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Maes
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myk said:
How about seriously looking for other solutions to crime that have nothing or little to do with guns?


OK, for the ONE time the VIOLENT CRIMINAL comes for you, what do you do? Give him a sociological lecture? Or do you AIM and SHOOT, so that YOU WIN and HE LOSES? The latter sounds much cooler and satisfactory ;-)

Old Post 12-16-12 14:57 #
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myk
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Maes said:
a sociological lecture
Oh, so that's how you say "your shoes and wallet" in Greek?

Old Post 12-16-12 15:15 #
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DoomUK
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All very well. But what happens when your wallet isn't enough, and you've happened upon a mugger who really doesn't like you?

Old Post 12-16-12 15:48 #
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Gez
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And what if the mugger is wearing a kevlar vest, so that your gun is useless? Worse, what if the mugger is in fact a whole gang of 200+ muggers, and they all have assault rifles, and are surrounding you?

No, the solution isn't guns. The solution is to live in a secret underground bunker, miles below the Atacama Desert, in perfect autarky (using a roboticised greenhouse powered by a small private fusion reactor to provide food and recycle wastes) so that you never have to meet another human being again and that nobody knows where you live.

Better yet, a secret underground base in Venus, so you can be pretty sure nobody is ever going to come on the same planet and you're protected even from nukes.

Constantly expecting the worst from our fellow humans is the best way to live a long and fulfilling life, I tell you.

Old Post 12-16-12 15:59 #
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myk
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DoomUK said:
But what happens when your wallet isn't enough,
Don't worry, my shoes always make up for it!

Old Post 12-16-12 16:04 #
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Lizardcommando
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Damn, you must have some really nice shoes. Heh.

Old Post 12-16-12 17:52 #
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DoomUK
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Gez said:
Constantly expecting the worst from our fellow humans is the best way to live a long and fulfilling life, I tell you.

Maybe it's just me, but if someone is prepared to point a gun or a knife at me and demand my wallet/shoes/coat/fellatio then it's not inconceivable that they might want to kill me afterwards, regardless of my compliance.

As a side note, expecting the worst out of people is actually a helpful attitude if not a healthy one. This way, you avoid disappointment and you're pleasantly surprised when people are civil towards you. Face it, many people in the Western world are discourteous, even if they're not muggers or murderers or psychos.

Old Post 12-16-12 18:08 #
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Gez
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DoomUK said:
As a side note, expecting the worst out of people is actually a helpful attitude if not a healthy one. This way, you avoid disappointment and you're pleasantly surprised when people are civil towards you. Face it, many people in the Western world are discourteous, even if they're not muggers or murderers or psychos.


Maybe they're discourteous because they suspect you of being a psycho murderous mugger.

Old Post 12-16-12 19:18 #
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Nomad
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How about we institute a proper universal healthcare system in the US so the crazy people get the help they need before they start shooting everyone? C:

Old Post 12-16-12 19:33 #
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Maes
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myk said:
Oh, so that's how you say "your shoes and wallet" in Greek?


Only if you're the robber and you wish to give your VICTIM a brief sociological lecture. "Your shoes and wallet" can, in fact, stand in, for:


My dear fellow citizen and soon a victim of my unlawful appropriation of your property, before I carry on with my dubiously legal endeavour -which, however, I'd rather it wouldn't elicit a violent response from your part, it would only make things worse just for you-, I'd like you to consider the econominal, social, political and, ultimately, socio-historical conditions that led to me and you being where we are, right here and now. I wish for you to understand that my actions are dictated not by something personal against you, but by a mere result of the aforementioned socio-economical circumstances. Were it not for them, we could be best buddies or something. So, blame not me, but the politicians, bankers, generals, policement and, ultimately, the people who voted for them and this state of thing. OK, and now gimme your fucking shoes and wallet before I show you the worst aspects of the aforementioned socio-economical problems.


I bet this is bread for your teeth :-p

Old Post 12-16-12 23:20 #
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myk
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Actually, Maes, by and large, most petty thieves do indeed come from there, even many that aren't aware of their own situation. In my encounters with "low life" people in possibly risky situations, an awareness of that, and that a street robbery is hardly the end of the world, have indeed given me calmer approaches or a sense of relative security.


