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fodders
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Just how much is the life of a Palestinian Muslim worth? Consider the following examples and judge for yourself.

The Nov. 16 conviction by an Israeli military court of four Israeli soldiers for killing an 18-year-old West Bank Palestinian passer-by at a road block. The soldiers were members of the elite ‘Cherry’ unit which uses covert tactics to ambush, and kill what they call Palestinian extremists. The Unit’s activities have been reported many items before in the Israeli press.

In one case, disguised as Arabs, Cherry unit soldiers attended a soccer game, surrounded one of the players on their list and, after they had knocked him to the ground, shot him dead before the spectators.

In another case, they loitered outside the door of a house until someone knocked and was admitted. Then, before the door could be closed, they rushed inside, guns blazing, killing or wounding the occupants. In other cases they have walked up to parked cars and, mercilessly, shot the occupants to death.

No search warrant, no statement of charges, no arrest. Just killing of those they suspected were ‘terrorists’, and anyone who happened to be with them. In any other country, ‘Cherry’ would be called a death squad. In the Israeli defense forces it is ‘an elite unit’. In the current case, the convicted soldiers had set up a night-time road block, beckoned a stopped driver to come forward, flashed a truck-mounted searchlight in his eyes when he did, and then fired a burst of machine gun fire through his windshield. Miraculously the driver, Bilal Amli, lived to testify but his 18-year-old companion in the front seat, Iyad Mahmoud Badran, was killed. Neither of the automobile’s occupants were accused of anything.

For the death of Badran, the 1.251 st Palestinian killed by Israeli soldiers since December 1987 according to the Washington’s Post’s Jerusalem correspondent, the four death squad members were sentenced to pay one agora, which is a non-existent coin worth one hundredth of a Shekel, which means about a third of a US cent. The sentence seemed inexplicable to Palestinian human rights workers. ‘It means the (Israeli) government wants to show how much a Palestinian person’s life is worth,’ ventured Bassam Eid, founder of the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group.

‘The sentence is so ridiculous, I don’t know what to say,’ commented Shirls Eran of another human rights watchdog group. ‘If they are not guilty, they should be found not guilty. And if they are guilty, why are they fined an agora?’

Anti Sharon rally

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Last edited by fodders on 04-03-02 at 18:58

Old Post 04-03-02 18:44 #
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Danarchy
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fodders said:
Anti Sharon rally

Dammit, I wish I could go...

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Old Post 04-04-02 05:43 #
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Scientist
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The reason these people think they can get away with anything, is because they can.

Old Post 04-04-02 23:31 #
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dsm
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Just yesterday I saw a debate programme, where a Palestinean girl and an Israelian girl sat and discussed this conflict with the newsreader/whatever.

It striked me how the Israelian girl claimed that Sharon was tired of this conflict too and wanted to see it end.
Now if he is so damn interested in ending the conflict, why in Hell's 666 gates doesn't he want to sit down with Arafat to discuss a treaty?

You don't end a conflict by refusing to meet the other party's leader to discuss matters.

(I wonder if dr_st is still alive to see this thread. I hope he either hasn't seen it or just doesn't want to discuss it, because if it's none of these two possibilities, then it would mean that he's been killed by one of these suicide cocksuckers.)

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Old Post 04-05-02 10:13 #
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fodders
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dr_st tends to refuse to discuss with anyone who disagrees with him

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 04-05-02 12:47 #
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dsm
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Typical reaction from someone who's in the middle of a war.
Sad but true :-(

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Old Post 04-05-02 13:45 #
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Phoenix
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(to the first post)
Hmm yeah, one can argue cleverly against Israel and pro palestine. Aren't we missing something?
The issue the UN and the Europe Union is missing is that the terrorist perpetrating the acts are extremely young. Those kids have had been brainwashed for two things, Israel must be destroyed and it is worth dieing for this goal. Now who is doing the brainwashing to those kids? Was not Arefat starting as a terrorist? And he is not now a "main stream" politicians? Israel is now supposed to believe that the new wave of terrorist will not become mainstream politicians? The ones who clearly said they wont stop until Israel is gone?

The UN and Europe Leaders are also missing that Great Britain gave Israel their land back wich was taken by the Roman Empire with extreme prejudice. They should have the right to defend them selves like any other state to destroy those who want to destroy them. Only Bush was willing to accept that. (until he was pushed by the world to comply) Now the UN and Europe says, oh no Israel, you can't, we will give you a political solution to this problem. This can only mean, that eventually the terrorist demand will be met, and Israel will be once more be annihilated; hell, this time it seems with the support from the whole fucking world. They, the world, are still as prejudice against Isreal since time began; and side rather with criminal sadistic kid brainwashers than demonstrate rational thinking. Welcome to the world kids, nothing has changed.

