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Doom Marine
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What is known about the system specs so far:

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7224/ps4specs.png

Unreal Engine 4 Elemental Demo (Continued)


Killzone 4's Gameplay Demo


Agni's Philosophy demonstrated on PS4

Last edited by Doom Marine on 02-22-13 at 12:26

Old Post 02-22-13 11:24 #
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Maes
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Whaaaaat?! They dare use AMD tech?! Doom Marine, have at them!

Old Post 02-22-13 11:26 #
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Doom Marine
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The system specs and demonstrations have exceeded my expectations. with 8GB of unified GDDR5 RAM, expect the bar to be raised.

Old Post 02-22-13 11:27 #
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Maes
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Just as a curiosity, how much would it cost to set up a PC with equivalent components (just the mobo and whatever goes directly on it, no case, drives, etc.) ? Keep in mind that at this point we're talking about yet another "PC in disguise" platform, without capabilities or super-custom accelerators that you'd not find on any ordinary gaming PC.

Old Post 02-22-13 11:48 #
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Graf Zahl
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Haha, most funny. So instead of developing special hardware for those gaming consoles they use thinly disguised versions of standard PC hardware.

Sounds a bit pointless to me.


I remember back in the day when the PS2 was released that its radical hardware design was hailed to be 'the future of how computers are built' but it seems nothing of that is left.

For those interested, 'the future of how computers are built' meant a design with rather limited graphics RAM, poorly thought out DMA schemes and insane offloading of memory management tasks to the programmer. As a developer I could tell outright that this kind of hardware design was doomed to fail as it was very developer-unfriendly but seeing gaming consoles now mimicking a standard issue PC is kind of ironic...


(Nice system, btw., if I was into modern graphics heavy games I'd be cheering.)

Old Post 02-22-13 12:07 #
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Doom Marine
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Maes said:
Just as a curiosity, how much would it cost to set up a PC with equivalent components (just the mobo and whatever goes directly on it, no case, drives, etc.) ? Keep in mind that at this point we're talking about yet another "PC in disguise" platform, without capabilities or super-custom accelerators that you'd not find on any ordinary gaming PC.
That's a rather hard question to answer. While we have the raw numbers out there (the PS4 has 1.84 TFLOPS), it's not so easy to determine a PC spec, after the OS overhead, after the DirectX API overhead, that performs similarly to its direct-to-the-metal programmed console counterpart.

Because of the lack of optimization and API overhead, the PC will have to be several times more powerful to be on the same level of performance as its optimized console counterpart.

Old Post 02-22-13 12:12 #
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Maes
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The only aspect that I see as not easily replicated by any currently available PC, is the 8 GB of (shared) GDDR5 RAM.

That is, assuming that it's a totally different beast than integrated graphics with shared RAM, which usually suck ass,

If "shared" means that code, data and graphics can share the same type of fast DDR5 memory AND that there are enough dedicated memory channels to deal with resource contention between cores/GPU/DMA channels AND the address space is unique (e.g. games can load textures simply by creating structures in the heap, not by having to "upload" them to the graphics card) the then it will be indeed a novel "flat" architecture, omitting the various macroscopic interconnection buses and the artificial separation between memory types and API access levels.

Old Post 02-22-13 12:17 #
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DoomUK
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Doom Marine said:
Because of the lack of optimization and API overhead, the PC will have to be several times more powerful to be on the same level of performance as its optimized console counterpart.

Hasn't that long been the case when determining the PC equivalent of a games console?

Anyway, PS4 looks pretty cool. No doubt I'll get to play on one when a friend of mine who buys every new console that's released buys one.

Old Post 02-22-13 12:18 #
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Graf Zahl
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Doom Marine said:
the PC will have to be several times more powerful to be on the same level of performance as its optimized console counterpart.



I think you are exaggerating. Sure, depending on how stuff is implemented you may lose something - but not 'several times'. Such a system would be severely flawed.

Old Post 02-22-13 12:44 #
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Jodwin
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Doom Marine said:
The system specs and demonstrations have exceeded my expectations. with 8GB of unified GDDR5 RAM, expect the bar to be raised.

I wonder how much of that ram is reserved for system use, such as streaming and the sharing feature...

Old Post 02-22-13 16:47 #
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Bucket
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Looks pretty good. However, I think I've learned my lesson on early adoption. I'll definitely pick it up after a revision or two. (Of course, this all depends on their plans for DRM.)

