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Gez
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The start menu, meh, I've grown used to it but back in the Windows 95 days I used to mock it. Certainly, on Windows versions until Vista, I've been more reliant on the quicklaunch bar. I always disliked how applications installed themselves in the start menu according to who wrote them, rather than what they do. (E.g., I don't want Firefox in a Mozilla folder and Chrome in a Google folder; I want both in the Internet folder.)

That the start menu is removed in Win8 isn't that much of a problem, depending on what it's replaced with.

No, the reason I don't want to give Microsoft Windows 8 a chance is that I do not want anything Metro-related to taint my computer. If I wanted an "environment" that can only run one application at a time, and in full-screen, with an UI that you have to learn because it isn't actually displayed in an intuitive fashion, then I would install DOS.

I also don't like "safety" measures such as ratting out to Microsoft every software I install on my computer.

And I don't understand why I'm supposed to be logged in a MS Live account to use basic, Internet-less applications. Windows 8 (the first Windows without, you know, windows in it) is designed so that Microsoft is your PC's real owner; and the users are constantly monitored.

Old Post 11-13-12 21:07 #
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hex11
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Even DOS let you run more than one program at a time, with QEMM or something equivalent (or better yet, just run DR-DOS). And although the default UI was plain text console, you could always run a TUI launcher menu, or filemanager (Norton Utilities type stuff). Heck, some DOS programs were even full-blown GUI (Wordperfect, Deluxe Paint...) You could even run 4DOS to improve the actual shell interface. Lots of stuff was possible...

Old Post 11-13-12 21:27 #
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Jodwin
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Gez said:
Windows 8 (the first Windows without, you know, windows in it)

not sure if serious (also, Metro can display two apps at once with others running in background ;) )


@hex11: You can log in with usual Windows credentials. The online login is a double edged sword: On one hand it does leave future possibilities for some really nasty abuse from MS' part, on the other hand it lets users synchronize their settings and content between devices more effectively (fun fact: Office 2013 also lets you sign in with that account, allowing access to your SkyDrive and Office apps regardless of what device you're on). As to how it'll turn out, in the end it's one of those "only time will tell" things.

Old Post 11-13-12 21:29 #
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Phml
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^ The way they manage to make each version more hideous than the previous one is impressive. Specifically talking about those minimize, maximize and close buttons. Black on solid blue, and a solid red button with a white cross next to that? I literally have to squint at the screen to see these properly, and this is a ~1360x760 screenshot! Who the hell designs that stuff?

Then there's the ribbon in file explorer. That just makes me want to curl up and whimper. I've had Office 2007 for three years now, and I still can't use the interface efficiently.

Old Post 11-13-12 21:41 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Yeah, it's pretty hideous. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be any better than Aero; I'd go with classic over that.

Old Post 11-13-12 21:47 #
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Enjay
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Foolish question I know but, if I don't want to use the "baby's first computer" interface (Metro) and there isn't a start menu, where do I keep all the shortcuts to my programs? Bonus question: Where will it put the shortcuts that older programs try to create in the start menu?

Old Post 11-13-12 22:28 #
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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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Enjay said:
Foolish question I know but, if I don't want to use the "baby's first computer" interface (Metro) and there isn't a start menu, where do I keep all the shortcuts to my programs? Bonus question: Where will it put the shortcuts that older programs try to create in the start menu?

Same place where Windows 7 puts shortcuts that older programs try to create in the quick launch menu?

Old Post 11-13-12 22:38 #
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Graf Zahl
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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I see absolutely no point wasting money on a Windows 'upgrade' and my current machine is merely 6 months old so f*ck 'em.

Maybe if they continue to play these antics with DirectX some game developers will force AMD to develop a decent OpenGL driver so that they are no longer dependent on MS for graphics hardware access.

Old Post 11-13-12 22:43 #
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printz
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Enjay said:
Foolish question I know but, if I don't want to use the "baby's first computer" interface (Metro) and there isn't a start menu, where do I keep all the shortcuts to my programs? Bonus question: Where will it put the shortcuts that older programs try to create in the start menu?
The fun part is that when you install something, the program + associated text and auxiliary files would appear in a subfolder on the Start menu. But with Windows 8, the Start screen is flat, without subfolders. Now imagine the jumble that will happen when you install many apps, including different versions of one brand.

To answer the question, well I've placed many shortcuts on the taskbar, by pinning them after opening them. Because of the Start screen, I've also pinned Run and Control Panel there.

