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fodders
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In 3 tv interviews with 3 different Israeli members of the government yesterday, all 3 were saying that their actions had eliminated the threat of suicide bombings etc already, 2 of the interviewers distinctly said"I am sure you cannot say that in only 3 days since last attack, surely all you are doing is creating more potential bombers?" To be told in quite strong language that the action the Israel government was doing was the only way to ensure no more bombings, well all 3 have been proved wrong now.

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Old Post 04-10-02 21:26 #
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dsm
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Isn't it kinda strange? Sharon was elected because he promised to put an end to suicide bombers, yet all he's done so far is to make more Palestineans blow themselves and other people up.

It seems to me that since Sharon was elected, many more bombing raids have taken place than with Ehud Barak.

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Old Post 04-10-02 23:29 #
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fodders
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The sadder truth is, that during the talks with Arafat and Barak, things were moving along, albeit slowly, but who was campaigning to be elected Prime Minister? SHARON, and as part of his "I am showing people that I am a hard man concerning the Palestinians", he went to the al-Aqsa Mosque. Muslims revere the site as the Noble Sanctuary. They believe it's where the prophet Mohammed ascended to heaven. The Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa mosque are built on the site, considered to be the third holiest in Islam. Ariel Sharon walked on the holy ground accompanied by hundreds of armed soldiers. Many say that was the spark that ignited the Palestinian uprising.
Sept. 28 The ensuing rock throwing by outraged Palestinians was greeted by gunfire, 7 Palestinians dead and 200 wounded. That was the birth of the suicide bombings and the end of peace negotiations on the Palestinian side I think

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 04-10-02 23:55 #
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dsm
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Yeah, I did get the impression that Barak was a nice guy - and now I hear that some cocksuckin' war embracing fanatic assasinated him!
Great move arsehole! If Barak really was working to get the peace up and runnin' then this dope who shot him just got added to my "black list" >:-[

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Old Post 04-11-02 00:01 #
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fodders
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Are you sure you do not mean Yitzhak Rabin?http://www.us-israel.org/images/rabin.jpg Barak seems to be alive as yet :)http://abcnews.go.com/media/World/images/ap_ehud_barak_bio.jpg

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 04-11-02 00:17 #
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fodders
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In the news tonight, Israel admitted accidentally shooting a MONK at the church in Bethlehem today 25 fucking times,that's some accident!

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 04-11-02 02:29 #
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dsm
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fodders said:
Are you sure you do not mean Yitzhak Rabin?http://www.us-israel.org/images/rabin.jpg Barak seems to be alive as yet :)http://abcnews.go.com/media/World/images/ap_ehud_barak_bio.jpg

Yeah, yeah, my bad, it WAS Yitzhak Rabin, I'm sorry.

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Old Post 04-11-02 09:11 #
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Scientist
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Phoenix said:

Yep, that actually kinda proves my point. Thanks for your post. "inequality between jews and that Palestines" those poor palestines. "The jews own amost everything in Isreal", I take it jews still can't have it all. "rich Jews" can be blown up.
LOL and you wonder why there wont be piece in this region?


What do you mean "proves my point"!

Are you saying it is good jews and Palestines are not treated equal?
Are you saying that I said it is good to blow up rich poeple?

First of all I'm against anyone being blown up. I just meant to explain why people are being blown up.

You want the jews to have Israel intirely and all the other to just disappear!
Muslims have a history is Isreal to you know. Form the piont of religion jews Muslims and Christians have a right to be in Isreal, not just the jews.

You say jews have the right to own Israel because their forefathers were driven out by the Romans.
Well if you own a land when your driven out:
America should be given to the Indians,
Australia to the Aborigionals,
Israel to the people of Kanašn,
ect ect, the entire world can be redistributed!

It does not work this way. The truth is jews and muslims in Israel will have to find a way to live in Israel together as equals.

