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Csonicgo


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http://www.salon.com/2013/01/07/ant...mbrace_measles/

I swear, they get dumber and dumber.

Some of the review of this book:


This book is based on the dangerous, ill-informed and just plain wrong idea that getting measles is somehow more beneficial than getting the measles vaccine. If you hate children so much that you want them to suffer from potentially fatal disease, by all means enjoy this book.




can only presume that the author was born after the successful vaccination programme made people complacent about the dangers of measles. I was not so lucky. In the epidemic of my childhood I was nearly blinded, and still have scars on my eyeballs. I was the lucky member of the family; my sister died from complications. Measles kills children. This book is irresponsible and misleading at best. At worst it could lead to the death of a child.


But I'm not done.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/rep...wont_vaccinate/


Misconceptions about the vaccine and parental squeamishness about inoculating their kids against a sexually transmitted virus make HPV vaccination a touchy subject, but cancer experts insist that its a hurdle we need to overcome. And soon.

Just as it is hard for some patients to talk about anal disease or their kids having sex, its equally hard for some providers to talk about it, Dr. Julian Sanchez, a colorectal-cancer surgeon at City of Hope, told Time magazine. I talk about it every day, and sometimes it is still difficult for me to approach some patients who I know have a degree of opposition to this type of conversation.


Be it pseudo-mystic bullshit, cooties, or disproven studies, Parents have no shortage of excuses of vaccinating their kids.



I've read the comments below this article and Im dismayed that so few Americans are taking the steps necessary to protect themselves and their neighbors.

Sowing false doubt that vaccines don't keep people safe has deadly consequences!

If yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater isn't allowed, how is spreading bullshit about deadly, communicable diseases legal?


Good point. Someone should ask Alex Jones.

Old Post 01-10-13 09:42 #
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Maes
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I never understood why some people get so butthurt over other people not vaccinating theirselves or their children, as long as they are protected.

E.g. if someone wants to ride a bike without a helmet, it's his prerogative, as he can harm none outside of himself.

Same with vaccination: let's say there's a disease X out there. If you get the AntiX vaccine, you don't get infected. If you don't, you get.

Now, take two people Alice and Bob. Alice has AntiX, Bob does not.

Can Bob infect Alice, even if he has X? No, he can't, because she's vaccinated. That's the whole point.
Will vaccinating Bob make Alice's life any better? No, it won't.
WIll vaccinating Bob protect alice from contracting X? No, if Alice isn't already vaccinated herself. If she wasn't, then the roles would be kinda reversed, dontchathink??!

Old Post 01-10-13 10:27 #
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Csonicgo


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Maes said:
I never understood why some people get so butthurt over other people not vaccinating theirselves or their children, as long as they are protected.

E.g. if someone wants to ride a bike without a helmet, it's his prerogative, as he can harm none outside of himself.

Same with vaccination: let's say there's a disease X out there. If you get the AntiX vaccine, you don't get infected. If you don't, you get.

Now, take two people Alice and Bob. Alice has AntiX, Bob does not.

Can Bob infect Alice, even if he has X? No, he can't, because she's vaccinated. That's the whole point.
Will vaccinating Bob make Alice's life any better? No, it won't.
WIll vaccinating Bob protect alice from contracting X? No, if Alice isn't already vaccinated herself. If she wasn't, then the roles would be kinda reversed, dontchathink??!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

Old Post 01-10-13 10:39 #
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DoomUK
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Maes said:
I never understood why some people get so butthurt over other people not vaccinating theirselves or their children

Read more about how children's lives - and by extension, the propagation of the human race - aren't important in The World According to Maes, available at all good book stores.

Old Post 01-10-13 11:33 #
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darknation
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I'm with Maes. Fuck your children.

Old Post 01-10-13 11:59 #
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pritch
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I do think the world has propogated quite enough.

But no reason for anyone who's still here to suffer.

Old Post 01-10-13 12:02 #
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Gez
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Stephanie Messenger said:
...history shows that in industrialized countries, these diseases are quite benign and, according to natural health sources, beneficial to the body


The Spanish Flu of 1918 killed five times more people than the Great War did. "Quite benign and beneficial" indeed!

Looking further into history, we might learn exactly why one of the Four Riders of the Apocalypse is pestilence, or plague. The Black Death claimed one third of the European population at the time. But I guess they didn't count as industrialized countries yet since it was the Middle Age.

Which leads to question why diseases would be "quite benign" in industrialized countries nowadays and weren't before and aren't elsewhere? The explanation, my dear Stephanie, is that industrialized countries are practicing vaccination against the most dangerous diseases, in the hope of only leaving the "quite benign" ones around. (It's mostly, but not entirely successful; no thanks to people like you.)

