Archvile
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Icelandic conservative party wants to lower the drinking age to 18 and other things..
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 02:47. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
hardcore_gamer
Fáviti Member


Posts: 2372
Registered: 03-07


So I just heard my nation's conservative party (The Independence party) make some good news and bad news about alcohol...

At the moment our nation doesn't allow private parties to sell booze except in places like bars and restaurants with the state having a monopoly on booze selling in special state run booze stores.

Today however (its like 2 months until the next elections) they made a statement where they said they wanted to change this.

They said that the drinking age should be lowered to 18 (the current drinking age is 20) and that stores and supermarkets should be allowed to sell wines and beer.

Now, to me I think this is partially good and partially bad.

I will start with the good:

I personally don't like the fact that the state has a monopoly on booze and find this fact to be annoying. I think that private parties should be allowed to sell booze if they so please. So I think it is good that steps are being taken to insure that this is becoming the case. But on the other hand...

The bad:

The biggest problem is that they want it to be possible to sell booze in supermarkets and other similar places. This is a horrible idea.

While I think responsible adults should be able to buy booze, I also think it should be made certain that it is very hard for minors to buy it. This will be basically impossible to do if beer and the like can be bought in supermarkets. My own local supermarket and local store often have a bunch of 14-15 year old's working at the registers, and I know it for a fact that they would not give even a single fuck about the age of the people that would try to buy the beer. So if this happens teenage drinking would go through the roof. I have some bad experience with drunk teens, so I would HATE to see this happen.

Some people make the argument that it doesn't matter because teens can get booze anyways with enough effort. But the problem with this argument is the "with enough effort part". I could buy hard drugs with "enough effort". I could buy ANYTHING with "enough effort". If beer can be bought without effort at any supermarket then teenage drinking WILL go up. It is also worth noting that I live in Iceland, which has a rather notorious binge drinking culture, so that is another reason for not wanting this to happen.

The second problem is the idea of lowering the drinking age. Why? What is so horrible with the idea of just waiting until your 20? I did, and I did not die waiting.

Some say that its stupid that you can't drink at 18 because you can do things like marry at the age of 18, but guess what: 99% of people don't marry at 18 because doing so is fucking stupid. Just like drinking when you are too young is fucking stupid. So yea, I think this is a very poor argument to use.

So basically as far as I am concerned:

The Good:

-The state monopoly on booze might be ended.
-Private parties could sell booze!

The Bad:

-Allowing supermarkets to sell booze would create easy access to booze for minors.

-The drinking age would be lowered for no good reason.

Thoughts?

Old Post 02-24-13 21:25 #
hardcore_gamer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
dew
experts


Posts: 3607
Registered: 05-08


drinking age in my country (czech republic) is 18 and pretty much everyone drinks from the age of roughly 15 anyways. i know denmark has drinking age of 18, except for beer (16). neither of these countries is a drunken hell and our teenagers are doing fine.

this issue is severely overblown by the fundies. i'm pretty sure getting some experience early on helps you NOT become an uncontrolled alco freak later on. hell, i'd sacrifice a day per semester to teach teen kids about alcohol in school - the practical way.

anyways, lowering the legal age will have 0 impact on your society, except broadening your liberites. have fun!

Old Post 02-24-13 21:40 #
dew is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 11204
Registered: 07-07


I always find it stupid that the drinking age would be above the legal majority. You're old enough to vote, to drive a car, to get a firearm (or apply for getting a license), to work in the sex industry, and to be legally responsible for your actions in front of a court, but not to drink alcoholic beverages? That's dumb.

Old Post 02-24-13 21:51 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7995
Registered: 08-04


God, you're such a fucking square. Here in Canada the limit is either eighteen or nineteen. I think eighteen should be the legal age to purchase for the simple reason you're old enough to go to prison and you're old enough to go to war -- you're an adult. 18, 19, 20, 21 does not necessarily make you a more responsible person, but experience with the substance does.

And bootlegging to kids has always existed, this won't make it any easier for them. We have government operated beer stores and I can tell you I had just an easy time getting my booze in college from adult friends willing to buy it for me.

Enjoy your liberties, dammit.

Old Post 02-24-13 21:56 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hardcore_gamer
Fáviti Member


Posts: 2372
Registered: 03-07



dew said:
drinking age in my country (czech republic) is 18 and pretty much everyone drinks from the age of roughly 15 anyways.