Old Post 04-11-02 12:10 #
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dsm
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Scientist said:
It does not work this way. The truth is jews and muslims in Israel will have to find a way to live in Israel together as equals.

Yeah, but then some people claim that Israel isn't big enough to house both peoples...
Question is whether that's true or not.

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Old Post 04-11-02 13:13 #
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well, lots of people have died, so there should be more room for everyone now.

Old Post 04-11-02 14:38 #
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Phoenix
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Scientist said:

What do you mean "proves my point"!

Are you saying it is good jews and Palestines are not treated equal?
Are you saying that I said it is good to blow up rich poeple?

First of all I'm against anyone being blown up. I just meant to explain why people are being blown up.

You want the jews to have Israel intirely and all the other to just disappear!
Muslims have a history is Isreal to you know. Form the piont of religion jews Muslims and Christians have a right to be in Isreal, not just the jews.

You say jews have the right to own Israel because their forefathers were driven out by the Romans.
Well if you own a land when your driven out:
America should be given to the Indians,
Australia to the Aborigionals,
Israel to the people of Kanašn,
ect ect, the entire world can be redistributed!

It does not work this way. The truth is jews and muslims in Israel will have to find a way to live in Israel together as equals.


Yes, it does not. So why do you expect the Isrealies to give land to the palestines. Your train of thought works both ways. If you agree the First Nations have no claims to America, neither than has palestines to whatever they think it's owed to them.

As for your truth, the Middle East has been in wars for thousand of years, only liberal pacifists would realistically 'hope' for actual piece.

Muslims do have a history in the Middle East and Isreal. No shit. So do Christians btw, neither should be proud in the roles they displayed.

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Old Post 04-11-02 15:09 #
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Phoenix said:

only liberal pacifists would realistically 'hope' for actual piece.


I think we agree on the fact that no party has all the right to the land and the other has no right to the land.
So there are 3 options:

-jews get Israel and the rest gets lost
-Palestines get Isreal and rest gets lost
-All parties live together in Israel

All three aren't very realistic at this point.

I wish they could live in peace.
Well, I quess that makes me a liberal pacifist.

You want the jews to get Israel the rest to go away.
Well, I quess that makes you a zionist.

The fact is, there is no right answer to our question. We can call eachother names, but it is not going to help.

Old Post 04-11-02 16:02 #
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Phoenix
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Scientist said:

You want the jews to get Israel the rest to go away.
Well, I quess that makes you a zionist.

The fact is, there is no right answer to our question. We can call eachother names, but it is not going to help.


Yes, I said that from the beginning I am bias, not sure now what a zionist is, but could be true. Also being a liberal or a pacifist is not a name per se, well to me anyway, they are people's make up.
And you got your facts right, there seem to be no realistic solution, well at least that I know of.

But when I read your post, I was reminded that I live in a country where I can utter my opinions, not get banned or shot or have to be afrait the police will pick me up. ;)

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Old Post 04-11-02 16:26 #
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dr_st
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dsm said:

Yeah, but then some people claim that Israel isn't big enough to house both peoples...
Question is whether that's true or not.



dsm, Israel isn't even big enough to host all the jews in the world, should they decide to come and live there.

Israel is about 500 kilometers long and maybe 100 kilometers wide at its widest point (that including Judea and Samaria, the territories so many claim shouldn't even belong to Israel).

You decide.

Old Post 04-11-02 20:33 #
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Scientist
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Phoenix said:

Yes, I said that from the beginning I am bias, not sure now what a zionist is, but could be true. Also being a liberal or a pacifist is not a name per se, well to me anyway, they are people's make up.
And you got your facts right, there seem to be no realistic solution, well at least that I know of.


It is nice to see that two biased people like us can get to some agreement. That at least must prove something.

catch ye later.

Old Post 04-11-02 23:22 #
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Danarchy
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I SO wish I was God.

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Old Post 04-11-02 23:25 #
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Then you must trully hate yourself and want to die.

