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Kontra Kommando
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schwerpunk said:
Idealism is anathema to political realism, KK. Machiavelli would be disappoint. :/


Idealism is a tenet liberalism, and Marxism. They believe in the idealistic world of peace, where every problem is cause by self-interest of capitalists. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the world is inherently at war-prone, and people should be concerned with their own self-interest first and foremost. I don't consider myself libertarian, because I do believe in certain regulations. I would go as far as to call myself center-right.

I don't want to clutter this thread with off topic posts like this, I'm going to start a new thread.

Machiavelli is awesome, so is Hans Morgenthau.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 04-09-13 at 14:57

Old Post 04-09-13 14:42 #
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Kontra Kommando
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schwerpunk said:
So the paper (don't laugh, there are still some decent articles in print media) this morning tells me that NK got yet another verbal smackdown from China, this time not so subtly. Essentially, China is saying that they "won't let" NK seed "chaos" and 'strife' (forget the wording) in their neighbourhood for "selfish gain." This political attack actual helps distract NK from SK and the West, while also reminding them of the true cost of their threats, should they continue to pursue this strategy of attention-getting.

Basically, China is calling out NK's bluff like the West couldn't get away with.



Finally, it's about time China said something.

Old Post 04-09-13 14:46 #
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Vegeta
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Kontra Kommando said:

Shitloads of crap



Morons like you make people from the rest of the world wish that the military assholes at North Corea nuke the hell out of the U.S. I know that fortunately not everyone in the States are like you (yet I'm with Quasar, the U.S. should stop trying to rule the planet as an 80's cartoon villian). Even though I know that war it's as natural as making love, I'm against war.
I'd give a more sophisticated response, but it's not worth to argue with you. Reply me whatever shit you want, I'll not read it.

Old Post 04-09-13 14:56 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Vegeta said:


Emotional appeals farting into the wind.



That's fine lol

Maybe if you had an education, you'd be better at expressing yourself. Instead of out right insulting people you disagree with.

Old Post 04-09-13 14:58 #
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Graf Zahl
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Kontra Kommando said:


That's fine lol




... but hits the nail on its head.

People like you are utterly disgusting and I won't go further into it. You are not worth my time.

Old Post 04-09-13 15:01 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Graf Zahl said:


more one-sided hypocritical polemic ranting

Old Post 04-09-13 15:03 #
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schwerpunk
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Kontra Kommando said:
Idealism is a tenet liberalism, and Marxism. They believe in the idealistic world of peace, where every problem is cause by self-interest of capitalists. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the world is inherently at war-prone, and people should be concerned with their own self-interest first and foremost. I don't consider myself libertarian, because I do believe in certain regulations. I would go as far as to call myself center-right.
I hate to burst your bubble, but conservative thinkers are idealistic, too. (See: Invisible Hand, in economics; "we'll be greeted as liberators," in foreign policy.) Idealism is a tenet of every political philosophy that seeks to impose its own schema onto reality.

Also, stop throwing the term radical at people you disagree with. It's not radical or unrealistic to view war as a power play. That's just realpolitik cutting through the conservative/liberal bullshit.

P.S. no one cares where you fall on the political spectrum, and you should stop caring where other people do as well. It pollutes the discussion and drives it away from ideas and into the more reactionary arena of allegiances.

Old Post 04-09-13 15:10 #
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Kontra Kommando
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No doubt the lot of you disagree with me, but cursing at me doesn't help get your point across. It really makes you look uneducated. You should not personalize things in a debate, you should conduct yourself a professional academic manner. Just because I have stated what I believe in, some of you can't handle it; that makes you intolerant.

Old Post 04-09-13 15:13 #
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Kontra Kommando
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schwerpunk said:
I hate to burst your bubble, but conservative thinkers are idealistic, too. (See: Invisible Hand, in economics; "we'll be greeted as liberators," in foreign policy.) Idealism is a tenet of every political philosophy that seeks to impose its own schema onto reality.

Also, stop throwing the term radical at people you disagree with. It's not radical or unrealistic to view war as a power play. That's just realpolitik cutting through the conservative/liberal bullshit.

P.S. no one cares where you fall on the political spectrum, and you should stop caring where other people do as well. It pollutes the discussion and drives it away from ideas and into the more reactionary arena of allegiances.