My solution, take land from those who support those terrorist and settle the Palestinians there. Say a little from France, Belgium Germany etc. ; or simply let Isreal take care of their own problems without interferance from chicken shit politians and whatever-"rights"-groups. They have no fucking clue.

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Old Post 04-06-02 15:25 #
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fodders
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cool shit

The Sharm el-Sheikh Memorandum:The Government of the State of Israel ("GOI") and the Palestine Liberation Organization ("PLO") commit themselves to full and mutual implementation of the Interim Agreement and all other agreements concluded between them since September 1993 (hereinafter "the prior agreements"), and all outstanding commitments emanating from the prior agreements. Without derogating from the other requirements of the prior agreements, the two Sides have agreed as follows:

1. Permanent Status negotiations:


In the context of the implementation of the prior agreements, the two Sides will resume the Permanent Status negotiations in an accelerated manner and will make a determined effort to achieve their mutual goal of reaching a Permanent Status Agreement based on the agreed agenda i.e. the specific issues reserved for Permanent Status negotiators and other issues of common interest.

The two Sides reaffirm their understanding that the negotiations on the Permanent Status will lead to the implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338;

The two Sides will make a determined effort to conclude a Framework Agreement on all Permanent Status issues in five months from the resumption of the Permanent Status negotiations;

The two Sides will conclude a comprehensive agreement on all Permanent Status issues within one year from the resumption of the Permanent Status negotiations;

Permanent Status negotiations will resume after the implementation of the first stage of release of prisoners and the second stage of the First and Second Further Redeployments and not later than September 13, 1999. In the Wye River Memorandum, the United States has expressed its willingness to facilitate these negotiations.
2. Phase One and Phase Two of the Further Redeployments

The Israeli Side undertakes the following with regard to Phase One and Phase Two of the Further Redeployments:


On September 5, 1999, to transfer 7% from Area C to Area B;

On November 15, 1999, to transfer 2% from Area B to Area A and 3% from Area C to Area B;

On January 20, 2000, to transfer 1% from Area C to Area A, and 5.1% from Area B to Area A.
3. Release of Prisoners


The two Sides shall establish a joint committee that shall follow-up on matters related to release of Palestinian prisoners.

The Government of Israel shall release Palestinian and other prisoners who committed their offences prior to September 13, 1993, and were arrested prior to May 4, 1994. The Joint Committee shall agree on the names of those who will be released in the first two stages. Those lists shall be recommended to the relevant Authorities through the Monitoring and Steering Committee;

The first stage of release of prisoners shall be carried out on September 5, 1999 and shall consist of 200 prisoners. The second stage of release of prisoners shall be carried out on October 8, 1999 and shall consist of 150 prisoners;

The joint committee shall recommend further lists of names to be released to the relevant Authorities through the Monitoring and Steering Committee;

The Israeli side will aim to release Palestinian prisoners before next Ramadan.
4. Committees


The Third Further Redeployment Committee shall commence its activities not later than September 13, 1999;

The Monitoring and Steering Committee, all Interim Committees (i.e. CAC, JEC, JSC, legal committee, people to people), as well as Wye River Memorandum committees shall resume and/or continue their activity, as the case may be, not later than September 13, 1999. The Monitoring and Steering Committee will have on its agenda, inter alia, the Year 2000, Donor/PA projects in Area C, and the issue of industrial estates;

The Continuing Committee on displaced persons shall resume its activity on October 1, 1999 (Article XXVII, Interim Agreement);

Not later than October 30, 1999, the two Sides will implement the recommendations of the Ad-hoc Economic Committee (article III-6, WRM).


5. Safe Passage

The operation of the Southern Route of the Safe Passage for the movement of persons, vehicles, and goods will start on October 1, 1999 (Annex I, Article X, Interim Agreement) in accordance with the details of operation, which will be provided for in the Safe Passage Protocol that will be concluded by the two Sides not later than September 30, 1999;

The two Sides will agree on the specific location of the crossing point of the Northern Route of the Safe Passage as specified in Annex I, Article X, provision c-4, in the Interim Agreement not later than October 5, 1999;

The Safe Passage Protocol applied to the Southern Route of the Safe Passage shall apply to the Northern Route of the Safe Passage with relevant agreed modifications;

Upon the agreement on the location of the crossing point of the Northern Route of the Safe Passage, construction of the needed facilities and related procedures shall commence and shall be ongoing. At the same time, temporary facilities will be established for the operation of the Northern Route not later than four months from the agreement on the specific location of the crossing-point;

