
It's a mistake to characterize a religion by its radical members. It's also a mistake to live your life in fear of those radicals. COME AT ME BRO.
Coming at you now. Grab hold of your gremlins!

The second part cannot be repeated enough, so no quibbles there... but in saying that it's a mistake to characterize a religion by its radical members, are you suggesting that it should instead by characterized by its moderates, or rather by its scripture/teachings? It seems to me that the only correct approach is in the latter, as it's the holy books that grant divine warrant for the actions committed by followers of the faith. Fundamentalists do however, by definition, live by the preachments of those books as close as they possibly can, and in this respect Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Osama Bin Laden were very good Muslims.

On point, though, these advertisements are not promoting the war of ideas that they should be, which, oddly enough, and if there must be advertisements at all, is something that committed Christians are in a better position to assist with thanks to their understanding of what it means to believe in a personal creator of the universe... and so too ahead of many liberals who continue to be convinced that the war we find ourselves in is less so to do with religious zealotry and more with poverty, deprivation, lack of education and so forth.
Unfortunately, this seemingly inextinguishable resolve to paint the enemies of reason as savages or backward animals is not going to help in providing us with the tools needed to actually combat the problem. Neither will it help the world grow out of this debilitating need to provide cover for actions made by the religious; something which moderates and liberals alike are chiefly responsible for.

EDIT(ED): for closure!

Last edited by Alfonzo on 09-22-12 at 10:03

Old Post 09-22-12 09:30 #
Alfonzo is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Ladna
Member


Posts: 271
Registered: 04-10



Snakes said:

We probably care because they are blowing things up, setting things on fire, killing people, and generally causing mayhem.

Just a wild-as-hell stab in the dark.



My point, when I ask "why do we care what their religion is", is threefold.

1. It implies that crazy Muslim radicals can be reasoned with, "if only we just understood them a little better". This is obviously not the case, as their entire worldview is comically devoid of reason.

2. Even if we were to "understand" them, crazy Muslim radicals demand that we do ludicrous things like force women to cover up, never drink and never eat bacon. I'd rather throw acid in my own face and stone myself to death before I did that. Live Free or Die. USA #1.

3. As soon as you initiate violence, you lose your right to be understood. Terrorist, meet drone, gg.

===

Re: what makes a terrorist

I'm not an expert. My personal belief is that it's a lot like gangs. Young men, poor, disenchanted and constantly humiliated are preyed upon by religious fundamentalists that give them self-respect, community and status. I think it's worse in Islamic countries because, as many have pointed out here, a lot of those countries are theocracies so you can go a lot further down the crazy road before anyone notices a problem. There's a very fine line between being a "good Muslim" and a "sexist, abusive, murdering asshole", and there's not a lot of guidance away from violence in those cultures.

In that vein, I'm guessing the solution is economic development (private enterprise), cultural & religious liberalism, and a strong, secular, law-bound police force. All the things the US tries to promote and organizations like the Taliban and Al-Qaeda oppose, coincidentally.... Hearts & minds guys, hearts & minds.

===

Re: fundamentalism & religion

Fundamentalism is always dangerous, because fundamentalists can't be reasoned with. They're like the zombie horde of Jesus/Allah/Spaghetti. That's why I usually separate them out from other practitioners, because I actually separate them out from the entire human race.

I think characterizing a religion by its followers is an imperfect measure. People in the US South raped and whipped slaves to death while reciting scripture. On the other hand, Christian charities rival the US in terms of aid given to poor, struggling regions when you factor in manpower.

What I mean when I say, "it's a mistake to characterize a religion by its radical members" is that you shouldn't look at the 1st generation Pakistani family down the street and assume they're terrorists because of what you saw on the news about radical Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims, just like the vast majority of everybody, are good, reasonable people.

That's not to say that a lot of them don't have stupid ideas. Sharia law's views on dress, marriage, sex, inheritance, etc. are goddamn retarded. But a lot of Muslims are still 1st generation immigrants and they don't really know anything else, and it's also worth saying that the US had similar problems when it was still accepting huge amounts of European immigrants in the late 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. Stuff like this improves over time as people from countries that regularly gas thousands of people for having the wrong color of clothes gradually come to realize that was hellish and they didn't deserve it, and they certainly don't have to perpetuate it. Kids generally help with this :).