Old Post 02-22-13 17:22 #
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eargosedown
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Maes said:
Just as a curiosity, how much would it cost to set up a PC with equivalent components (just the mobo and whatever goes directly on it, no case, drives, etc.) ? Keep in mind that at this point we're talking about yet another "PC in disguise" platform, without capabilities or super-custom accelerators that you'd not find on any ordinary gaming PC.


I'd eyeball it at 800-1k, off the top of my head.

It has some impressive specs.

Old Post 02-22-13 17:29 #
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Quasar
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Word on the street is that PS4 is a glorified media terminal. You won't buy games or even download them. They'll execute on a server somewhere and you'll view a stream of the content. How responsiveness is supposed to be maintained at a level necessary to support games like Unreal in such a scheme is the question people should be asking.

It's also going to be fun to watch what happens when Sony decides this console has reached end-of-life, and shuts down everybody's accounts for it, permanently removing access to all the games they "rented."

Old Post 02-22-13 18:06 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Maes said:
Just as a curiosity, how much would it cost to set up a PC with equivalent components (just the mobo and whatever goes directly on it, no case, drives, etc.) ? Keep in mind that at this point we're talking about yet another "PC in disguise" platform, without capabilities or super-custom accelerators that you'd not find on any ordinary gaming PC.

PC Gamer claims $600, but, well, skim the article. They're definitely cutting some corners and bending some truths.

Old Post 02-22-13 18:14 #
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scalliano
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Doom Marine said:
Because of the lack of optimization and API overhead, the PC will have to be several times more powerful to be on the same level of performance as its optimized console counterpart.


No change there, then.

We'll get the usual barrage of shite launch games (PS systems always have shite launch games), a shite version of Wipeout (now that Studio Liverpool have closed) and we won't see anything really decent until about 6 months after release.

@Quasar: Words, indeed. Why would it need such high specs if it's basically going to be OnLive? No, my worry is the whole "locking down games to one system" bullshit that both Sony and MS have bounded about over the last year or so. Fuck that.

Old Post 02-22-13 18:49 #
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Graf Zahl
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scalliano said:

No, my worry is the whole "locking down games to one system" bullshit that both Sony and MS have bounded about over the last year or so. Fuck that.




... and then they scratch their heads when it fails.
This attitude has already ruined PC gaming mostly and on consoles it won't end differently if the games remain as expensive as they are on the old consoles.

There's only so much money people can spend on games and if there's no way to get some of it back by selling the games again - well - they will have to purchase less games to begin with.


@Quasar: My, my, we are a bit paranoid, aren't we?

Old Post 02-22-13 19:02 #
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Maes
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Quasar said:
Word on the street is that PS4 is a glorified media terminal. You won't buy games or even download them. They'll execute on a server somewhere and you'll view a stream of the content. How responsiveness is supposed to be maintained at a level necessary to support games like Unreal in such a scheme is the question people should be asking


In that case, why the fancy $600 hardware? They could just use a modified (and inexpensive) DTV/WebTV receiver, just like that OnLive scheme.

Old Post 02-22-13 19:25 #
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Quasar
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Graf Zahl said:

@Quasar: My, my, we are a bit paranoid, aren't we?


Only reporting what I've heard in turn, good sir. It may not be true, I have yet to find an actual reliable media source stating these things, to tell the truth.

Old Post 02-22-13 19:29 #
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Maes
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Quasar said:
Only reporting what I've heard in turn, good sir. It may not be true, I have yet to find an actual reliable media source stating these things, to tell the truth.


Maybe the truth is somewhere in between: it might have no physical local media, not even a HD for saving downloaded games, but it might stream the executable code and various data into RAM and persist them through e.g. battery RAM backup and/or temp flash storage for when you turn it off, just big enough for whatever is in RAM and little more.

This would also explain the huge jump in RAM capacity compared to its previous incarnation (TBQH however, the PS3 had just as much RAM as an entry-level bottom feeder PC of its own era, as does the PS4), as well as the huge on-board processing capacity, which it wouldn't need if it was a 100% streamed "console". So, it might be a "smarter terminal" after all ;-)

Old Post 02-22-13 20:04 #
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Captain Toenail
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You know for once I'm not all that interested in the next PlayStation, and I've had a PS1, two PS2s (disc drive laser broke), two PS3s (phat got the YLOD) and a PSP! PlayStation has definitely been my main gaming outlet apart from Doom on the PC of course, and this next incarnation just looks 'meh'. Maybe I'm growing up?