In between the operation of the Southern crossing point of the Safe Passage and the Northern crossing point of the Safe Passage, Israel will facilitate arrangements for the movement between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, using non-Safe Passage routes other than the Southern Route of the Safe Passage;

The location of the crossing points shall be without prejudice to the Permanent Status negotiations (Annex I, Article X, provision e, Interim Agreement).
6. Gaza Sea Port

The two Sides have agreed on the following principles to facilitate and enable the construction works of the Gaza Sea Port. The principles shall not prejudice or preempt the outcome of negotiations on the Permanent Status:


The Israeli Side agrees that the Palestinian Side shall commence construction works in and related to the Gaza Sea Port on October 1, 1999;

The two Sides agree that the Gaza Sea Port will not be operated in any way before reaching a joint Sea Port protocol on all aspects of operating the Port, including security;

The Gaza Sea Port is a special case, like the Gaza Airport, being situated in an area under the responsibility of the Palestinian Side and serving as an international passage. Therefore, until the conclusion of a joint Sea Port Protocol, all activities and arrangements relating to the construction of the Port shall be in accordance with the provisions of the Interim Agreement, especially those relating to international passages, as adapted in the Gaza Airport Protocol;

The construction shall ensure adequate provision for effective security and customs inspection of people and goods, as well as the establishment of a designated checking area in the Port;

In this context, the Israeli side will facilitate on an on-going basis the works related to the construction of the Gaza Sea Port, including the movement in and out of the Port of vessels, equipment, resources, and material required for the construction of the Port;

The two Sides will coordinate such works, including the designs and movement, through a joint mechanism.
7. Hebron Issues


The Shuhada Road in Hebron shall be opened for the movement of Palestinian vehicles in two phases. The first phase has been carried out, and the second phase shall be carried out not later than October 30, 1999;

The wholesale market-Hasbahe will be opened not later than November 1, 1999, in accordance with arrangements which will be agreed upon by the two Sides;

A high level Joint Liaison Committee will convene not later than September 13, 1999 to review the situation in the Tomb of the Patriarchs / Al Haram Al Ibrahimi (Annex I, Article VII, Interim Agreement and as per the January 15, 1998 US Minute of Discussion).
8. Security


The two Sides will, in accordance with the prior agreements, act to ensure the immediate, efficient and effective handling of any incident involving a threat or act of terrorism, violence or incitement, whether committed by Palestinians or Israelis. To this end, they will cooperate in the exchange of information and coordinate policies and activities. Each side shall immediately and effectively respond to the occurrence or anticipated occurrence of an act of terrorism, violence or incitement and shall take all necessary measures to prevent such an occurrence;

Pursuant to the prior agreements, the Palestinian side undertakes to implement its responsibilities for security, security cooperation, on-going obligations and other issues emanating from the prior agreements, including, in particular, the following obligations emanating from the Wye River Memorandum:

continuation of the program for the collection of the illegal weapons, including reports;
apprehension of suspects, including reports;
forwarding of the list of Palestinian policemen to the Israeli Side not later than September 13, 1999;
beginning of the review of the list by the Monitoring and Steering Committee not later than October 15, 1999.
9. The two Sides call upon the international donor community to enhance its commitment and financial support to the Palestinian economic development and the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

10. Recognizing the necessity to create a positive environment for the negotiations, neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in accordance with the Interim Agreement.

11. Obligations pertaining to dates, which occur on holidays or Saturdays, shall be carried out on the first subsequent working day.

This memorandum will enter into force one week from the date of its signature.1


Made and signed in Sharm el-Sheikh, this fourth day of September 1999.

For the Government of the State of Israel
For the PLO

Witnessed by
For the Arab Republic of Egypt
For the United States of America
For the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAJ06qe0


1 It is understood that, for technical reasons, implementation of Article 2-a and the first stage mentioned in Article 3-c will be carried out within a week from the signing of this Memorandum.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/1413493.gif
Palestine has said many times they will adhere to this, Israel has continued to ignore this agreement and have, since signing, invaded the Palestine areas, destroyed houses, evicted or killed anyone who resisted and built jewish settlements there, right in the middle of Palestine areas, they diverted the river Jordan so they have no water supply of their own and are dependent on Israel allowing them water, is it any wonder that as an occupied people they use whatever means they can to try to gain freedom, much like the French and Polish did during the years of occupation by Nazi Germany, the government of Sharon is very similar to nazi Germany

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Last edited by fodders on 04-06-02 at 16:43

Old Post 04-06-02 16:14 #
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Phoenix
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So Israel is acting a little like Germany in the thirties? Is that it? And palestine is like Poland, getting run over?
Remember the deal Chamberlain (spell) did with Hitler? Did not work out in the end, did it? If what you said is correct and not just one sided, than surely we have the right to disarm Isreal, and make it protecturat under AngloAmerica rule and protection, just like the good old days, 100BC.