Old Post 01-10-13 12:27 #
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Doom Marine
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Csonicgo won the debate by bringing up herd immunity.


Maes said:
I never understood why some people get so butthurt over other people not vaccinating theirselves or their children, as long as they are protected.

E.g. if someone wants to ride a bike without a helmet, it's his prerogative, as he can harm none outside of himself.

Same with vaccination: let's say there's a disease X out there. If you get the AntiX vaccine, you don't get infected. If you don't, you get.

Now, take two people Alice and Bob. Alice has AntiX, Bob does not.

Can Bob infect Alice, even if he has X? No, he can't, because she's vaccinated. That's the whole point.
Will vaccinating Bob make Alice's life any better? No, it won't.
WIll vaccinating Bob protect alice from contracting X? No, if Alice isn't already vaccinated herself. If she wasn't, then the roles would be kinda reversed, dontchathink??!


Your bike helmet analogy is cute, but it fails to address basic epidemiological understanding of why it's important that Bob should stop being a selfish little bitch, man the fuck up, and roll up his sleeves.

In order to effectively eradicate any communicable disease that can be prevented via vaccination, everyone in the populace has to participate.

If enough people choose not to participate, then they become a reservoir for the disease to communicate, incubate, and evolve, possibly overcoming the vaccination's efficacy.

Case study: Polio, a disease with only human reservoir, is spread mainly by fecal-oral contamination. It meets the requirements of a communicable disease that can be eradicated via vaccination. Why haven't polio gone the way of smallpox yet?

One of the problems was, when health workers from first-world countries (read: whites) were introducing the polio vaccine in Africa, some genius was spreading around the rumors that these white folks were secretly sterilizing blacks. Given that whites didn't historically have the best treatment of black Africans in mind, this is perfectly logical... so naturally, enough people didn't play, so we didn't win.

The same sentiment of vaccination resistance is here in the US, that a side-effect of vaccination is autism and other hocus-pocuses, none of which have basis in any medical scientific understanding.

Last edited by Doom Marine on 01-10-13 at 12:55

Old Post 01-10-13 12:46 #
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Gez
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Talibans have been murdering volunteers from NGO who were vaccinating people against polio in Pakistan.

Old Post 01-10-13 13:06 #
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Csonicgo


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Gez said:
Talibans have been murdering volunteers from NGO who were vaccinating people against polio in Pakistan.


They do realize that contact immunity will remove any "damage" Taliban might inflict, right? That's the great thing about the Polio vaccine/inoculation - it lives for 3 days to a week, and all it takes is a sneeze, kiss, or using the same toilet , et voila, thine ass is immunized. Just like the original polio spread, so can the vaccine.

Taleban are just pissed that their durka durka could be crushed by the west by simply showing the "miracle" of modern medicine. Those evil Western devils and their hygiene.

Old Post 01-10-13 13:17 #
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darknation
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a few things -

OMG A DISEASE AUTO-VACCINATE / ANTIBIOTICS! is not a good idea. see cdiff (the never-ending shits) and MRSA (next mutation will eat your face) for details.

OMG BIG PHARMA IS OUR BEST^FRIEND! no.

OMG FUCK YOUR CHILDREN. the little bastards are swilling cesspits of every disease known to man. the strong survive and pass their awesome genes on to the next generation. the weak should die and their pissy genes should die with them. take darwin out of the equation and the human race becomes weaker, hence your herd immunity arguments fail it.

the current path of vaccination / antibiotics means that diseases get stronger and humans become more pussy.

Old Post 01-10-13 13:38 #
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Maes
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Csonicgo said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity


So, if Alice doesn't vaccinate, she does not provide "herd immunity" to Bob, who's also not vaccinated? So who's to blame here? Alice for failing to provide herd immunity to an indifferent/unwilling Bob, or Bob for not wanting/knowing to safeguard his own ass in the first place?

Sounds like a perverted catch-22... damned if you DON'T, damned if THEY DON'T? What sort of logic is that?

@DoomMarine et al.: If you need to go through long-winded and roundabout ways to convince me (or yourselves?) that somehow, doing something which realistically can only affect the individual doing it is wrong, well, that's trying too hard.

I believe that as long as the repercussions of someone actions are limited to himself, he can do whatever he pleases. Don't wanna vaccinate? Fine. For only your ass will get sick, not mine, so what do I care?