To be honest, I think that Windows 8's attempts at ease-of-use and versatility have nothing in comparison with OSX's. It seems like Metro was pimped on Windows 8 for desktops just because. But I'm in no real position to talk about this, because I don't and can't (for now) have the latest version of OSX.

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Last edited by printz on 11-13-12 at 22:54

Old Post 11-13-12 22:46 #
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Graf Zahl
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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I think that complaining about the start screen is more or less pointless.

If someone likes it, fine. Let them be happy.
If you don't like it, install Classic Shell or one of the several other start menu replacements.

I even use Classic Shell on Win 7 because the Win7 start menu isn't the greatest invention either.

Old Post 11-13-12 23:12 #
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Bucket
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It's not? It makes a hell of a lot more sense than five levels of folders popping up across my screen. The search field is nice, too.

Old Post 11-13-12 23:27 #
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Quast
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Maes said:
Maybe they don't want another Windows XP-like situation to develop, with a 10 year old-OS still clinging to a solid 30% of the market.

I love this.

"Yeah we really aren't interested in making a product that people enjoy because it works well and is stable and has lots of developer support."

Jesus christ...

I used xp for over 10 years and I can say I never really had any issues with it. Bought a laptop about a year ago and it was my first foray into 7 and while having to give myself permission to delete or move files is ridiculous and annoying it is otherwise more of the same that I got from xp.

Old Post 11-14-12 00:37 #
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gggmork
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If any of you have an amazon seller account, do this to see fascist anti-free market insider monopoly granting and selective enforcement, all under the new laws we're all subject to called "terms of service":

* log into your amazon seller account.

* search amazon for "windows 7". click it and click "sell on amazon".

You will likely see this message:
"IMPORTANT MESSAGE: **Please note: The item for which you have attempted to create a listing is a restricted item."

Oops, its ILLEGAL (essentially, according to the amazon authorities) for YOU to sell that item. And PLENTY of other items. Basically lots and lots of newer items on amazon are ILLEGAL for YOU to sell, but LEGAL for certain monopoly-granted insiders to sell. And the same goes on at ebay. The cartel of ecommerce has recently absolutely clamped down on everyone. They attracted everyone to their systems making it seem free but it was all a trick to later control everyone. They direct almost all traffic to the big players. Where else can you sell an item? Essentially nowhere. Maybe your own website but I'm sure google prevents that too. Amazon still "allows" you to sell older windows versions (for now at least).. example: their royal highnesses "allow" us peons to sell visual studio 2003, but not the newer versions like 2008/2010/etc. You can probably sell windows 2000/xp/etc, but not 7/8/etc. Lots of electronics have similar restrictions.
So if anyone buys windows 8, I hope you know YOU CAN'T SELL IT. If you don't like the free market then buy it!

Old Post 11-14-12 01:56 #
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GhostlyDeath
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WinRT is a joke, you cannot even create a TCP socket for it. WinRT is basically for everyone to start switching to C# and use that instead (you can create TCP sockets in C#). I looked at the list of functions WinRT supports and it is highly pathetic.


gggmork said:
Stuff.


You cannot buy Windows, you can only get a license for it. I guess Microsoft no longer allows license transference so for a new system you need to buy a completely new one.

Old Post 11-14-12 05:13 #
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Jodwin
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GhostlyDeath said:
WinRT is a joke, you cannot even create a TCP socket for it. WinRT is basically for everyone to start switching to C# and use that instead (you can create TCP sockets in C#). I looked at the list of functions WinRT supports and it is highly pathetic.

Yeah, WinRT is extremely limited and actually pretty terrible to program with (speaking from personal experience :P). On the other hand, it's an intentionally walled garden that's supposed to provide the end users with as safe experiences as possible. In other words, they are trying to weed off ways to make bad software so that what's available on the marketplace for idiots to buy will be as good as possible.

The good thing about WinRT is that you don't have to use it, unless you want to code for Metro in particular. Also, it's not pushing for C#, since you can also use C++, VB.NET and fucking Javascript with HTML5. Now that has to be the worst idea ever.

Old Post 11-14-12 05:31 #
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printz
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Does Microsoft have any big marketshare on handheld devices? Everywhere I just see Android and to a lesser extend iOS.

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Old Post 11-14-12 06:10 #
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scorpion
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printz said:
The only thing that worries me about Windows 8 is that it wishes that I use my Microsoft account instead of a simple username to log-in (currently I'm NOT using the MS account to log in). I'm pretty sure that at a given moment Microsoft will force me to use the MS account for logging in, so I can be at their mercy, and risk being banned and locked out of my system if I do something wrong. What do you think about this?
You can use it fine without the account, but you need the account to make use of the Store, so apps (the software that doesn't run on the desktop) can't be downloaded without one, as far as I know.