PALESTINE HAS HAD GIVEN A NEW LANDLORD BY BRITAIN IN 49. IF I DO NOT LIKE MY LANDLORD I CAN MOVE OUT. THEY CAN TOO. THE WHOLE WORLD CAN PITCH IN AND GIVE THEM SHELTER, IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD!

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Old Post 04-06-02 17:03 #
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dsm
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Phoenix said:

PALESTINE HAS HAD GIVEN A NEW LANDLORD BY BRITAIN IN 49. IF I DO NOT LIKE MY LANDLORD I CAN MOVE OUT. THEY CAN TOO. THE WHOLE WORLD CAN PITCH IN AND GIVE THEM SHELTER, IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD!


One thing is to move out of a house and go to live somewhere else in the same country, it's a completely different problem when you have to move to a different country.

You basically want the Palestineans to move away from a country where most people speak a language they understand and master, and move to a foreign country where rules are different from their home country and where they don't master the language there.

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Old Post 04-06-02 17:36 #
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Phoenix
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That was not meant as a realistic solution. Who would give up land (room) for them in the first place?

Also my opinion is just that an opinion, and extreme bias. I simply lost believe in that it is only Israel doing all the wrong things. - It is also self serving. I live in Canada, we got to deal with huge land claims from the "native indians", which I totally disagree with. [but this would be a new topic] We can not turn back time, and give everybody land back they once had. Imagine for a moment when the border moving would stop. At the Roman Empire? Before the first world war? When?

Therefor my stand is, that since when Isreal where given their land back without anyone establishing a Palestine state, any claims from those "people" are void. (As I said extreme bias, so flame away)

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Old Post 04-06-02 18:38 #
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fodders
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Phoenix said:
So Israel is acting a little like Germany in the thirties? Is that it?
What I meant was, the pictures of Israel rounding up every male between the ages of 14 and 50 and putting numbers on them.Does that not remind you of the way the Germans treated the jews? Putting numbers on the camp inmates? It is something that the jews have made mileage out of for 50 years, that numbering of people, you would think the one race that would never do this would be them wouldn't you?

PALESTINE HAS HAD GIVEN A NEW LANDLORD BY BRITAIN IN 49. IF I DO NOT LIKE MY LANDLORD I CAN MOVE OUT. THEY CAN TOO.

Between the partition plan for Palestine adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 29 November 1947 and the 1949 ceasefire that ended the Arab-Israeli war, begun by the invasion of 15 May 1948, several hundred thousand Palestinians abandoned their homes in territory that ended up occupied by Israel .

Palestinian and Arab historians have always maintained that this was an expulsion. The vast majority of the refugees (estimated at between 700,000 and 900,000) were, they say, forced to leave, first, as a result of clashes between Israelis and Palestinians, and then by the Arab-Israeli war, in which a political-military strategy of expulsion had been marked by several massacres. This position was stated as far back as 1961, by Walid Khalidi, in his essay "Plan Dalet: Master Plan for the Conquest of Palestine" and has recently been restated by Elias Sanbar in "Palestine 1948. L'Expulsion" .

Mainstream Israeli historians, on the other hand, have always claimed that the refugees (numbering, in their estimation, 500,000 at most) mostly left voluntarily, responding to calls from their leaders assuring them of a prompt return after victory. They deny that the Jewish Agency (and subsequently the Israeli government) had planned the exodus. Furthermore, they maintain that the few (and regrettable) massacres that occurred - particularly the Deir Yassin massacre of 9 April 1948 - were the work of extremist soldiers associated with Menachem Begin's Irgun and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi.

However, by the 1950s this version was already beginning to be contested by leading Israeli figures associated with the Communist Party and with elements of the Zionist left (notably Mapam). Later, in the mid-1980s, they were joined in their critique by a number of historians who described themselves as revisionist historians: Simha Flapan, Tom Segev, Avi Schlaim, Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris. It was Morris's book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", that first prompted public concern . Leaving aside differences of subject, methodology and viewpoint, what unites these historians is that they are bent on unpicking Israel's national myths . They have focused particularly on the myths of the first Arab-Israeli war, contributing (albeit partially, as we shall see), to establishing the truth about the Palestinian exodus. And in the process they have incurred the wrath of Israel's orthodox historians .





Fifty years ago the UN decided to partition Palestine into two states, one Arab, one Jewish. The ensuing Arab-Israeli war ended with Israel expanding its share of the land by a third, while what remained to the Arabs was occupied by Egypt and Jordan. Several thousand Palestinians fled their homes, becoming the refugees at the heart of the conflict. Israel has always denied that they were expelled, either forcibly or as a matter of policy. Israel's "new historians" have been re-examining that denial and have put an end to a number of myths.

