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Enjay
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Meh! Fire the lot of them and bring on a new, dynamic team with a record for getting good games done quickly. What's George Broussard doing these days?

Old Post 04-03-13 16:35 #
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schwerpunk
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[EDIT: sniped]

At this point, I'm not at all attached to the Doom name - at least as it pertains to new entries. Name it 'Space Baddies Want to Kill Your Bunny' for all I flipping care. Just make it fun and flowy, and most of all, different from the military shooters presently saturating the market (don't get me wrong - they're fun, but we have more than enough, imho).

I'm hoping the indie scene will scratch my itch, because id hasn't been doing it for years.

Last edited by schwerpunk on 04-03-13 at 16:43

Old Post 04-03-13 16:37 #
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geo
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Do what Valve does. Just take things from the community so its the best of the best for free and then you pay them as rich or poorly that you want.

Any FPS with the Doom name is destine to be 'bad' because of the 15 year disconnect. Mario goes back to something closer to what it was 15 years ago. Sonic does the same. Sure they aren't FPS, but the fact this community is still standing after so long makes me think people don't want something new, they want something familiar, nostalgic with a twist of fresh.

Last edited by geo on 04-03-13 at 16:50

Old Post 04-03-13 16:42 #
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Caffeine Freak
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geo said:
Sure they aren't FPS, but the fact this community is still standing after so long makes me think people don't want something new, they want something familiar, nostalgic with a twist of fresh.


I want something fresh, with a twist of familiar and nostalgic. Screw serving up the same old plate over and over again.

I'm fucking tired of Doom fans who want nothing original or fresh, just the same old Doom game they played in the 90's.

Old Post 04-03-13 17:39 #
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schwerpunk
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I'd like to reply to that, because I feel I'm in both camps: To 'outsiders' (i.e. most gamers) I'm an old school purist luddite, who's wasting his fancy computer on games that run primarily without a graphics card. To many insiders here, I'm a heretical COD fan mainstreamfag who thinks Brutal Doom is one of the best things to happen to Doom since ZDoom itself. (I exaggerate both these positions for effect.) Luckily, there are markets for both tendencies. One difference being that luddite in me rarely has to pay for his games anymore (thanks for that, guys!).

I'll always love vanilla Doom with a twist. Chocolate Doom being a good example; Chocolate Doom with True Colour being yet another. So yeah, familiar is nice, Vanilla is nice, even Doomclones are nice. But as a genre, I'd prefer new Doom-inspired games limit familiar elements to homages or nods (like Caffeine said, ". . . [S]omething fresh, with a twist of familiar . . ."). One of the things that made id so great back in the day was their ability to grab what was relevant during their time and put it into a derivative yet innovative package. I haven't seen any company impress me with their FPS vision in a looong time.

Really, I'd be happy with more simple shooters in general (e.g. Painkiller, Serious Sam, Martyr (and more recently, Wrack), etc.).

/imho

Last edited by schwerpunk on 04-03-13 at 17:58

Old Post 04-03-13 17:52 #
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Quast
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Caffeine Freak said:
I want something fresh, with a twist of familiar and nostalgic. Screw serving up the same old plate over and over again.

I'm fucking tired of Doom fans who want nothing original or fresh, just the same old Doom game they played in the 90's.


That's a rather interesting opinion to hold considering "the same old plate over and over again" hasn't been brought to the table since 1997. There's a certain charm to the very basic gameplay that doom/quake/build games have that professional developers have not been able to replicate in over 15 years of not even trying.

Old Post 04-03-13 19:05 #
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Caffeine Freak
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Quast said:

That's a rather interesting opinion to hold considering "the same old plate over and over again" hasn't been brought to the table since 1997. There's a certain charm to the very basic gameplay that doom/quake/build games have that professional developers have not been able to replicate in over 15 years of not even trying.



I really don't know what the significance of the year 1997 is.

Yeah, there's a certain charm to those games. There always will be, but that doesn't mean companies like id shouldn't strive to go beyond that, especially when they have the tech and manpower to do so much more. My point is, Doom 4 doesn't need to be the same game we saw in the early 90's for it to be great, or even for it to be Doom. I've seen plenty of people express sentiments that equate to "just give me the same game as the original Doom, with modern graphics." That's beyond retarded; if you aren't going to bring anything fresh to the table, why even bother?