You see the problem is you think politics is bullshit. that all of these terms are bullshit as well. It's a social science that should be respected like other branches of academia. Radical is not a bad word, it's a point of view. I'm not attack anyone for their beliefs, I'm just simply identifying them, and bring to their attention "well that's your opinion."

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 04-09-13 at 15:22

Old Post 04-09-13 15:17 #
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schwerpunk
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EDIT: I was replying to the above-above post. Re the above post: I don't think politics is bullshit, necessarily, I just think major far-leaning conservative/liberal schemas are cartoonishly exaggerated and don't reflect political realities. They're wishful thinking.

Better? Okay, back to politics:

I think China's statements towards NK did more than anything the West could've hoped to accomplish. As far as talking them down, but maybe it's too early to tell. Now, if you're looking for war, then China's statements are bad news. The benefit of war in this case being one way out of a shit-tonne of debt, like the 'States is in.

Now, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I'd like to think that the U.S. wouldn't start a war (especially with China, which would be the surest way, lol) simply for the excuse of defaulting on its debts. So you better believe that China is frantically trying to offload that U.S. debt, because before long it won't be worth the paper its printed on.

Old Post 04-09-13 15:19 #
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Kontra Kommando
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schwerpunk said:
EDIT: I was replying to the above-above post. Re the above post: I don't think politics is bullshit, necessarily,

Better? Okay, back to politics:

I think China's statements towards NK did more than anything the West could've hoped to accomplish. As far as talking them down, but maybe it's too early to tell. Now, if you're looking for war, then China's statements are bad news. The benefit of war in this case being one way out of a shit-tonne of debt, like the 'States is in.

Now, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I'd like to think that the U.S. wouldn't start a war (especially with China, which would be the surest way, lol) simply for the excuse of defaulting on its debts. So you better believe that China is frantically trying to offload that U.S. debt, because before long it won't be worth the paper its printed on.



to dismiss politics as a science in a political discussion within itself asserts a belief as a truth. That the state and corporations are inherently bad, and that people are oppressed by "the man". It takes one of the many perspectives, and insists that it is the only truth. Political discussion in cynical layman's terms ignores many important nuances in political discussion.

Right now, the United States and China have mutual interests with one another. China had to control it's vassal, because they knew if the U.S. and South Korea got involved, it would strengthen the U.S.'s control in that area of the world. Nevertheless, i think in the aftermath, (whatever happens) there will be stronger ties between the two countries, while they collaborate in handling the this situation.


Also, I don't think it's cartoonish, just look at how contentiously, people reacted to my posts.

Old Post 04-09-13 15:28 #
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schwerpunk
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I'm not dismissing politics as a science. Don't strawman me, bro! D:

Agreed that the U.S. and China are co-dependant economies. I just hope the U.S. is comfortable playing a more subordinate role than their rhetoric implies.

Old Post 04-09-13 15:30 #
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Kontra Kommando
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schwerpunk said:
I'm not dismissing politics as a science. Don't strawman me, bro! D:


I didn't mean that as something directly at you, just towards the sentiment that many people have that it is. Happens a lot actually, once you start using terms, people start reacting like animals backed into a corner. But no hard feelings, you seem pretty interested in this stuff.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 04-09-13 at 16:55

Old Post 04-09-13 15:34 #
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schwerpunk said:

Agreed that the U.S. and China are co-dependant economies. I just hope the U.S. is comfortable playing a more subordinate role than their rhetoric implies.



However, I wonder what will happen once U.S. companies start implementing low-cost robotic workers. There is actually one being developed called Baxter that cost about 22k; the rough equivalent of the cost of paying a Chinese worker. Right now China has a lot of steam because they can exploit their laborers to the max. But what will happen once technology finally makes them obsolete?

http://live.wsj.com/video/meet-baxt...C4AFB82EF.html#!7748F3CE-F519-4543-BE11-A47C4AFB82EF

Old Post 04-09-13 15:47 #
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Maes
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Kontra Kommando said:
If you believe soldiers are being used as pawns, than that just confirms that you have radical left-wing perspective on that issue. Perspectives do matter, because you are basically stating you opinion on a theory is superior to others. Radical theory has a populist appeal to it, that is undeniable. But it is not the only school of thought. Being cynical about the set up of our society is in fact a Marxist view


Wow that's the worst off-topic shoehorning of Red Scare rhetoric I've seen in a while. It would appear forced and incoherent even in the era of full-blown McCarthyism.