"Only a few acknowledged that the father's story of return, redemption and liberation was also a story of conquest, displacement, oppression and death."
Yaron Ezrachi, "Rubber Bullets"



Between the partition plan for Palestine adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 29 November 1947 and the 1949 ceasefire that ended the Arab-Israeli war, begun by the invasion of 15 May 1948, several hundred thousand Palestinians abandoned their homes in territory that ended up occupied by Israel.

Palestinian and Arab historians have always maintained that this was an expulsion. The vast majority of the refugees (estimated at between 700,000 and 900,000) were, they say, forced to leave, first, as a result of clashes between Israelis and Palestinians, and then by the Arab-Israeli war, in which a political-military strategy of expulsion had been marked by several massacres. This position was stated as far back as 1961, by Walid Khalidi, in his essay "Plan Dalet: Master Plan for the Conquest of Palestine" and has recently been restated by Elias Sanbar in "Palestine 1948. L'Expulsion" .

Mainstream Israeli historians, on the other hand, have always claimed that the refugees (numbering, in their estimation, 500,000 at most) mostly left voluntarily, responding to calls from their leaders assuring them of a prompt return after victory. They deny that the Jewish Agency (and subsequently the Israeli government) had planned the exodus. Furthermore, they maintain that the few (and regrettable) massacres that occurred - particularly the Deir Yassin massacre of 9 April 1948 - were the work of extremist soldiers associated with Menachem Begin's Irgun and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi.

However, by the 1950s this version was already beginning to be contested by leading Israeli figures associated with the Communist Party and with elements of the Zionist left (notably Mapam). Later, in the mid-1980s, they were joined in their critique by a number of historians who described themselves as revisionist historians: Simha Flapan, Tom Segev, Avi Schlaim, Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris. It was Morris's book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", that first prompted public concern . Leaving aside differences of subject, methodology and viewpoint, what unites these historians is that they are bent on unpicking Israel's national myths . They have focused particularly on the myths of the first Arab-Israeli war, contributing (albeit partially, as we shall see), to establishing the truth about the Palestinian exodus. And in the process they have incurred the wrath of Israel's orthodox historians.

This research activity was originally stimulated by two separate sets of events. First, the opening of Israeli archives, both state and private, covering the period in question. Here it is worth noting that the historians appear to have ignored almost entirely both the archives of the Arab countries (not that these are notable for their accessibility) and oral history potential among Palestinians themselves, where considerable work has been done by other historians. As the Palestinian historian, Nur Masalha, rightly says: "History and historiography ought not necessarily be written, exclusively or mainly, by the victors".

Second, this delving into Israel's archives would perhaps not have borne such fruit if the following ten years had not been marked by the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and by the outbreak of the intifada in 1987. Both these events accentuated the split between the nationalist camp and the peace movement in Israel itself. As it turned out, the "new historians" were uncovering the origins of the Palestinian problem at precisely the moment that the whole question of Palestine was returning to centre stage.

In a recent article in the "Revue d'études palestiniennes" (8), Ilan Pappe, one of the pioneers of this "new historiography", has stressed the importance of the dialogue that was unfolding in that period between Israelis and Palestinians. It developed, he says, "basically among academics. Surprising as it may seem, it was thanks to this dialogue that most Israeli researchers who were working on their country's history and who had no links to the radical political organisations, became aware of the version of history held by their Palestinian counterparts. They became aware of the fundamental contradiction between Zionist national ambitions and their enactment at the expense of the local population in Palestine."

To this add that the manipulation of history for political ends is not an exclusively Israeli domain: most often it goes hand in hand with nationalism.

What lessons have the revisionist historians drawn from their diligent working-through of the archives? As regards the broad picture of the balance of power between Jews and Arabs in both 1947 and 1948, their results contradict the generally-held picture of a weak and poorly armed Jewish community in Palestine threatened with extermination by a highly armed and united Arab world - David versus Goliath. Quite the contrary. The revisionists concur in pointing to the many advantages enjoyed by the nascent Jewish state over its enemies: the decomposition of Palestinian society; the divisions in the Arab world and the inferiority of their armed forces (in terms of numbers, training and weaponry, and hence impact); the strategic advantage enjoyed by Israel as a result of its agreement with King Abdullah of Transjordan (in exchange for the West Bank, he undertook not to attack the territory allocated to Israel by the UN); British support for this compromise, together with the joint support of the United States and the Soviet Union; the sympathy of world public opinion and so forth.