Of course, a large barrier to acculturation is xenophobia. When you have large portions of bigoted, white society denying entry to immigrants, what you end up with are barrios, chinatowns, ghettos, etc. Then these idiots point to what they created and say, "SEE?!?! WE TOLD YOU THEY WERE SUBHUMAN." Ugh. Indeed stupidity is found in all cultures.

===

Re: savages

You know I agree that deliberately trying to piss people off generally doesn't help anything. On the other hand, I can understand people being upset because it seems like A FUCKIN YOUTUBE VIDEO IS AN EXCUSE TO SET EVERYTHING ON FIRE. The immediate reaction from all the news I watched (and I watch a lot of news) was, "wow, look at the HORRIFYING, TERRIBLE, AMAZING POWER OF YOUTUBE, WE REALLY NEED SOME WAY TO REIGN THAT IN". There's also a movement to try and get people to stop offending Muslims by not posting YouTube videos or not printing offensive cartoons or not putting up ads in subways. No. What we need to reign in is violence, not speech. Live Free or Die. USA #1.

Old Post 09-22-12 10:38 #
Ladna is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
pilottobombadier
Stained Class King


Posts: 1195
Registered: 06-01


My spin on the whole debate:

1: On the point of violence: I disagree - very strongly, actually - that a person loses their right to be understood once the resort to violence. You have to understand that people resort to violence because the power of dialogue is either lost, unavailable or has been taken away. In that regard, understanding is more important than ever.

This is one of the most pathetic and terrible concepts of our culture, the complete psychological downgrade of the power of violence - the first power and THE final say. At the end of the day, when all avenues have been exhausted, violence will be successful.

It's not like bin Laden was negotiated down, was it? It wasn't like WWII was settled over a pint and a joke. And it's not like the Vietnamese won their personal freedom from colonial attitudes with their charm.


2: Cherrypicking: Radicals do it, too. Radical followers take the bits they like to justify what their doing, and radical leaders take the bits that they like and twist the ones they don't to manipulate decent people to do horrible fucking things.

3: The west and attitudes toward religion: really don't get it because everything has been mashed together. We've created a lot of behavioural philosophies (such as the one regarding violence) that are extremely self-destructive in the name of "Improving Society", and for all of our alleged acceptance, WE'RE still a bunch of ignorant savages. However, our preferred power exclusion and verbal/mental abuse, not violence. The damage is much worse because it's covert - and it makes our opponents act covertly - and they do, as we've seen.

Now, that said, for all of these Muslims' desires for Sharia Law, those samplings are taken from the legal voters - most of which who are first- and second-generation. Regardless of their desires, no sane western culture is going to implement it. The Muslims think it's okay to give Jews and Christians their own sets of non-secular laws in their countries, but they forget that these laws are very similar, and are also, as far as we're (and anyone with a sense of ethics and fairness) concerned, ALL bullshit.

4: On liberalising: This isn't going to solve the problem. Violence is actually half of the answer here. The reason for this is because the people funding these assholes need to disappear. But, we also need to change our attitudes in dealing with Asian Muslims. I mean, c'mon, only those disposable princes are benefitting from the oil fields. We expect them to respect as as humans, but our business - which, really, is the foremost dimplomat - does not.

5: On censorship: It needs to be exercised in this case. Everyone has a right to say what they want, but not without consequence. That the city is allowing this puts both the creator of these posters and the city in an actionable position. These attitudes belong in the privacy of one's home, and nowhere else.

6: On reigning in violence - this can either be done by fear or respect. If you remove the elements that make these people afraid and show them that you will protect and nurture them, you win. If you bomb the fuck out of them, you win temporarily - and ultimately lose even harder. Either way, violence will be a necessity. But as long as you don't target the innocent, it will be appreciated and you will be loved.

Old Post 09-24-12 15:07 #
pilottobombadier is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 13:07. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
 
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Hello bigotry ad in NYC subway

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Message Board Statistics