DoomUK said:
As a side note, expecting the worst out of people is actually a helpful attitude if not a healthy one. This way, you avoid disappointment and you're pleasantly surprised when people are civil towards you.
You're confusing gullibility and goodwill. One's stance is a statement that creates and helps cement relations. Europe's current condition is large scale evidence that expecting the worst in people disrupts social trust and contracts. You see people afraid of not being paid back debt, distrusting borrowers and forcing them deeper into debt to ensure they will keep paying something, even to the point their means to pay back are brought down in the process.


Face it, many people in the Western world are discourteous, even if they're not muggers or murderers or psychos.
Deterministic opportunism is the road down to the lowest common denominator. Your statement is the basis for "apolitical" and individualistic reaction, that excuses faults because "the world is fucked up." If you're a responsible individual capable of living in a democracy, what you add is most important, not to act in accordance to what we expect others will do to us. The old proverb "do unto others as you would have them do to you" is talking about this. In any statement or action we say "me, me" before anything else, so to avoid short sighted action and dishonesty, it's important to be proactive, creative. That's real self empowerment and freedom. It's better not to try to hide out interests in supposed objective "facts" about others.

Old Post 12-17-12 05:03 #
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Mr. T
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DoomUK said:

By your own admission, a gun is the most effective way of stopping someone. Even if shooting people doesn't quite work like it does in the movies, bullets and shot have been refined over the centuries to be very effective at what they do.

There's also the intimidation factor of a gun which a taser or a can of mace might never supplant. I'm not going to guarantee the mere sight of a gun or the sound of it being cocked is going to scare away a hardened criminal or some psycho junkie who's bent on doing you harm, but you have a non-lethal "weapon" on your side just by pointing a gun at someone.



No, no, no.

Shooting someone doesn't stop them. In fact, they will get a huge dose of adrenaline for a few moments, and have plenty of time to stab you back (I assume they are threatening you with a weapon?!)

Your second paragraph betrays your complete lack of experience with weapons. Trying to use your gun as a "non-lethal weapon" is hilarious way to get YOURSELF shot.

"Dirty Harry"-types like you are the reason I think guns should be harder, not easier, for civilians to purchase.

Anyway, even though I'm for gun control, I am of the opinion that anyone who resort to violence and robbing people just going about their business is fucking trash and deserves whatever street justice gets meted out to them.

Old Post 12-17-12 06:34 #
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Maes
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Mr. T said:
Shooting someone doesn't stop them. In fact, they will get a huge dose of adrenaline for a few moments, and have plenty of time to stab you back (I assume they are threatening you with a weapon?!)


But Mista T, L0L, that's why you don't just shoot ONCE and with a PUNY pistol, but instead you shoot multiple times with a 12 ga. shotgun at the limbs of your attacker, to sever tham and leave him unable to move or use weapons, while finishing him off with pumping his torso full of hot, mangly, magnum buckshot like t3h m4tr1x !!!11!!!


myk said:
Actually, Maes, by and large, most petty thieves do indeed come from there, even many that aren't aware of their own situation.


In Argentina you've had you own share of a shitty global situation, which manifested itself in a certain manner. But in other places, where there are large endemic Gypsy populations or turnover from neighboring countries, as well as "imported criminality", so the "ecosystem" of criminality tends to be different and follow different patterns.

As a guideline, Gypsies = "petty theft", metal hunting and grey marketing. Russians = prostitution, protection rackets, etc. Albanians = violent, heavily armed crime etc. Non-gypsy Greek criminals tend to "rank high" in this scale, being either pimps, racketeers or heavily armed robbers, while petty theft is usually the "privilege" of Gypsies with Greek citizenship (though they recently got unwanted competition from "imported" gypsies and afro-asian immigrants, and clashes between those two groups competing for the same lebensraum are not unheard of).

Last edited by Maes on 12-17-12 at 09:07

Old Post 12-17-12 08:56 #
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DoomUK
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Mr. T said:
"Dirty Harry"-types

Yes, Mr T. Yes.