Old Post 04-03-13 19:42 #
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schwerpunk
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It's not even primarily about the graphics, though. It's about the gameplay. And I'm not talking about mechanics identical to Doom, but a game with simple core mechanics (e.g. hitscans, projectiles, fast movement, etc.(or something else, whatever)) that are expanded upon through the game in a variety of interesting and exciting scenarios, than later can be further spun by mappers and modders. In short, what Doom* did more than what Doom is. Some modern shooters do this, but still too many lose sight of it underneath all the flashy what's-hot-now BS.

A note on graphical fidelity: Personally, I do tend to turn my nose ever-so-slightly up at certain graphically impressive, yet overall unimpressive, games. Games like Journey and Far Cry use their graphics well; they mesh aesthetics and gameplay. The graphics don't even feel like graphics - they're just the artistic vision of the game world. Whereas games like Gears of War (IMHO) don't do as well; it feels like they just had a polygon budget that they could meet, so they kept adding detail until they did. So very impressive graphics tend to make me skeptical, because I wonder where the developers' focus really is. It just isn't necessary. Plus, a game with simpler graphics gives a lot more fiddle room and is easier for modders to work with.

Unfortunately, we won't see many of these selling enough to justify major studios working on them. Which is why my hopes lie now in smaller and independent studios, that can afford to pander to niche audiences that in turn don't expect all the whiz-bang pixel frou-frou that you get from the major studios.

*And the Doom community. Lest we overlook what Doom Builder has done for us.

Old Post 04-03-13 20:17 #
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DoomUK
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Caffeine Freak said:
I've seen plenty of people express sentiments that equate to "just give me the same game as the original Doom, with modern graphics."

The more I think about it, the more I feel it would be a better idea than trying something new - which is something Id aren't very good at.

Don't worry, I haven't been possessed by idSoftware981.

Old Post 04-03-13 20:28 #
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Gez
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Caffeine Freak said:
I really don't know what the significance of the year 1997 is.

Quake II.

(Also Doom 64, Hexen II, and the Quake 1 mission packs Scourge of Armagon and Dissolution of Eternity.)

Old Post 04-03-13 20:51 #
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Hunter_568
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So basically the whole team on Doom 4 is shit? Then we have a real problem on our hands.

Old Post 04-03-13 21:04 #
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Caffeine Freak
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DoomUK said:

The more I think about it, the more I feel it would be a better idea than trying something new



Again, why bother in that case? id, despite what some people remember, DID receive criticism in the 90's for repeatedly returning to the same formulas, wrapped in new games and new engines. Why would they get away with the same thing now?

Last edited by Caffeine Freak on 04-04-13 at 04:08

Old Post 04-03-13 21:39 #
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schwerpunk
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Innovation is great, but RAGE['s gameplay] wasn't innovative. I'd rather they copy their own selves from the past than other successful shooter studios in the present.

Old Post 04-04-13 02:46 #
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Caffeine Freak
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Nope, but there were certain things Rage did well.

I'm not suggesting they 'copy' anyone else, but to a certain extent, it'd be pretty much impossible for them to do anything at this point that hasn't been done somewhere. I'm not saying it has to be completely original.

But again, what would be the point, if after this long, they simply recycled something from their 90's days for Doom 4? Long time fans, new players and critics alike would crucify them for it. I also find it interesting that Quast and others accuse developers of 'not even trying' in the last 15 years, but seem to think it's a better idea for the likes of id to simply take the safe route and do everything they've already done. I mean, what would more qualify as not even trying, actually trying to take things in a new direction(or at least one your company hasn't taken before), or simply doing everything you're already familiar with?

Old Post 04-04-13 04:42 #
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geo
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Caffeine Freak said:


I want something fresh, with a twist of familiar and nostalgic. Screw serving up the same old plate over and over again.

I'm fucking tired of Doom fans who want nothing original or fresh, just the same old Doom game they played in the 90's.



And this is why I don't like Wrack. Same engine (as Skulltag), different coat of paint.

Old Post 04-04-13 05:15 #
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geo
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Caffeine Freak said:
Nope, but there were certain things Rage did well.

I'm not suggesting they 'copy' anyone else, but to a certain extent, it'd be pretty much impossible for them to do anything at this point that hasn't been done somewhere. I'm not saying it has to be completely original.