Gez said:
Talibans have been murdering volunteers from NGO who were vaccinating people against polio in Pakistan.


They do so primarily because they see them as an outside force/agent influencing "their" people. And since providing charity/caretaking are directly associated with influencing/calling the shots, the Taliban see this as a direct challenge to their rule. No wonder that volunteer/missionary work is regarded as a highly competitive area, with the "competitors" being other organization/religions, eager to appear "better" than yours.

Last edited by Maes on 01-10-13 at 13:54

Old Post 01-10-13 13:47 #
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Membrain
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Here's a simple, non-"roundabout" explanation as to why your analogy fails. Diseases like the measles are caused by a virus. Viruses mutate. If left unchecked, a superior, vaccine-resistant strain of the virus can mutate. Your boy Bob becomes a breeding ground for viruses when he doesn't vaccinate, making it more likely that a resistant strain will infect Alice.

So, unless you don't believe in evolution, your analogy really doesn't hold up. It's more like Alice is wearing her helmet, and Bob is riding his bike while strapped to an atomic bomb. If Bob only wrecks his bike, he's the only one who gets hurt, sure. But if he wrecks his bike -and- sets off the bomb... well, you get the idea.

Anti-vax is not just stupid and harmful to that individual. It's dangerous and irresponsible to society as a whole.

Old Post 01-10-13 14:15 #
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exp(x)


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Maes said:
Don't wanna vaccinate? Fine. For only your ass will get sick, not mine, so what do I care?

Vaccines are not 100% effective; your argument fails.

Old Post 01-10-13 14:20 #
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Doom Marine
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Maes said:


So, if Alice doesn't vaccinate, she does not provide "herd immunity" to Bob, who's also not vaccinated? So who's to blame here? Alice for failing to provide herd immunity to an indifferent/unwilling Bob, or Bob for not wanting/knowing to safeguard his own ass in the first place?

Sounds like a perverted catch-22... damned if you DON'T, damned if THEY DON'T? What sort of logic is that?

@DoomMarine et al.: If you need to go through long-winded and roundabout ways to convince me (or yourselves?) that somehow, doing something which realistically can only affect the individual doing it is wrong, well, that's trying too hard.

I believe that as long as the repercussions of someone actions are limited to himself, he can do whatever he pleases. Don't wanna vaccinate? Fine. For only your ass will get sick, not mine, so what do I care?

And no raindrop thinks he's to blame for the flood. How many of these "Bobs" will it take to realize what they're doing is wrong? Ten? Twenty? Ten-Thousand??

Already addressed in my last posting was the disease reservoir and evolution that allows a pathogen to overcome the vaccination itself. In a crowded room with an equal amount of Alices and Bobs, vaccination efficacy will eventually fail due Bobs acting as a reservoir to an emerging strain that will overcome the vaccine. It's a basic in health science, and something that gets dissected in pus-filled details when you're a Microbio researcher like me.

The problem is not a few apathetic assholes who will die of their own stupidity without repercussions to everyone else who are immunized... the problem is, as posted in OP, individuals who choose to avoid vaccination, and are stupid enough to write books on it, and promote others not to do it as well.

This is taken to another level when you realize that this is the tip of the iceberg, that there are organized religions that denounces vaccination, that there are groups talking shit about vaccination and autism... basically people who will die of their own stupidity and taking everyone else down with them.

Old Post 01-10-13 14:27 #
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GreyGhost
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Maes said:
E.g. if someone wants to ride a bike without a helmet, it's his prerogative, as he can harm none outside of himself.
I could agree with that if the rider chose to wear a painless destroyer instead of a helmet, or a "DO NOT REVIVE" bracelet. I don't want my tax dollars to be wasted providing lifelong care to brain-dead fools.


Now, take two people Alice and Bob. Alice has AntiX, Bob does not.
Alice survives the Avian Swine Flu pandemic, Bob dies a relatively quick but excruciatingly painful death.

Old Post 01-10-13 14:28 #
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Membrain
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Besides that, you also have people who -can't- take vaccines for one reason or another, or those who have been vaccinated and have, later on in life, had their immune systems suppressed. There's a number of ways a person who hasn't been vaccinated can be a danger to others. Also, keep in mind that the people who aren't being vaccinated aren't the undeniably stupid parents, but their children, who don't get to make their own decisions about it.

Ever had a prescription filled for an antibiotic? You'll notice that you're supposed to keep taking it until it's empty. That's not some plot to make sure people don't have "pill reserves." It's because, much like in the larger body of society, bacteria will evolve in our bodies if they aren't all killed off, upping the chance of so-called superbacteria appearing. (That is, drug resistant bacteria.) All these anti-vax people are doing is perpetuating a situation where an untreatable, deadly disease evolves. So yeah, this is serious and it affects all of us.