Your entire post is a monument to someone who's just read a TV Tropes page and, upon seeing a thread that's turned into one about guns and gun control, is eager to pick the low-hanging fruit of the discussion and inform us that getting shot doesn't work like it does in the movies and that pointing a gun at someone is useless unless you have the mettle to use it, despite neither of these points being argued to the contrary.

I refuse to believe it's due to a tenuous grasp of the English language, because your posts are intelligible and eloquent enough for the reader.


myk said:
Your statement is the basis for "apolitical" and individualistic reaction, that excuses faults because "the world is fucked up."

Actually, all things considered, I think the world is a better place than it has ever been, despite everything that we've been talking about and all the other issues that we haven't.

I was referring more to small, benign things like holding a door open for someone, or saying "Thank you" when someone holds a door open for you. They have little to do with international relations and economies, but they're important nevertheless. Before you rear up and remind me that living in a first world country permits me a sense of entitlement over trivial aspects of life, let it not be said that I'm assigning priority to them or suggesting that other nations don't have bigger things to worry about.

Old Post 12-17-12 09:07 #
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Mr. T
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DoomUK said:

Yes, Mr T. Yes.

Your entire post is a monument to someone who's just read a TV Tropes page and, upon seeing a thread that's turned into one about guns and gun control, is eager to pick the low-hanging fruit of the discussion and inform us that getting shot doesn't work like it does in the movies and that pointing a gun at someone is useless unless you have the mettle to use it, despite neither of these points being argued to the contrary.

I refuse to believe it's due to a tenuous grasp of the English language, because your posts are intelligible and eloquent enough for the reader.



I was actually just directly responding to what you wrote. It's not my fault your arguments are shitty.

Old Post 12-17-12 09:27 #
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DoomUK
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Mr. T said:
It's not my fault your arguments are shitty.

It's certainly your responsibility to pay attention to what people are saying.

You should hook up with printz. The two of you could share tips, in light of his similarly woeful comprehension of my own and others' posts in other threads on Doomworld.

Old Post 12-17-12 09:36 #
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Csonicgo


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DoomUK said:

It's certainly your responsibility to pay attention to what people are saying.




What does this even mean? It's his responsibility to understanding your obviously unthoughtful post? He gave a thorough dismantling of your argument but you respond with "water is wet " or some other obvious statement.

He is paying attention. So is everyone else. If you admit your argument was that easy to rip apart,then I guess you admitted your argument sucked.

It's not like your other posts of "always expect the worst " do not shed light on your bogus thought process in the first place. I'm amazed no one responded to that nonsense yet.

Last edited by Csonicgo on 12-17-12 at 11:32

Old Post 12-17-12 11:26 #
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DoomUK
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Csonicgo said:
What does this even mean? It's his responsibility to understanding your obviously unthoughtful post? He gave a thorough dismantling of your argument but you respond with "water is wet " or some other obvious statement.

He is paying attention. So is everyone else. If you admit your argument was that easy to rip apart,then I guess you admitted your argument sucked.

It's not like your other posts of "always expect the worst " do not shed light on your bogus thought process in the first place. I'm amazed no one responded to that nonsense yet.


ITT: circle jerk.

Really, where are you even going with this, beyond the "He's right and you're wrong so leave him alone!" sentiment? Mr T at least had the courtesy of adding a little more substance, but you call me out for talking bullshit without making any attempt to explain yourself. Nevermind what other people think; I want to hear what YOU think. Your posts are obviously worth reading, otherwise I'd be scrolling to the right.

Old Post 12-17-12 11:56 #
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Gez
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DoomUK said:
I was referring more to small, benign things like holding a door open for someone

Are you going to hang back and hold the door open to a potential mugger-slash-murderer, or are you going to hurry back home as fast as possible? Gun culture is one of paranoia. You can't at the same time behave courteously like a gentleman, and be ready to kill everyone standing in your way, no matter what James Mattis might say. It's just not possible in a normal citizen's day to day life. Either you're a paranoid freak afraid of everyone, which will severely limit the amount of civility you are able to exhibit; or you behave like a normal person and don't go out thinking you'll need to kill a dozen people in self-defense today.

Old Post 12-17-12 12:16 #
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DoomUK
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Gez said:
Either you're a paranoid freak afraid of everyone, which will severely limit the amount of civility you are able to exhibit; or you behave like a normal person and don't go out thinking you'll need to kill a dozen people in self-defense today.