Which just means that alcohol is too poorly regulated.



dew said:
i know denmark has drinking age of 18, except for beer (16). neither of these countries is a drunken hell and our teenagers are doing fine.



No they (Denmark) haven't. Drinking has become a problem in Denmark amongst other places:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/eu...bits_in_the_eu/

Indeed, Denmark's drinking rates stem in part from a minimum purchasing age of 16 (up from 15 a few years back), low beer and liquor taxes (beer costs 67 cents a bottle), and few restrictions on advertising, specialists said.

"We are the country of Tuborg and Carlsberg, and images of these products are everywhere," said Dr. Pernille Due, a researcher at the University of Copenhagen, who noted that Denmark's so-called green summer concerts are named not for the season but for the color of the sponsor's beer bottles.

"I went to see `Harry Potter' -- the audience was mostly children -- and there was advertising for Smirnoff and Tuborg," she said. ``Denmark stands out when it comes to problem drinking, but there is not a strong will on the part of government to handle this problem."


And:

"Although overall alcohol consumption in Europe has dropped since the mid-1970s, rates are rising quickly in a number of categories, such as binge drinking among young people, which is particularly high in Britain, Bulgaria, and Sweden, as well as Denmark."




dew said:
anyways, lowering the legal age will have 0 impact on your society, except broadening your liberites. have fun!



This is just pure ignorance.

Old Post 02-24-13 21:58 #
hardcore_gamer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
CorSair
Forum Regular


Posts: 912
Registered: 11-12


Depending on what kind of people and what are their attitudes on alcohol, it is not really a problem.
Except if your country is full of young shallow cunts who just keeps guzzling that booze for no fucking reason.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:00 #
CorSair is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Aliotroph?
postCount++


Posts: 2662
Registered: 03-02


It's not ethical to have a drinking age higher than the voting/marrying/deploying to WWIII age. I don't care if it's lower than that, but if it's higher you're doing it wrong.

It won't matter if they sell beer in grocery stores. While we still have separate liquor stores here (often run by the grocery stores on the other side of the parking lot) they have to check IDs of young-looking people and won't sell to people obviously buying for underage friends. How is this enforced? Secret shoppers, reporting, etc. Easy. Much better than spending the state's money trying to run liquor stores.

And yeah, liquor stores are one of the best things to privatize. Once ours got into price wars beer managed to remain quite affordable while the selection became better. The selection did in fact become much, much better. I can easily choose from hundreds of beers on any given day. Turns out liquor is one of those industries that naturally lends itself to competition from little guys, even if the big companies still have the most sales.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:03 #
Aliotroph? is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hardcore_gamer
Fáviti Member


Posts: 2372
Registered: 03-07


I see some people are already making the "people buying booze illegally has always been possible argument".

Well, its crap.

http://www.cracked.com/article_2006...-season_p2.html

Making it harder to buy booze DOES reduce drinking. It doesn't prevent it completely, but while there would still be some teens who would buy booze their numbers would be lower if it were harder for them to do so.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:11 #
hardcore_gamer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hardcore_gamer
Fáviti Member


Posts: 2372
Registered: 03-07



Aliotroph? said:
It's not ethical to have a drinking age higher than the voting/marrying/deploying to WWIII age. I don't care if it's lower than that, but if it's higher you're doing it wrong.



I would be much more willing to raise the voting and marrying age to 20 then I would ever be to lower the drinking age to 18.

EDIT: Ops, I thought I was editing my earlier post. Sorry for the double post.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:12 #
hardcore_gamer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7995
Registered: 08-04


Iceland probably wishes to privatize alcohol vendors to save up some tax payer funds to enforce the banning of pornography.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:12 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hardcore_gamer
Fáviti Member


Posts: 2372
Registered: 03-07



Technician said:
Iceland probably wishes to privatize alcohol vendors to save up some tax payer funds to enforce the banning of pornography.


Ugh, don't get me started on that crap.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:18 #
hardcore_gamer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12649
Registered: 07-06


Maybe perhaps of your climate and/or tendency towards depression/high suicide rates, many people would really risk drinking themselves to death or become chronic alcoholics, if booze was unregulated and cheap? I think that's the same rationale used in all Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Finland, which also have high depression and suicide rates) to justify relatively high alcohol prices (I don't think they have such retail restrictions though). I know this probably sounds like a stereotype, but it's probably not far from the truth, or at least it was once used as an excuse for putting those regulations in place.