Old Post 04-11-02 23:35 #
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Danarchy
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Scientist said:
Then you must trully hate yourself and want to die.

Hmmm...good point.

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Old Post 04-12-02 03:11 #
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Rellik
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How is it that Israeli's can be so stupid as to think things will get better by destroying what litle the Palestinians have left? How can they justify destroying all the Palistinian police stations and governemnt biuldings? Palestine can't have a functioning government now as the Israeli's have once again made sure that the infrastructure is gone. All Israeli's have done is shoved a whole lot more people that much closer to "Martyrdom".

Israeli's must be stupid, I mean now more than ever Palestinians have nothing to lose.... Personally I think the solution is easy. Take away all the economic freebies the world has been showering on Israel. They've made their bed, let them lie in it. My brother was almost on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, but I have no mercy for Israel. They're nothing but globally financed bullies who can dish it out, but can't take it. Fuck em, let em rot.

:)

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Old Post 04-12-02 05:39 #
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dr_st
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Rellik said:
How is it that Israeli's can be so stupid as to think things will get better by destroying what litle the Palestinians have left? How can they justify destroying all the Palistinian police stations and governemnt biuldings? Palestine can't have a functioning government now as the Israeli's have once again made sure that the infrastructure is gone. All Israeli's have done is shoved a whole lot more people that much closer to "Martyrdom".

Israeli's must be stupid, I mean now more than ever Palestinians have nothing to lose.... Personally I think the solution is easy. Take away all the economic freebies the world has been showering on Israel. They've made their bed, let them lie in it. My brother was almost on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, but I have no mercy for Israel. They're nothing but globally financed bullies who can dish it out, but can't take it. Fuck em, let em rot.

:)



Stupidity cannot be concealed.

Old Post 04-12-02 11:41 #
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Danarchy
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dr_st said:


Stupidity cannot be concealed.


*BZZT* WRONG!

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Old Post 04-12-02 19:14 #
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IMJack
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How will this affect things?

I shall now abandon this topic to the flames. Good day.

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Old Post 04-16-02 20:35 #
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dsm
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IMJack said:
How will this affect things?

I shall now abandon this topic to the flames. Good day.


Bah, another scientific theory - it'll be proved wrong some day.

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Old Post 04-16-02 20:43 #
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Zaldron
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IMJack said:
How will this affect things?

I shall now abandon this topic to the flames. Good day.


Funny. I always thought the same. Location, location, location.

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Old Post 04-16-02 20:53 #
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Danarchy
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IMJack said:
How will this affect things?

I shall now abandon this topic to the flames. Good day.


Um...this is NEWS?

Of course they are related...WE'RE ALL MONKEYS!

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Old Post 04-17-02 01:59 #
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fodders
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On April 3, 2002, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) launched a major military operation in the Jenin refugee camp, home to some fourteen thousand Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of them civilians. The Israelis' expressed aim was to capture or kill Palestinian militants responsible for suicide bombings and other attacks that have killed more than seventy Israeli and other civilians since March 2002. The IDF military incursion into the Jenin refugee camp was carried out on an unprecedented scale compared to other military operations mounted by the IDF since the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict began in September 2000.

The presence of armed Palestinian militants inside Jenin refugee camp, and the preparations made by those armed Palestinian militants in anticipation of the IDF incursion, does not detract from the IDF's obligation under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid harm to civilians. Israel also has a legal duty to ensure that its attacks on legitimate military targets did not cause disproportionate harm to civilians. Unfortunately, these obligations were not met. Human Rights Watch's research demonstrates that, during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes.

Due to the dense urban setting of the refugee camp, fighters and civilians were never at great distances. Civilian residents of the camp described days of sustained missile fire from helicopters hitting their houses. Some residents were forced to flee from house to house seeking shelter, while others were trapped by the fighting, unable to escape to safety, and were threatened by a curfew that the IDF enforced with lethal force, using sniper fire. Human Rights Watch documented instances in which soldiers converted civilian houses into military positions, and confined the inhabitants to a single room. In other instances, civilians who attempted to flee were expressly told by IDF soldiers that they should return to their homes.