This all helps to explain the devastating effectiveness of the Jewish offensives of spring 1948. It also sheds new light on the context in which the mass departure of Palestinians took place. The exodus was divided into two broadly equal waves: one before and one after the decisive turning-point of the declaration of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948 and the intervention of the armies of the neighbouring Arab states on the following day. One can agree that the flight of thousands of well-to-do Palestinians during the first few weeks following the adoption of the UN partition plan - particularly from Haifa and Jaffa - was essentially voluntary. The question is what was the truth of the departures that happened subsequently?

In the opening pages of "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", Benny Morris offers the outlines of an overall answer: using a map that shows the 369 Arab towns and villages in Israel (within its 1949 borders), he lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population. In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were expelled by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or for fear of an enemy attack, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin, where the news of the killings swept the country like wildfire.

By contrast, he found only six cases of departures at the instigation of local Arab authorities. "There is no evidence to show that the Arab states and the AHC wanted a mass exodus or issued blanket orders or appeals to the Palestinians to flee their homes (though in certain areas the inhabitants of specific villages were ordered by Arab commanders or the AHC to leave, mainly for strategic reasons)." ("The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", p. 129). On the contrary, anyone who fled was actually threatened with "severe punishment". As for the broadcasts by Arab radio stations allegedly calling on people to flee, a detailed listening to recordings of their programmes of that period shows that the claims were invented for pure propaganda.


Military operations marked by atrocities

In "1948 and After" Benny Morris examines the first phase of the exodus and produces a detailed analysis of a source that he considers basically reliable: a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948". This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. "At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases...

On 12 July 1948, within the framework of Operation Dani, a skirmish with Jordanian armoured forces served as a pretext for a violent backlash, with 250 killed, some of whom were unarmed prisoners. This was followed by a forced evacuation characterised by summary executions and looting and involving upwards of 70,000 Palestinian civilians - almost 10% of the total exodus of 1947- 49.

800,000 Refugees created over a period of twenty months


1947

29 November: The General Assembly of the United Nations adopts, with the required two thirds majority, a plan to partition Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an international zone involving Jerusalem and the Holy Places.


1948

January: Volunteer units organised as the Arab Liberation Army of Assistance (ALA) entered Palestine.

End of March: First deliveries of Czechoslovak arms to the Jewish forces. The Dalet Plan is put into operation.

9 April: Deir Yassin massacre.

18 April: The Haganah take Tiberias; four days later they take Haifa.

10 May: Safed is taken, followed by Jaffa two days later.

14 May: End of the British Mandate. Declaration of the State of Israel. De facto recognition of the new state by the United States. The armies of five Arab countries enter Palestine.

17 May: De jure recognition of Israel by the Soviet Union. The Haganah take St Jean d'Acre. The following day Egyptian troops take Beersheba.

28 May: The Jewish quarter of Jerusalem capitulates.

11 June-8 July: First truce.

9-17 July: Israel takes Lydda, Ramleh and Nazareth.

18 July-15 October: Second truce.

17 September: Assassination of the Swedish UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte by an extremist Zionist commando unit.

15 October: The Israeli army breaks the truce, and begins an offensive in the Negev.

11 December: The General Assembly of the United Nations calls for the refugees to have the right of return.

22 December: Renewed fighting between Egypt and Israel. Israel completes its conquest of the Negev. Israel withdraws from northern Sinai on 7 January 1949, but only after a threat of direct British intervention.


1949

24 February: Armistice between Israel and Egypt.

10 March: Israeli troops take Um Rashrash (Eilat).

23 March: Armistice between Israel and Lebanon.

3 April: Armistice between Israel and Transjordan.

11 May: Israel is admitted to the United Nations.

12 May: Israel and the Arab states sign the protocols of the Lausanne Conference.

20 July: Armistice between Israel and Syria.

8 December: Establishment of the United Nations organisation for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA).

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Old Post 04-06-02 18:46 #
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i think i failed this pop quiz...

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Old Post 04-07-02 03:07 #
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Good news tonight is Bush finally stood up to Israel and told them to leave Palestine "immediately", I do notice that within one hour of that Israeli tank fired a round into Arafat's compound, hoping to "accidentally" kill him I think, failed tho

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 04-07-02 03:35 #
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Too much to read... brain... not caring...

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Old Post 04-07-02 06:47 #
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fodders said:
.... Palestinian and Arab historians have always maintained that this was an expulsion. .....

Yes, we do know what the viewpoint of the those historians are. To the remaining; care to list why the Israelies did what they did? Or should I?

Also to your second post about Bush, what news do you follow? Isreal will pull out once the source of the terrorist is destroyed, Bush told them to speed things up, not to pull out half finished!