Old Post 01-10-13 14:39 #
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Maes
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GreyGhost said:
I don't want my tax dollars to be wasted providing lifelong care to brain-dead fools.


What tax dollars? AFAIK there's not mandatory health insurance in the USA (edit: Aussie? Dunno how's the situation there), so if the poor sod was uninsured, at most he'll create a road cleanup bill, not a life-long hospital bill. Even in countries with mandatory insurance, life-long vegetative states are usually not covered.


GreyGhost said:
Alice survives the Avian Swine Flu pandemic, Bob dies a relatively quick but excruciatingly painful death.


QED. Therefore, Alice did what she thought was best and survived. Bob did what he thought was best, "played", and lost. End of story. This does not affect Alice in any way.


Membrain said:
There's a number of ways a person who hasn't been vaccinated can be a danger to others.


...but NOT being vaccinated is NOT one of them, at least not versus VACCINATED people, that's why I don't get why the controversy. If the poor bastard doesn't want vaccination, let him have it his way: he's the only one that can suffer from it.



Q: "BUT MAES, L0L, What about non-vaccinated people that get to suffer because of THAT ONE unvaccinated person?"



A: And exactly what would make them less guilty or give them higher moral ground from The One "original" un-vaccinee in question? Aren't they all equally "guilty" of the same "crime"?

Last edited by Maes on 01-10-13 at 14:59

Old Post 01-10-13 14:53 #
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j4rio
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ITT: Maes filtering arguments. ;)


Maes said:

...but NOT being vaccinated is NOT one of them, at least not versus VACCINATED people, that's why I don't get why the controversy. If the poor bastard doesn't want vaccination, let him have it his way: he's the only one that can suffer from it.



Nope. Not being vaccinated may very much be one of them. Microbiology isn't as black and white as you apparently believe.

Old Post 01-10-13 15:13 #
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Membrain
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Here, let me try bullet points. They're nice and easy to reply to, so you won't need to go cherry picking.

- Firstly, you have a highly increased chance of drug-resistant diseases evolving. Note that this would directly affect everyone.

- Secondly, you have an increased chance of someone who has a suppressed immune system coming in contact with someone who has the disease. Keep in mind that these people can't be vaccinated, and are also more susceptible to diseases, and more likely to die from complications.

- Thirdly, the people who aren't being vaccinated aren't the same people who are promoting anti-vax. It's often just their children, who don't have a choice in the matter. In fact, lots of anti-vax proponents are people who were vaccinated, had some ambiguous "bad thing" happen, and then choose to not vaccinate their kids.

- Lastly, while herd immunity -is- the only way that some people are able to have decent, normal lives, it's also a big part in the eradication of diseases like smallpox. Since vaccines aren't always 100% effective, the best way to prevent a disease is to entirely kill it off.

So, yes, not being vaccinated makes you a danger to others directly, and a danger to everyone indirectly. The more people who succumb to this idiocy, the more likely we are to have a serious problem on our hands.

Edit: Trolololo

Last edited by Membrain on 01-10-13 at 15:31

Old Post 01-10-13 15:19 #
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darknation
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I'm reading your arguments and hearing a whiney, AIDS patient kinda voice. Is this intentional?

Old Post 01-10-13 15:28 #
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Maes
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Not convincing. Very weak and roundabout points, full of "ifs" and "maybes", and perhaps only relevant on a scale exceeding a single human's lifetime, which is why I don't "get" them at all.

So, the neighbor kids not vaccinating will result in them developing a super-strain that will kill everyone within a week, including my -just vaccinated- children? Good premise for a scarecrow-type of movie, but not realistic within a normal lifetime.

Vaccination is a PERSONAL protective measure, which directly affects only the bearer (on the short term, may I add, as some may be limited in scope and duration). Nothing more.

I guess vaccination resistance falls into the category of "victimless crimes": some of them might have long term, community-wide repercussions given the right (unfortunate) conditions, but it's nearly impossible to come up with sufficiently obvious, sensitizing arguments against their practice.

Old Post 01-10-13 15:39 #
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Membrain
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Ever had smallpox?

Also, drug-resistant strains aren't out of some science fiction movie. Here's some additional information. The longer it takes to kill these off, the more prevalent the drug-resistant strains will be. It's not rocket science to extrapolate that we could run out of treatments/preventative measures before that happens.