And, just FIY, alcohol is pretty much a state monopoly EVERYWHERE with regards to its production, and producers' licenses are strongly regulated everywhere. No state tolerates moonshining.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:34 #
Maes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Quast
insert title here


Posts: 2646
Registered: 09-02



hardcore_gamer said:
Making it harder to buy booze DOES reduce drinking. It doesn't prevent it completely, but while there would still be some teens who would buy booze their numbers would be lower if it were harder for them to do so.

Here in the united states, the legal drinking age is 21 and I don't think I've ever seen or heard of teenagers drinking alcohol under any circumstances. It just doesn't really happen. In fact, because of our rather high age limit, by the time individuals turn 21 they are generally responsible and mature in both body and mind and have a thorough understanding of the effects of alcohol consumption. We have almost no drinking 'culture' to speak of and almost no issues with binge drinking, ill health or various social problems such as criminal or violent activity like domestic abuse associated with alcohol.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:41 #
Quast is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7995
Registered: 08-04



Quast said:
Here in the united states, the legal drinking age is 21 and I don't think I've ever seen or heard of teenagers drinking alcohol under any circumstances. It just doesn't really happen. In fact, because of our rather high age limit, by the time individuals turn 21 they are generally responsible and mature in both body and mind and have a thorough understanding of the effects of alcohol consumption. We have almost no drinking 'culture' to speak of and almost no issues with binge drinking, ill health or various social problems such as criminal or violent activity like domestic abuse associated with alcohol.
The great thing about text is it's easy to keep a straight face.

Old Post 02-24-13 22:59 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7728
Registered: 07-00



hardcore_gamer said:
The biggest problem is that they want it to be possible to sell booze in supermarkets and other similar places. This is a horrible idea.
It works in every other country in other Europe. All you do is set huge fines for shops that sell to minors, then it's in their interest to ensure that the rules are enforced.

Old Post 02-24-13 23:14 #
fraggle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Bucket
ROCK & LOAD
COCK BEEN BLOWED
IN YOUR MOUTH,
MANJUICE EXPLOAD


Posts: 4984
Registered: 01-04



hardcore_gamer said:
I see some people are already making the "people buying booze illegally has always been possible argument".

"We should only pass laws that criminals will follow." - Jon Stewart

Old Post 02-24-13 23:22 #
Bucket is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hardcore_gamer
Fáviti Member


Posts: 2372
Registered: 03-07



fraggle said:
It works in every other country in other Europe. All you do is set huge fines for shops that sell to minors, then it's in their interest to ensure that the rules are enforced.


That won't work.

There is already a law that says stores can't sell cigarets to people under 18, and yet they do so anyways. There simply isn't enough monitoring of those things here and not enough people actively care for this to work. Booze goes into the supermarkets and local stores, the teens will buy it. Simple as.

The only way to properly make sure minors can't legally buy booze is by forcing people to buy their booze at places where it is likely that they will be asked for ID's.

Old Post 02-24-13 23:30 #
hardcore_gamer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Aliotroph?
postCount++


Posts: 2662
Registered: 03-02


And why are they more likely to be asked in those other places than in supermarkets? This is a problem best solved with enforcement, not telling businesses they can't sell entire classes of products.

Old Post 02-24-13 23:59 #
Aliotroph? is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hardcore_gamer
Fáviti Member


Posts: 2372
Registered: 03-07



Aliotroph? said:
And why are they more likely to be asked in those other places than in supermarkets? This is a problem best solved with enforcement, not telling businesses they can't sell entire classes of products.


Because an adult who's sole job is to sell booze is more likely to care about asking people for ID's then some 14 year old working at a supermarket?

Old Post 02-25-13 00:07 #
hardcore_gamer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
darknation
Forum Staple


Posts: 3083
Registered: 03-02


i'm going to post a relpy to this when I am sober

Old Post 02-25-13 01:55 #
darknation is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Bucket
ROCK & LOAD
COCK BEEN BLOWED
IN YOUR MOUTH,
MANJUICE EXPLOAD


Posts: 4984
Registered: 01-04


See you in another two years.

Old Post 02-25-13 03:31 #
Bucket is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Belial
Senior Member


Posts: 2337
Registered: 09-05



hardcore_gamer said:
That won't work.

Works well enough in Poland.

Teens will get drunk anyway.