Keep in mind kids blowing themself up can do that in London, Berlin, Washington ... as well as in Jerusalem. Also did you know that Hossein offers $US 25,000.00 to the families convincing their kids to blow themself up? With proper brainwashing not just Isreal everyone supporting Isreal is a target. Could that be why the world bows to the terrorist, 'cause they are chicken afrait they could be the next target?

Do we have to find a solution to the Mideast Crisis? Hell yes, should we bow to terrorist? Anyone accepting a Arefat, which is a terrorist for the last 30 years, should at least consider the rhetoric on fucking TV, and if this is the whole story.

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Old Post 04-07-02 19:31 #
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Hossein offers $US 25,000.00 to the families convincing their kids to blow themself up?
I think you mean Hussein? Yes he does pay compensation to family of dead bombers, in his eyes and the Palestinians eyes it is a war against occupation. The western world pays compensation to the families of our soldiers that die in battle so, we cannot claim exclusion on this point

should we bow to terrorist?
No of course not, if every Palestinian terrorist were killed by Sharon the murdering butcher I would not shed a tear. It's the innocent on both sides being killed that I speak out for, but it's the Palestinian innocents that suffer most.

Bush told them to speed things up, not to pull out half finished!



He told them to get OUT

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Old Post 04-07-02 22:28 #
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dsm said:
Just yesterday I saw a debate programme, where a Palestinean girl and an Israelian girl sat and discussed this conflict with the newsreader/whatever.

It striked me how the Israelian girl claimed that Sharon was tired of this conflict too and wanted to see it end.
Now if he is so damn interested in ending the conflict, why in Hell's 666 gates doesn't he want to sit down with Arafat to discuss a treaty?

You don't end a conflict by refusing to meet the other party's leader to discuss matters.

(I wonder if dr_st is still alive to see this thread. I hope he either hasn't seen it or just doesn't want to discuss it, because if it's none of these two possibilities, then it would mean that he's been killed by one of these suicide cocksuckers.)



Don't worry, dsm, I'm still alive. And I told you a million times why I don't want to discuss the situation, especially on a public message board. In private, it still can be OK, with some people, like you, for example.

To answer your question why Sharon doesn't want to talk to Arafat and why I don't want Sharon to talk to Arafat is because there is nothing left to talk about. During previous negotiations and with the current war the Palestinians have made it very clear that they will only accept "peace" on terms that mean the end of Israel as a jewish country. Very few radical leftwing jerks in Israel agree to that, and neither Sharon nor I are among them.

Email me or PM me if you want to talk about it, although I can't imagine why would you.

Old Post 04-08-02 12:58 #
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to fodders and palestine suppoerters
first links to official UN documents,

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85...5256a570068a2c6!OpenDocument

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85...5256a570063ab5b!OpenDocument

One can follow the whole history from the view point of the UN there, and also the hypocrisy perpetrated by the world.

As a born again Christian, pure bread German it's a shame that since Israel came into existence it was hated by the world. When they dismantled Israel by orders of Ceasar and fled into the world they were persecuted throughout.

Now people claim they do to palestine what was done to Israel. Palestine wants to extort from the world what never was, and the world is once more blinded against Israel.

end.

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Old Post 04-08-02 15:04 #
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What do you infer from linking to those 2 unsusbstantiated letters?

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 04-08-02 15:29 #
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http://www.doomworld.com/evomo/forum3.gif



In all seriousness, I followed those links on the post right above this one. Damn interesting read I must say, although there really isn't anything to back them up is there?

I'd like to hear, in less than 100 words, Fod's grand solution to this problem... or if there even is one. =/

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Old Post 04-08-02 15:29 #
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Israel withdraws it's occupying settlements and withdraws to the borders agreed to, all the Arab nations have agreed to this, in fact they agreed to this the day before Israel invaded last week, Palestinians stop all acts of agression against Israel. End of problem.

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 04-08-02 18:05 #
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"Solution: put Arafat, Sharon and a knife in a locked room. The survivor gets life in prison for murder."
It's just a Slashdot .sig, don't take it seriously.

Old Post 04-08-02 23:13 #
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I do not think these will be good solutions. They do not solve the main problem which is the root of the crisis. This root I think is the inequality between the jews and the Palestines. The jews own amost everything is Israel. It was just a matter of time for the Intifadah to start. Think of being a Palestine looking at huge fenced houses homing rich jews, while you are poor. And all of this on your brithground. Not only did the jews get your homeland but they received the military force and weaponary to secure it. And the laws get changed (in feavor of the jews of course). They control all military, economical and political power.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
-Frédéric Bastiat

The Palestinian people don't blow theimselfs up for fun, or because they are "brainwashed", their resistance (Intifadah) is a logical result of oppression.