Also, Java has a download for Windows 8 - only works for the desktop, so Internet Explorer (yes, the one in the 'start realm') doesn't show Java applications. It doesn't fare well with Flash either - only websites listed by Microsoft as OK will work.

You can still use the quicklaunch bar in the same way, as well as making your own toolbars (which I've been doing since Win98). I don't miss the Start menu much, but it does take some getting used to.

Old Post 11-14-12 09:53 #
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Fisk
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Honestly the biggest problem I have and will continue to have with Win8 is the fact that the desktop UI seems to be relegated to the same position MS-DOS was in when Win3.x was new. "Hey look at this, it runs all your DOS programs super-efficiently from within this nice GUI!" Nowadays, DOS compatibility (at least on 32-bit Win7) is a mere tacked-on afterthought, barely capable of running anything meaningful from the era of DOS.

In Windows 8, sure, you can say "but it runs all the current Windows 7 apps just fine on the desktop!", but the desktop is ultimately and clearly a secondary feature in Windows 8, as if implicitly superseded by the Metro UI. Where will the desktop interface be in Windows 9? 10? 11?

Also:


Jodwin said:
...you can also use C++...has to be the worst idea ever.


I agree

Seriously, where the fuck is the love for ANSI C on the Microsoft front

What the fuck is so bad about C99 that C++ fixes

Old Post 11-14-12 11:39 #
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Maes
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Quast said:
"Yeah we really aren't interested in making a product that people enjoy because it works well and is stable and has lots of developer support."


Well, certainly, somewhere, SOME Microsoft programmer HAS to feel proud for having contributed to such a successful product. But only inside.

Because pride alone doesn't help paying the bills, and once a product -even an excellent one- has reached nearly 90% market penetration (like XP did, in its heyday), it simply stops making new money. That's why they need a new product every now and then, and convince people that they DO need it (even if in fact they don't, but that's they beauty of marketing).

Old Post 11-14-12 11:50 #
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Jodwin
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Maes said:
Because pride alone doesn't help paying the bills, and once a product -even an excellent one- has reached nearly 90% market penetration (like XP did, in its heyday), it simply stops making new money. That's why they need a new product every now and then, and convince people that they DO need it (even if in fact they don't, but that's they beauty of marketing).

Or, alternatively, we could move on to subscription-based OSs. That would wonderful, right..? Pay MS $15 a month for the privilege of using a decade old piece of software. ;)

Old Post 11-14-12 13:16 #
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hex11
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I haven't bought OS since Amiga days. Never gave M$ a dime, although they surely made some cash on the one single pre-installed new machine I bought since then (even though fdisk+format was the first thing I did after buying the machine). I'm sure they'll survive fine, seing how entrenched they are, so it's hard to really feel sad for them, especially given their history of bad business practices.

Old Post 11-14-12 14:11 #
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Jimi
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GhostlyDeath said:
You cannot buy Windows, you can only get a license for it. I guess Microsoft no longer allows license transference so for a new system you need to buy a completely new one.

What, so if I get a new computer, I also need to buy another copy of Windows if I want to use Windows in it? Shouldn't I be able to just deactivate it from the old computer or something?

Old Post 11-14-12 15:10 #
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MajorRawne
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Don't even get me started on this stuff. Microsoft screwed Nokia utterly over the whole WP7/8 thing. (EDIT: Stay with me on this!)

Nokia were starting to come back with good deals and better phones, then as soon as we start actually selling Lumia 710s and 800s, it's announced that not only will these phones be unable to update to Windows 8 for Mobile, their successors will be mainly dual core and higher spec. There were no dates given for any of this, mind. It's a given that 2013's Windows phones will all be better in many ways. It's quite another to push that in people's faces months beforehand.

Then it's announced that "by the way, you can get a half-arsed version of Windows 8 which is going to be called either Windows 7.5 or 7.8 (depending on who you ask), but don't ask us WHEN!" It's been 3 months since I heard about this half-update and there are few details and NO release date, except it will come when WP8 is already established.

Somewhat off the original topic, so please accept my apologies for that, but it's kind of the same thing. Microsoft may have sealed Nokia's fate - in the UK at least, where we simply aren't getting any Nokia sales - so yes, I agree, Microsoft will screw anyone over and leave anyone behind.

They have out-Appled Apple.

Old Post 11-14-12 16:05 #
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Maes
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Jimi said:

What, so if I get a new computer, I also need to buy another copy of Windows if I want to use Windows in it? Shouldn't I be able to just deactivate it from the old computer or something?