Despite these close quarters, the IDF had a legal duty to distinguish civilians from military targets. At times, however, IDF military attacks were indiscriminate, failing to make this distinction. Firing was particularly indiscriminate on the morning of April 6, when missiles were launched from helicopters, catching many sleeping civilians unaware. One woman was killed by helicopter fire during that attack; a four-year-old child in another part of the town was injured when a missile hit the house where she was sleeping. Both were buildings housing only civilians, with no fighters in the immediate vicinity.

The IDF used armored bulldozers to demolish residents' homes. The apparent purpose was to clear paths through Jenin's narrow and winding alleys to enable their tanks and other heavy weaponry to penetrate the camp interior, particularly since some of these had evidently been booby-trapped. However, particularly in the Hawashin district, the destruction extended well beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighters, and was vastly disproportionate to the military objectives pursued. The damage to Jenin camp by missile and tank fire and bulldozer destruction has shocked many observers. At least 140 buildings-most of them multi-family dwellings-were completely destroyed in the camp, and severe damage caused to more than 200 others has rendered them uninhabitable or unsafe. An estimated 4,000 people, more than a quarter of the population of the camp, were rendered homeless because of this destruction. Serious damage was also done to the water, sewage and electrical infrastructure of the camp. More than one hundred of the 140 completely destroyed buildings were in Hawashin district. In contrast to other parts of the camp where bulldozers were used to widen streets, the IDF razed the entire Hawashin district, where on April 9 thirteen IDF soldiers were killed in an ambush by Palestinian militants. Establishing whether this extensive destruction so exceeded military necessity as to constitute wanton destruction-or a war crime-should be one of the highest priorities for the United Nations fact-finding mission.

The harm from this destruction was aggravated by the inadequate warning given to civilian residents. Although warnings were issued on multiple occasions by the IDF, many civilians only learned of the risk as bulldozers began to crush their houses. Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year-old paralyzed man, was killed when the IDF bulldozed his home on top of him, refusing to allow his relatives the time to remove him from the home. Sixty-five-year-old Muhammad Abu Saba`a had to plead with an IDF bulldozer operator to stop demolishing his home while his family remained inside; when he returned to his half-demolished home, he was shot dead by an Israeli soldier.

Human Rights Watch has confirmed that at least fifty-two Palestinians were killed as a result of IDF operations in Jenin. This figure may rise as rescue and investigative work proceeds, and as family members detained by Israel are located or released. Due to the low number of people reported missing, Human Rights Watch does not expect this figure to increase substantially. At least twenty-two of those confirmed dead were civilians, including children, physically disabled, and elderly people. At least twenty-seven of those confirmed dead were suspected to have been armed Palestinians belonging to movements such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades. Some were members of the Palestinian Authority's (PA) National Security Forces or other branches of the PA police and security forces. Human Rights watch was unable to determine conclusively the status of the remaining three killed, among the cases documented.

Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international humanitarian law. Among the civilian deaths were those of Kamal Zgheir, a fifty-seven-year-old wheelchair-bound man who was shot and run over by a tank on a major road outside the camp on April 10, even though he had a white flag attached to his wheelchair; fifty-eight year old Mariam Wishahi, killed by a missile in her home on April 6 just hours after her unarmed son was shot in the street; Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year old paralyzed man who was crushed in the rubble of his home on April 7 despite his family's pleas to be allowed to remove him; and fourteen-year-old Faris Zaiban, who was killed by fire from an IDF armored car as he went to buy groceries when the IDF-imposed curfew was temporarily lifted on April 11.

Some of the cases documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to summary executions, a clear war crime, such as the shooting of Jamal al-Sabbagh on April 6. Al-Sabbagh was shot to death while directly under the control of the IDF: he was obeying orders to strip off his clothes. In at least one case, IDF soldiers unlawfully killed a wounded Palestinian, Munthir al-Haj, who was no longer carrying a weapon, his arms were reportedly broken, and he was taking no active part in the fighting.