Old Post 02-25-13 07:08 #
Belial is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Aliotroph?
postCount++


Posts: 2662
Registered: 03-02


Yeah, liquor stores here are good at not selling to teens and it doesn't matter at all. Parents, friends, or that weird guy by the movie theatre will be enablers, each with their own (lack of?) reasons.

Old Post 02-25-13 07:48 #
Aliotroph? is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
kristus
Megablast!


Posts: 10620
Registered: 07-00


Back when I was a minor, we got hold of homebrew more often than not.

Old Post 02-25-13 09:09 #
kristus is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Enjay
ASK ME ABOUT FOOTBALL / STEAM / DEAD CELEBRITIES / THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT


Posts: 6382
Registered: 12-00



dew said:
drinking age in my country (czech republic) is 18 and pretty much everyone drinks from the age of roughly 15 anyways. i know denmark has drinking age of 18, except for beer (16). neither of these countries is a drunken hell and our teenagers are doing fine.

That pretty much describes things around here - except the last line. Around here, the goal for many 15 year olds is to drink enough to be sick at the weekend. In fact, that's the whole point. If you don't drink that much, you're doing it wrong.


Gez said:
I always find it stupid that the drinking age would be above the legal majority. You're old enough to vote, to drive a car, to get a firearm (or apply for getting a license), to work in the sex industry, and to be legally responsible for your actions in front of a court, but not to drink alcoholic beverages? That's dumb.

Yes, agreed. Here you can be married at 16 but you can't buy a bottle of whisky to take up to your room on the wedding night nor rent a porn DVD to get you in the mood. Not that either of those things are particularly required on a wedding night. Mind you, if you are getting married @ 16 you've already had at least a year of getting so drunk that you vomit every weekend. ;)

Old Post 02-25-13 11:14 #
Enjay is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Phml
Forum Staple


Posts: 3373
Registered: 06-09



i'm pretty sure getting some experience early on helps you NOT become an uncontrolled alco freak later on.


This has been widely demonstrated, through both statistical evidence and controlled lab tests, to be wrong. The sooner a teen starts drinking, the more vulnerable he'll be to alcohol and the more he'll drink later.

Old Post 02-25-13 11:34 #
Phml is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
cannonball
Senior Member


Posts: 2255
Registered: 07-11


I think it has more to do with culture and education rather than an ything else. It is how alcohol is seem to the eyes of the public in a given country. I have no idea what your/and any other icelandic peoples vision of what drinking alcohol is so won't comment there. But there are stark differences, such as in southern Europe, experience from being in Southern France quite often during my childhood, that the drinking culture is more social, and whilst people do drink quite a lot of wine and beer, it's not to excess and not often alone (often with the consumption of food), whether this has changed now I'm not sure.
The drinking culture where I live.... The UK, well I think that is known throughout the world and can be described by this picture *facepalm*
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1...19&tx=152&ty=30

Old Post 02-25-13 12:00 #
cannonball is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Eris Falling
Forum Staple


Posts: 3038
Registered: 07-12



cannonball said:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1...19&tx=152&ty=30



Friday night in East London!

Old Post 02-25-13 12:38 #
Eris Falling is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7728
Registered: 07-00



hardcore_gamer said:


Because an adult who's sole job is to sell booze is more likely to care about asking people for ID's then some 14 year old working at a supermarket?

If you enact harsh penalties on the supermarkets for breaking the law (which is what happens here) then there isn't really likely to be any difference. No matter what the age of their employees is, they'll make sure they're properly trained and properly disciplined if they fuck up (sell to minors, lose your job). 14 year olds may be inexperienced but they're perfectly capable of following instructions just like any other human being. And it's not like everyone who works in a supermarket is a teenager.

Fundamentally though, the exact same thing is already done in every other European country. It works fine. I don't know why you seem to think that Iceland is going to be special and different.

Old Post 02-25-13 12:41 #
fraggle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Egregor
Junior Member


Posts: 213
Registered: 11-12


Here is Washington State, USA we had a similar situation. The state ran the alcohol stores where you could buy whiskey, vodka, etc. but you could still buy drinks and shots at bars. Stores and supermarkets could still sell beer and wine.

Then an amendment was passed by popular vote so that ONLY large stores (corporations) could sell hard alcohol (besides bars). It ultimately was a bad thing because A: prices went up B: funding for schools, roads, etc. went down C: large corporations now control yet another market.

Old Post 02-26-13 00:43 #
Egregor is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 02:47. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Icelandic conservative party wants to lower the drinking age to 18 and other things..

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.