"To revolt is a natural tendency of life. Even a worm turns against the foot that crushes it. In general, the vitality and relative dignity of an animal can be measured by the intensity of its instinct to revolt."
-Mikhail Bakunin

I wish I had the correct solution to this terribly complitated problem. But I don't.
Untill this crisis is fixed it will remain a sad sad situation.

Old Post 04-09-02 00:09 #
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fodders said:
What do you infer from linking to those 2 unsusbstantiated letters?

Those unsusbstantiated letters are from the UN.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/
and I said you can follow the hole Isreal/Palestine mess from the top. I did not know I had to place that link as well.

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Old Post 04-09-02 16:52 #
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Scientist said:
I do not think these will be good solutions. They do not solve the main problem which is the root of the crisis. This root I think is the inequality between the jews and the Palestines. The jews own amost everything is Israel. It was just a matter of time for the Intifadah to start. Think of being a Palestine looking at huge fenced houses homing rich jews, while you are poor. And all of this on your brithground. Not only did the jews get your homeland but they received the military force and weaponary to secure it. And the laws get changed (in feavor of the jews of course). They control all military, economical and political power.


Yep, that actually kinda proves my point. Thanks for your post. "inequality between jews and that Palestines" those poor palestines. "The jews own amost everything in Isreal", I take it jews still can't have it all. "rich Jews" can be blown up.
LOL and you wonder why there wont be piece in this region?

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Old Post 04-09-02 17:06 #
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Look at the 1948 agreement, then look at what Israel has claimed now, the dotted line are the new boundries compared to the 1948 agreement, and look also at the black triangles, these are Israel settlements (occupying Palestinian lands) the legal owners were thrown out by Israeli army, or killed if they fought back, as long as Israel is the only country in the world occupying anothers, the Palestinians have every right to resist
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/fodders/wads/israel.jpg

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Old Post 04-09-02 17:12 #
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Right to resist? Sure. Isreal started to retreat and get ambushed by your fine palestinian firends. (todays news) Smart move on the palestines, wonder how the fucking press argues that one away, Oh, let me guess, they had a right, I forgot!

JUST AS YOU CLAIM, ISRAEL CAN NOT TAKE AWAY INNOCENT LIVES NEITHER HAVE THE PALESTINES, unless of course you view a soldier not human as one arab just explained to me!

As for '48, on what grounds have palestine any claims? They never did anything, except hang out in foreing terretory while Isrealies where expelled in 70BC.

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Old Post 04-10-02 14:52 #
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Phoenix said:
Right to resist? Sure. Isreal started to retreat and get ambushed by your fine palestinian firends. (todays news) Smart move on the palestines, wonder how the fucking press argues that one away, Oh, let me guess, they had a right, I forgot!

JUST AS YOU CLAIM, ISRAEL CAN NOT TAKE AWAY INNOCENT LIVES NEITHER HAVE THE PALESTINES, unless of course you view a soldier not human as one arab just explained to me!

As for '48, on what grounds have palestine any claims? They never did anything, except hang out in foreing terretory while Isrealies where expelled in 70BC.

You need to read the news with greater attention or read correct news, Israel did not start to retreat, they had killed everyone they considered they needed to kill in those two villages, so felt able to fall back, they invaded another large town at the same time, so it cannot be called retreating can it? As to the "get ambushed by your fine palestinian firends."(sic), let me see if I understand you, the Israeli soldiers have invaded Janin killing 250 Palestinians, many of them are women and children, but the Palestinians are not allowed to fight them? 2 versions of what happened, "A suicide bomber detonated his explosives at the same time that these were set off and snipers on surrounding roofs also fired on the soldiers. The buildings collapsed on them. It was timed to perfection." (this is Israels story) I may be wrong but if an invading army bursts into someone's home carrying guns etc,I think that person has every right to take whatever action he wants to in his defense? The Palestinian story is that the Israeli soldiers tried to blow up what they considered to be a bomb making factory but screwed it up.There are reports in today's papers that the Israelis are demolishing houses with bulldozers while the inhabiting families cower inside. None of this can be corroberated at the moment because the Israeli soldiers are shooting reporters that try to enter the area, "for their own protection" that's good, shooting people that try to enter the area to protect them from being shot :) Everyone is asking what are they trying to hide, in a week or so, when reporters manage to get in, the world will be horrified, probably similar to what it saw when Sharon was responsible for the slaughter of pregnant women in the refugee camps

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Old Post 04-10-02 16:15 #
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Well, I did ask how the press will justify the latest palestine attacks. You answered. Thanks for that ;)
There was also another bomb attack. Again I am sure the press will that explain as well.

Even so we will never agree on this issue, we both may be able to agree that in war time and after the "truth" is written by the victor.

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Old Post 04-10-02 20:32 #
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