Throughout the incursion, IDF soldiers used Palestinian civilians to protect them from danger, deploying them as "human shields" and forcing them to perform dangerous work. Human Rights Watch received many separate and credible testimonies that Palestinians were placed in vulnerable positions to protect IDF soldiers from gunfire or attack. IDF soldiers forced these Palestinians to stand for extended periods in front of exposed IDF positions, or made them accompany the soldiers as they moved from house to house. Kamal Tawalbi, the father of fourteen children, described how soldiers kept him and his fourteen-year-old son for three hours in the line of fire, using his and his son's shoulders to rest their rifles as they fired. IDF soldiers forced a sixty-five-year-old woman was forced to stand on a rooftop in front of an IDF position in the middle of a helicopter battle.

As in prior IDF operations, soldiers forced Palestinians, sometimes at gunpoint, to accompany IDF troops during their searches of homes, to enter homes, to open doors, and to perform other potentially dangerous tasks. In Jenin, such coerced use of civilians was a widespread practice; in virtually every case in which IDF soldiers entered civilian homes, residents told Human Rights Watch that IDF soldiers were accompanied by Palestinian civilians who were participating under duress. The forced use of civilians during military operations is a serious violation of the laws of war, as it exposes civilians to direct risk of death or serious injury.

Human Rights Watch has so far found no evidence that Palestinian gunmen forced Palestinian civilians to serve as human shields during the attack. But Palestinian gunmen did endanger Palestinian civilians in the camp by using it as a base for planning and launching attacks, using indiscriminate tactics such as planting improvised explosive devices within the camp, and intermingling with the civilian population during armed conflict, and, in some cases, to avoid apprehension by Israeli forces.

During "Operation Defensive Shield," the IDF blocked the passage of emergency medical vehicles and personnel to Jenin refugee camp for eleven days, from April 4 to April 15. During this period, injured combatants and civilians in the camp as well as the sick had no access to emergency medical treatment. The functioning of ambulances and hospitals in Jenin city was severely circumscribed, and ambulances were repeatedly fired upon by IDF soldiers. Farwa Jammal, a uniformed nurse, was killed by IDF fire while treating an injured civilian. In at least two cases, injured civilians died without access to medical treatment. Direct attacks on medical personnel and the denial of access to medical care for the wounded constitute serious violations of the laws of war.

During the period that the IDF directly controlled Jenin camp, the Israeli authorities were obliged under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to protect camp civilians from the dangers arising from hostilities, and to ensure to the maximum extent possible under the circumstances that the civilian population had access to food and medical supplies. In practice, however, the IDF prevented humanitarian organizations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, from gaining access to the camp and its civilian inhabitants-despite the great humanitarian need. This blockage continued from April 11 to 15, after the majority of armed Palestinians had surrendered. Human Rights Watch investigated and found no evidence to sustain reports that the IDF had removed bodies from the refugee camp for burial in mass graves.

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-05-02 01:00 #
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nxn
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the_Danarchist said:

*BZZT* WRONG!


yeah, doomboy posts less, concealing it pretty well.

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Old Post 05-05-02 01:27 #
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So what are you saying?
That report was all over the news.

Sharon will also meet Bush, any comments on that?

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Old Post 05-06-02 01:54 #
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fodders
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I am saying that the Zionists still control Israel and they can murder and ignore all the rules of war and human and humane rights, and because America is up their ass, no one can do anything about it.
He is going to be told to start implementing the Mitchell agreement, and he is going to try to blacken Arafat's name with forged docs

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-06-02 01:56 #
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Spike
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Bottom line - religion brings conflict, conflict brings death and, dontchaknow, that's just bad.
Beware the dark side you must, mmmm etc.

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Old Post 05-06-02 06:28 #
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