Why must it be that black-and-white? Caution isn't synonymous with paranoia; it's possible to be civil and aware of a potential threat simultaneously. Taking care not to lop one of your own fingers off when you're chopping vegetables doesn't imply that you have a phobia of knives, does it?

That's not to say you can never be caught off-guard, which is likely how a lot of muggings and murders and other crimes happen in the first place, regardless of people's "street smarts". You can please yourself, but I'd still prefer to exercise some quiet wariness than be initially over-trusting of people, even if I'm not invulnerable.

Last edited by DoomUK on 12-17-12 at 12:36

Old Post 12-17-12 12:31 #
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Maes
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Gez said:
Either you're a paranoid freak afraid of everyone, which will severely limit the amount of civility you are able to exhibit; or you behave like a normal person and don't go out thinking you'll need to kill a dozen people in self-defense today.


Or you're a cop/bodyguard ;-) Those have to constantly walk on the fine line between the two. Obviously, I'm not referring to SWAT or riot control duty here. And some manage it better than others.

Also, you simply re-discovered one of the reasons why so many cultures try controlling the "warrior" elements in them by having a sort of "warrior's conduct code", "warrior's honour code" etc. and insisting that a real warrior should be as broadly educated, sensible, generous, ascetic, mentally balanced and disciplined as possible.

Old Post 12-17-12 12:33 #
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DoomUK
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Maes said:
Also, you simply re-discovered one of the reasons why so many cultures try controlling the "warrior" elements in them by having a sort of "warrior's conduct code", "warrior's honour code" etc. and insisting that a real warrior should be as broadly educated, sensible, generous, ascetic, mentally balanced and disciplined as possible.

Indeed, we should restore the outmoded concept of chivalry. Though I'm not really down with the nationalism and religious fanaticism that it historically encompassed. Or disembowelling yourself to restore honour over some minor infraction, if the Bushido variation is what you're going for.

Old Post 12-17-12 12:51 #
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printz
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Heh, gotta love gez's posts on this topic, making fun of you (plural) to no end.

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Old Post 12-17-12 13:24 #
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Maes
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DoomUK said:
Indeed, we should restore the outmoded concept of chivalry.


Teaching the basic discipline & respect values every (proper) martial arts course teaches on day 1, as well as values such as sportmanship, respect for the opponent, self-knowledge, self-confidence and some basic martial arts as part of compulsory primary education wouldn't be a bad idea. Otherwise, you're just breeding a society of potential loose cannons, misfits and misguided (but not necessarily wicked) individuals, without any values to adhere to, and without any instrument to detect them before it's too late, either. Sorry, a post-arrest or post-suicide psy-prof half-job don't count. Nor does a single instance of a "civic education" class course.

No wonder that the first, crucial periods of any soldier's or police cadet's training are all about (sometimes forcibly) getting them back in line with those values, weeding out the most psychologically unstable and labile in the process (that's one of the reasons "ritual hazing" is usually tolerated or even encouraged by superiors in those environments, within limits). However, while someone might be labelled "unfit for service" on the grounds of seemingly minor weaknesses, it's much, much harder to put the "unfit for society" label on someone unless he screws up big time.

In the former case, you're simply deemed unfit to be trusted with a weapon at some point in your service, and most of the time you can simply pack your bags and look for another career. In the latter case however...what should they do with you?

Last edited by Maes on 12-17-12 at 18:18

Old Post 12-17-12 18:13 #
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MTrop
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Maes said:
But Mista T, L0L...


I am not him. Do not lump me in with him.


Even though, like him, I still believe in gun control.

Ugh, gonna have to ask Bloodshedder for a name change...

EDIT: Wow. That was fast. Thanks, Bloodshedder!

Last edited by MTrop on 12-17-12 at 19:18

Old Post 12-17-12 19:02 #
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printz
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MTrop said:


I am not him. Do not lump me in with him.

Same phonetics.

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Old Post 12-17-12 19:23 #
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Maes
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MTrop said:
I am not him. Do not lump me in with him.


Yeah, sorree. I shoudda be sayin' "Mistah T", nigga.

Old Post 12-17-12 20:27 #
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