And plus, isn't it worth it to get rid of these diseases entirely? I mean, nobody actually wants to get sick, including anti-vax supporters, I would imagine.

Edit: Since I'm sure it's going to be mentioned, yes, this is about bacterial diseases, while the measles is caused by a virus. Viruses can and do evolve, hence why they release a new flue vaccine every year.

Last edited by Membrain on 01-10-13 at 15:53

Old Post 01-10-13 15:43 #
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Maes
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Still, berating someone's free choice of not being vaccinated is like trying to advocate against victimless crimes, or a sort of "ant vs grasshopper" scenario, if you wish. Only (a long) time can tell whether you were right, while the short and mid term tell that you are not. An uphill battle, if you ask me.

Old Post 01-10-13 15:58 #
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j4rio
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Mutagenicity depends on type of viruses, and by not being vaccinated you add to the mutagenicity pool with which you directly can affect vaccinated people if virus mutates. It's difficult to give precise info because all of this depends on type of disease (virus). Some may be prone to mutating, some can't mutate at all. Simply stating that there is no harm from not vaccinating to vaccinated people on global scale is however wrong whatsoever. On the other hand, it's not as much of a tragic global problem as Membrain describes and has obviously vastly more impact individuallistically rather than globally.

You won't get rid of diseases entirely by the way. There are around 6 diseases that children are vaccinated from after birth here, and due to that those diseases are basically non-existent. But if vaccinations were to be interrupted, those diseases would break loose again.

Last edited by j4rio on 01-10-13 at 22:04

Old Post 01-10-13 16:02 #
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Membrain
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I admit that I may have overstated the severity of the problem as it stands on a case-to-case basis. However, there always exists a chance that a global epidemic could break out, and with a wider pool of infected individuals, it becomes more and more likely. It goes without saying, regardless of the scale, that lowering the chances of a pandemic is a good thing, no?

Also, I'm going to have to disagree that diseases cannot be entirely gotten rid of. Smallpox is an example of a disease being eliminated to the point of vaccines being unnecessary. It's true that they (vaccines) can cause complications, which anti-vax is all too happy to point out. Without a need for them, you don't have complications to worry about. Not too complicated, really.

Unless, of course, you mean diseases as a whole, in which case you are right, since we can never be sure when a new disease might emerge. Plus, there's a number of diseases that are just too adaptable and/or varied to reliably eradicate.

Old Post 01-10-13 16:30 #
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Csonicgo


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Maes said:
Only (a long) time can tell whether you were right, while the short and mid term tell that you are not. An uphill battle, if you ask me.


290 years not enough?

Another object that infringes upon individual liberty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_sign


darknation said:
I'm reading your arguments and hearing a whiney, AIDS patient kinda voice. Is this intentional?


No, that's the sound of an iron lung.


Maes said:
Not convincing. Very weak and roundabout points, full of "ifs" and "maybes", and perhaps only relevant on a scale exceeding a single human's lifetime, which is why I don't "get" them at all.

So, the neighbor kids not vaccinating will result in them developing a super-strain that will kill everyone within a week, including my -just vaccinated- children? Good premise for a scarecrow-type of movie, but not realistic within a normal lifetime.

Vaccination is a PERSONAL protective measure, which directly affects only the bearer (on the short term, may I add, as some may be limited in scope and duration). Nothing more.

I guess vaccination resistance falls into the category of "victimless crimes": some of them might have long term, community-wide repercussions given the right (unfortunate) conditions, but it's nearly impossible to come up with sufficiently obvious, sensitizing arguments against their practice.



I wanted to respond to this but it's so out of line with modern medicine it's more deserving of mockery.

Last edited by Csonicgo on 01-10-13 at 16:48

Old Post 01-10-13 16:39 #
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Maes
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Membrain said:
However, there always exists a chance that a global epidemic could break out, and with a wider pool of infected individuals, it becomes more and more likely.


No, Membrain, you are the infected individuals.

And then Membrain was a zombie.

Old Post 01-10-13 16:47 #
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Csonicgo


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95% of all children in the US are vaccinated. of the 5% that aren't, only a fraction of those (usually less than 1%) have parents that are anti-vaxxers. This is extreme fringe.

Any material that attemps to refute the overwhelming success of vaccination usually resorts to cherry-picking and anti-science nonsense, or an anecdotal datum that can't even be verified.

Old Post 01-10-13 16:53 #
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Membrain
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Maes said:
No, Membrain, you are the infected individuals.

And then Membrain was a zombie.



Eh, I'd been expecting it now for years.

Old Post 01-10-13 17:03 #
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