But again, what would be the point, if after this long, they simply recycled something from their 90's days for Doom 4? Long time fans, new players and critics alike would crucify them for it. I also find it interesting that Quast and others accuse developers of 'not even trying' in the last 15 years, but seem to think it's a better idea for the likes of id to simply take the safe route and do everything they've already done. I mean, what would more qualify as not even trying, actually trying to take things in a new direction(or at least one your company hasn't taken before), or simply doing everything you're already familiar with?



My computer just can't play Rage. It tries but there's soooo much texture popin that other games just don't have. Rage was iD catching up to HL2 or episode 2.

Old Post 04-04-13 05:16 #
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Carnevil
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geo said:


And this is why I don't like Wrack. Same engine (as Skulltag), different coat of paint.


If you're looking for something revolutionary, Wrack isn't for you. (Though I don't really see how you can confuse it with Skulltag.)

However, if this is your mindset:


doom_is_great said:

Honestly, at this point, I could care less about "revolutionary" and these other buzz words that gaming corporations use to woo over gamers and make them think that their game is "the next big thing." Just give me a solid shooter with great action, great graphics, great AI, awesome guns, etc.



... it may be! We just want to do a really solid, fun game that's evolutionary, but not revolutionary. Once we're all done, I think we'll have accomplished exactly that. What we're working on is already worlds better than what we currently have out there.

Revolution is overrated and unsustainable. I can't wait for the gaming industry to mature like the movie industry has. Nobody goes to see a movie because "Wow this is totally new this has never been done before OMFG!" They go because "Wow, this looks like a great movie!" - with "great" being very broad in the sense of aesthetics, action, suspense, drama, great characters, great plot, etc.

Old Post 04-04-13 08:11 #
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You forgot the [/shamelessplug] tag, Carney. :P

Old Post 04-04-13 08:13 #
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Carnevil
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I think that goes without saying with me :P Besides, is that really needed in a post where I said "Wrack isn't for you."? :P

Old Post 04-04-13 09:24 #
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Gez
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geo said:
Wrack. Same engine (as Skulltag)

lolno, unless by "engine" you mean "developer", as in "Rage has the same engine as Wolfenstein 3D".

Old Post 04-04-13 10:45 #
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geo
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Obsidian said:
You forgot the [/shamelessplug] tag, Carney. :P


No I think I do more random plugs for Carn :-) Like how those ads for TRUTH against Cigarettes are like getting cigarettes back on television.

Old Post 04-04-13 15:35 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Carnevil said:
Revolution is overrated and unsustainable. I can't wait for the gaming industry to mature like the movie industry has. Nobody goes to see a movie because "Wow this is totally new this has never been done before OMFG!" They go because "Wow, this looks like a great movie!" - with "great" being very broad in the sense of aesthetics, action, suspense, drama, great characters, great plot, etc.

I definitely agree. I'm not opposed to new concepts and innovative gameplay, but I'm getting a bit tired of games that come up with one new idea, latch onto it, and design the entire game around it instead of using that mechanic alongside an existing formula known to play well. I think a lot of the indie platformers, for example, would be more fun if they worked their gimmicks in with other features already known to work well in the genre.

(This is why Cave Story is one of the few indie games I feel can actually stand with some of the best games ever made, since its only "innovative" gameplay feature is its weapon (de)leveling mechanic. The rest of the game could very well be called a Metroid/Castlevania clone, but obviously that's selling the game short.)

What was this thread about again? Oh, yeah, fire/demote him if he's not doing his job well. Based on that Doom 4 article, it sounds like he isn't.

Old Post 04-05-13 17:40 #
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DoomUK
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Carnevil said:
I can't wait for the gaming industry to mature like the movie industry has. Nobody goes to see a movie because "Wow this is totally new this has never been done before OMFG!" They go because "Wow, this looks like a great movie!" - with "great" being very broad in the sense of aesthetics, action, suspense, drama, great characters, great plot, etc.

Modern Military Shooters serve exactly this purpose (supposedly), along with many other trends that have produced the same game in a different box countless times.

What you call maturing, I call unimaginative.

Old Post 04-05-13 18:18 #
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schwerpunk
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I call it inevitable. :P

Certain studios have cornered their markets, and they're now capitalizing on them. Kind of bro-xploitation popcorn shooter genre. It's never going away, because the bros keep feeding it their wallet contents.

Old Post 04-05-13 18:22 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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DoomUK said:

Modern Military Shooters serve exactly this purpose (supposedly), along with many other trends that have produced the same game in a different box countless times.

What you call maturing, I call unimaginative.