The games displayed so far are boring and the 'social features' I feel intrusive. Gaming for me is personal downtime, an opportunity to get away from everyone. As for lack of backwards compatibility, disappointing, but not that big an issue, I mean everyone's PS3 isn't suddenly going to vanish? Also the touchscreen on the controller is unnecessary IMO.

The rumours of second-hand games being locked out is worrying, I find it hard enough trying to justify a 40 game purchase on release day. (I get most of my games used from Amazon or the local Blockbuster store - I also get a discount from family friend too who works there, though that shop is about to close in the near-future too no doubt :/ )

As for the 'PC master-race' discussing the hardware, the point of a console is to be convenient and cheap. You know you don't have to pick a side, you can enjoy any machine you want. I have an XBox, PC (and a Wii!) too you know. I find the concept of playing games such as Angry Birds on a smart phone or tablet alien and strange, but I don't rant on about it. :P

Old Post 02-22-13 20:35 #
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Csonicgo


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Maes said:


Maybe the truth is somewhere in between: it might have no physical local media, not even a HD for saving downloaded games, but it might stream the executable code and various data into RAM and persist them through e.g. battery RAM backup and/or temp flash storage for when you turn it off, just big enough for whatever is in RAM and little more.

This would also explain the huge jump in RAM capacity compared to its previous incarnation (TBQH however, the PS3 had just as much RAM as an entry-level bottom feeder PC of its own era, as does the PS4), as well as the huge on-board processing capacity, which it wouldn't need if it was a 100% streamed "console". So, it might be a "smarter terminal" after all ;-)



that's exactly what it is. Word is that games you previously owned won't be compatible, PSN is pretty much dead as of now. Saves won't be transferred, and you'll have to re-buy games you had before.

PS4 games may still be Downloadable or on Disc. We don't know because there really isn't a PS4 yet. the PS4 as it is now is a white, bland PC box somewhere.

http://www.technewsworld.com/images/rw3838/white-box-pc-1.jpg.jpg

Someone on twitter at the conference said a little too much and revealed that little bit of info.

Old Post 02-22-13 20:58 #
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Jodwin
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Quasar said:
Word on the street is that PS4 is a glorified media terminal. You won't buy games or even download them. They'll execute on a server somewhere and you'll view a stream of the content. How responsiveness is supposed to be maintained at a level necessary to support games like Unreal in such a scheme is the question people should be asking.

The game streaming is for old games, as in PS, PS2 and PS3 titles. That's supposed to be their excuse for having no backwards compatibility built into the system: You can kind of play the old games if your internet connection doesn't suck provided that you buy them again.

As for an other false rumor here, Sony isn't going to prevent second hand sales for PS4 games, this is something that they themselves have stated. The prevention is what MS is possibly going to do for 720, but even that is still uncertain.

Old Post 02-22-13 21:09 #
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Aliotroph?
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Why should a console have backwards compatibility? My SNES can't play NES games and I don't expect it to. Is there some new rule that you can only have one generation of consoles ouside of the closet? It seems to me that very few consoles have ever done a robust job of backward compatibility anyway. The ones that did typically had a lot of extra hardware to make it happen.

This guy says used games will work and implies discs are still a thing. Will be fun to watch the raging if he's not telling the truth.

Old Post 02-22-13 21:39 #
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Graf Zahl
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Jodwin said:

The prevention is what MS is possibly going to do for 720, but even that is still uncertain.



It would figure: They are constantly shooting themselves in the foot with idiotic ideas that ultimately only harm their platforms.

I think when having to make a decision to buy a console that allows resale and purchase of used games and one that doesn't anyone with half a brain wouldn't think twice which one is the smarter option.

Old Post 02-22-13 21:41 #
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Quasar
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Csonicgo said:

Someone on twitter at the conference said a little too much and revealed that little bit of info.


Heh. Reminds me of when Nintendo was touting the Ultra 64 at E3 by showing Cruis'n USA and Killer Instinct. These turned out to be pretty much the arcade versions of the games that they were showing.

But the fun didn't stop there. One intrepid reporter managed to pull up the table skirt for a moment, long enough to see quite plainly that the hardware running the games was a generic Silicon Graphics Indigo workstation.

I mean the console was supposedly a year or less from release, by my recollection, and it was apparently still complete vaporware.