De jure, you need a separate license for every separate computer (or user, as the case may be), and that has held true since, well, forever. It's nothing new. It just wasn't much of a consideration for home users in times where even one computer per household was a luxury item, it was more of a clause regulating businesses using commercial software.

In practice, if you buy any version of Windows and you have N PCs, Microsoft says that you should buy N copies (aka licenses) of Windows. Otherwise, if you are audited and find out that you simply used the same installation key/CD for all of them, your ass will be brought to court. Again, unlikely for a home user, but a very real possibility for businesses.

If you have more than one PC and you want to use an existing program in another PC, then most licenses say that you must first uninstall it from the old PC before installing it on another. You can't keep it installed on both PCs at all times. Again, this sounds absurd for a home user, but it's standard practice for businesses.

Unless Microsoft means that once you installed your copy somewhere, it just might as well self-destruct, and should not be reinstalled even if the old PC dies in a nuclear explosion. TBQH they tried to pull this shit ever since the early days of XP (the infamous limited activations clause, re-activation upon major PC changes etc.) but they always got nullified because of cracks, corporate OEM licenses etc.


MajorRawne said:
They have out-Appled Apple.


Tru dat. It's like they had a brainstorming session about "What makes apple so great and how can we copy them?"

Suit #1: "Great design!"
Suit #2: "Superior quality!"
Suit #3: "Captivating marketing!"
Suit #4: "User-friendly interface!"
Suit #5: "They just work!"
Suit #6: "They have iTunes!"
Suit #7: "Stricter quality control for their software!"
Suit #8: "They have an APP STORE where they control the user's computer so they are never screwed by their users!""
Mega Suit: "I kinda liked that last one".

Last edited by Maes on 11-14-12 at 16:29

Old Post 11-14-12 16:23 #
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Snakes
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Quast said:

I love this.

"Yeah we really aren't interested in making a product that people enjoy because it works well and is stable and has lots of developer support."

Jesus christ...

I used xp for over 10 years and I can say I never really had any issues with it. Bought a laptop about a year ago and it was my first foray into 7 and while having to give myself permission to delete or move files is ridiculous and annoying it is otherwise more of the same that I got from xp.


I think there's an unwritten rule that every other Microsoft OS that they release must suck.

Old Post 11-14-12 17:07 #
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printz
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Snakes said:

I think there's an unwritten rule that every other Microsoft OS that they release must suck.

So the next Windows will come soon and will seem like a PR excuse, with the Metro interface either relegated or better combined with the more useful desktop interface? Either that, or faster way to switch between applications, or more powerful Metro apps. Currently, they're too weak.

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Last edited by printz on 11-14-12 at 17:41

Old Post 11-14-12 17:34 #
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Jimi
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Hmh.. I think home users should be allowed to install the same program/os with the same license on multiple computers.. and what about reinstalling it on the same computer, how's that work, how's it going to know if it's the same or different?

Pff.. yea, that Windows 7 box says "For use on one computer or device". That's like complete crap. If I buy a new computer, I'm going to install it there too, but maybe I install XP into the old one then.

Of course I understand that if I deactivate it from one computer to be able to activate it on another.. I could just de/activate it back and forth with them, just as long as I don't use them at the same time. Or is that how it's going to work?

Old Post 11-14-12 18:32 #
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hex11
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Re-installing the OS is made especially difficult these days since most machines don't even ship with the Windows install media. Instead they come with a "recovery disc", or even just a backup partition. So then when your HD craps out and you buy a new one, you're SOL. I guess at that point you're supposed to contact M$ and ask them for install media, but what if they don't even support that version of WIndows anymore? Sounds to me like all this is done on purpose... Think about it: CD's are incredibly cheap to manufacture, and it wouldn't cost them anything significant to give you the install media with your new machine (heck it wouldn't even cost them a penny in the case of those machines that ship with that stupid "recovery disc").

Old Post 11-14-12 20:33 #
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Bucket
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As soon as you buy a new computer, you should find and download an OEM disc image of the OS it's running. Then collect all the drivers from the manufacturer's website. Finally, make a clean install from the OEM disc, using the product key on the computer.

Old Post 11-14-12 20:45 #
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Maes
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And to think that I got genuine (holograms and all) Windows 98 and Windows 2000 CD from thrift stores for like 0.50 Euros each, and have several valid (non-OEM) XP keys simply gathered from discarded PCs that have them written on stickers on their cases!

Old Post 11-14-12 21:36 #
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