So you honestly believe it's impossible to create a better modern military shooter than Modern Warfare 3, Battlefield 3, or whatever other game you prefer? Or do you just dislike those games/settings?

Old Post 04-05-13 19:33 #
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schwerpunk
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Uh, DoomUK never said that... he never even implied it. Correct me if I'm wrong, DoomUK, but I think you were saying that the modern military shooter (popcorn shooter for short) has been turned into a 'formula,' a sort of winning-combination of financially successful tropes and clichés.

This doesn't mean the prevailing popcorn shooter formula is perfect. It just means it sells.

Old Post 04-05-13 19:39 #
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DoomUK
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schwerpunk said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, DoomUK, but I think you were saying that the modern military shooter (popcorn shooter for short) has been turned into a 'formula,' a sort of winning-combination of financially successful tropes and clichés.

Yes. :p

I've yet to see a MMS that offers anything substantially different than what Battlefield 2 or CoD 4 did, which probably won't change until they stop yielding lots of $$$ - at which point, the aesthetic will be swapped for something else.*

*Much like what happened to the succession of WWII shooters before them, which became similarly stale and formulaic, but were undeniably financially successful in their day.

Old Post 04-05-13 19:50 #
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Carnevil
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DoomUK said:

What you call maturing, I call unimaginative.


I dislike MMS's as much as the next guy here, but that doesn't mean that they're not ridiculously popular. What you call formulaic I think is just a sign that you (and I) don't like the genre. You might find them boring and uninteresting, but if they changed things up to make them more interesting for people like you and I, they'd probably alienate the people who already enjoy those games, will buy them, and don't want them to change radically.

I'm sure there are other genres that you enjoy that you feel that way about. Using myself as an example, I'll probably see Iron Man 3 as soon as it comes out. I sure as hell hope they don't ruin it by trying to do some groundbreaking shit in it. You go to those knowing what you're getting, and any sort of radical deviation from that is likely to evoke feelings of "What the hell were they thinking?!", rather than "What I twist!".


Dragonsbrethren said:

I definitely agree. I'm not opposed to new concepts and innovative gameplay, but I'm getting a bit tired of games that come up with one new idea, latch onto it, and design the entire game around it instead of using that mechanic alongside an existing formula known to play well. I think a lot of the indie platformers, for example, would be more fun if they worked their gimmicks in with other features already known to work well in the genre.


Absolutely. It seems like a lot of these games feel like their gimmick defines their game, and instead of it being there to spice things up, they ride-or-die on it. It's like a chef being like "I know! I'll make an entire three-course meal out of eggplant! No one's ever done that before!" ... yeah, for good reason. Braid, while I did enjoy it quite a bit, was really guilty of this.

It all reminds me of that movie Cloverfield. They shot the whole movie from the perspective of a dude within the movie holding a camera. It was revolutionary! It had never been done before! ... and guess what? It sucked! It felt annoying, gimmicky, and shoehorned. The camera was incredibly shaky (as it would be in the middle of a fucking godzilla attack), and you didn't get good views of the things you wanted to see.

I'm too am not against new concepts and innovation, but when you're sacrificing quality for the sake of novelty, I have a real problem with it.

Old Post 04-05-13 19:59 #
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Gez
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DoomUK said:
succession of WWII shooters

I wonder why they haven't tried to make WW1 shooters. Trench warfare would be the ultimate form of cover-based shooter. :p

Seriously though, the more frequent use of melee weapons, the more colorful uniforms, the more primitive tech -- biplanes, tiny tanks -- and insidious hazards such as combat gases could make an interesting setting for a military shooter. Plus you could have campaigns for both sides of the conflict without having to make Nazi protagonists.

Old Post 04-05-13 20:14 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Gez said:

I wonder why they haven't tried to make WW1 shooters. Trench warfare would be the ultimate form of cover-based shooter. :p


Ace of Spades had this down pretty good during alpha, with the novel mechanic of being able to build your own trench. They went and ruined it by making it a lame class-based TF clone, from what I hear, and the building/destroying aspect fell to the wayside. (No biplanes in either version, though. :( )

I phrased my other post poorly, I was pretty much trying to say the same thing Carn did better. You don't buy Modern Warfare 3 for major innovative changes, you buy it for a new campaign and the little things it does better in multiplayer. There was an article on PC Gamer a while back about "improving" the COD series and it was basically turning it into a whole new game. Long-time fans of a series rarely want to see that.

Old Post 04-05-13 22:00 #
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