Old Post 02-22-13 21:43 #
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Shadow Hog
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Aliotroph? said:
My SNES can't play NES games and I don't expect it to.
Funnily enough, the original plan was to have the SNES be able to play NES games, which is the logic behind some of the hardware they used (IIRC, mostly the CPU chosen); much faster alternatives existed for some parts, but the ones chosen would've allowed NES backwards compatibility. They didn't follow through with it, obviously.

Old Post 02-22-13 22:17 #
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gggmork
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Jodwin said:

You can kind of play the old games if your internet connection doesn't suck provided that you buy them again



Ha ha, they still sell "mario all stars" for wii, just like they sold it for snes, instead of people buying a 2nd hand NES system (probably some group on the modern console payroll buys all the old NES systems and destroys them). Society has ridiculous "give a corporation money" days like christmas and birthdays, practically forcing naive advertising susceptible parents and such to buy the latest newest gizmo which they assume is best, ultimately being tricked onto a platform (where each next generation is more locked down with more newfangled bullcrap and less gameplay, where "the program controls the users, not the user controls the program") where a game they could have gotten 1/10th the price on a NES has to be bought brand new albeit with load times and having to use a motion detecting 747 cockpit controller. Similar to the college text book scam where a new 13th edition with 3 changed words is mandatory and created as an excuse to force people to buy it new. Modern consoles have economically evolved into an advanced elaborate trick to make money with all the soul of a shitty movie sequel. Even the console itself is a sequel "ps 4: the return of ps again, um somethingth anniversary gold edition". Since each game is a clusterfuck requiring a committee, any programmer that still manages to have soul after the 14 hour workdays or whatever they have to endure will be drowned out in bureaucracy (a bureaucracy was in charge of spelling that word, I have to spell check it every time). Sure they might contribute one awesome part but it'll be like a little caged bird and juxtaposed in context with everything else.

The op youtubes look like great... movies (probably unskippable cutscenes after tons of loading and navigating through a menu of bullcrap to even get it started). And this is probably added to the bullcrap menu of the tv itself, like you have to operate 7 remotes to cycle through netflix and itunes or whatever crap and figure out which wireless controller is player 1 and why 2 player mode can't be turned off and bla bla bla, the game is to navigate the interface. Maybe you'll finally get a game running (the part where you're actually supposed to input stuff with the controller if such a part exists) and the gameplay will basically be like "hold the analogue stick down a bit in the direction you want to walk". The same essentially linear "game" movie happens on each replay. Each game is a mario 64 clone or a shooter and sequels only because they're less economically risky since joe sixpacks already heard of them before, just like he heard of a particular brand advertised in commercials for whatever he buys. Go buy the next similar game when you finish because replay value is bad for business, unlike the business model of popping in another quarter to keep playing at the arcade. Now the quarter unit they want is 70 whole bucks.

By the way (i don't have a wii but played someone else's) and there this "game" where there's apparently no purpose other than to create your own avatar, like you select your style of eyes/hair/glasses/cheeks/eyebrows/etc and give it your name. I seriously wonder if this all goes in a government database, like free surveillance, everyone entering their own info willingly, lol. Oh, and you can enter other people's avatars, like mine was done without permission, kinda like facebook tagging other peoples names in your photo. So what do YOUR eyebrows look like? Nevermind that we have some sort of facebook thing that scans your face to see if your worthy of being able to buy or sell. And then the nintendo dsi (? or I forget which similar system) had this camera on it, probably some guy at this very moment is surrounded by monitors looking at everyone's remotely activated dsi cameras like that movie sliver. Someone is probably looking at you right now.

Last edited by gggmork on 02-22-13 at 22:58

Old Post 02-22-13 22:37 #
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The Doomist
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Jesus, I still have the original PS1 and the non-analog and Dualshock controllers! I used to play Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon all the time! Playstation evolved quite well over the years. I don't think I'm gonna get the PS4, even though everything looks pretty nice.

Old Post 02-22-13 22:57 #
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Quasar
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gggmork said:

Too much stuff


http://www.doomworld.com/eternity/shots/eyeroll.gif

Old Post 02-22-13 23:02 #
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The Doomist
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But at this point, they're just trying to get money. A controller with a touch screen? The screen is so small! You don't really need it. The Wii U has a much bigger one! Microsoft's probably gonna make the same thing but with more advertising, and a slightly different home screen. Consoles are just not the same. I still don't know why "graphics is everything" to a lot of people. In 10 years, kids will say that PS3 graphics look like the Atari 2600's!

Old Post 02-22-13 23:03 #
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