Well, at least I learned that the soldier == pawn perspective is a Marxist one....so I guess pawns in military games don't actually represent soldiers but...proletarians? Now, finally, everything makes sense.

So, I take that you lean towards the more heroic/idealistic view...have you ever actually served in your country's military or plan to do so?

In my experience, pumping conscripts full of heroic and epic glory and warrior honour stories only works well in conscripted or rag-tag militaries (gotta keep those forcibly conscripted or troops made up of convicted felons united, somehow). The so-called Esprit du corps.

I gotta admit that I chanted my fair share of "Let's kill all Turks, liberate Constantinople and bathe ourselves in Albanian and Skopjan blood!" cadences while serving....most did it for the shits n' giggles, but yeah, there was maybe 1 brickhead in every unit that took them too seriously.

However, wherever there's a professional army system where even enlisting (not just military academies) is being offered as a serious career path, the "capitalist" viewpoint takes over. You're no longer a dirty grunt, but a "military professional". You don't just get boot camp and a yell-down from Drill Sgt. Nasty, but you're "trained and specialized" in modern weapons systems. You can't serve in a modern US-like army with the mentality of a WWII conscript hillbilly being issued a broom and a boomstick!

But, YES, even those "noble" soldiers are pawns. YES, they willingly signed a piece of paper that says "The deal is as follows: we say, you do". YES, most of them sought and accept it precisely for this aspect (believe it or not, the military conception of authority can solve a lot of personal problems, or rather, it's a tradeoff that some people may find acceptable at some point in their lives).

OK, YES, even among police and professional enlisted (officers are a special case) there are super-idealists that really seem to buy the whole package, but they are maybe 2-3% of the entire force and usually end up being the butt of the joke among their colleagues, who at best consider them "too fixated", and at worst, dangerous snitchers or extremists.

Last edited by Maes on 04-09-13 at 17:57

Old Post 04-09-13 17:47 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Lol, you're the one that thinks I'm insulting you. I already said "radical", and "marxist" is not a bad word, it's just a way of looking at things. You're just taking it as such. I just trying to figure out what you're talking about, and where you're coming from, so relax dude.


Maes said:

So, I take that you lean towards the more heroic/idealistic view.



Actually, I'm not saying war and solider's job anything at all, just something that is. I never said it was something to be desired, but something that is a part of life. But I also do not take a cynical view that soldiers are pawns necessarily, they have a degree of self-interest that drives them as well.

I never stated that I had any kind of ideal, I just stated my observations of the world.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 04-09-13 at 18:07

Old Post 04-09-13 17:55 #
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Maes
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Kontra Kommando said:
Lol, you're the one that thinks I'm insulting you. I already said "radical", and "marxist" is not a bad word, it's just a way of looking at things. You're just taking it as such. I just trying to figure out what you're talking about, and where you're coming from, so relax dude.


And you're the one that thinks that people think you insulted them ;-)

I just said that you're trying to "disarm" posters by shoehorning vague insinuations of their viewpoints being Marxist or Radical or whatever, even when that doesn't seem relevant at all, perhaps hoping to elicit an "Eww, me, Marxist? Never!" reaction, thus insta-ending any and all topics.

I never said I felt insulted by, but just that you were shoehorning Marxism or Radicalism in (at a first glance) unrelated topic. E.g., you're the first one I heard from that viewing soldiers as pawns is a Marxist or Radical viewpoint. AFAIK, a pawn has always been an abstraction for a military unit in general in war games and maps, and, metaphorically speaking, for any agent. And soldiers are expected to behave like, well, pawns. Maybe "intelligent" ones, maybe able to think for themselves or take some decisions, but still controllable by the one(s) playing the game.

Liberally quoting Heinlein here, on the nature of military and politics:



It's never a soldier's business to decide when or where or how—or why—he fights; that belongs to the statesmen and the generals. The statesmen decide why and how much; the generals take it from there and tell us where and when and how. We supply the violence; other people—'older and wiser heads,' as they say—supply the control. Which is as it should be.



Makes it abundantly clear what the purpose of the soldier is, no? And Heinlein was hardly a Marxist ;-)



Of course, the Marxian definition of value is ridiculous. All the work one cares to add willl not turn a mud pie into an apple tart; it remains a mud pie, value zero. By corollary, unskillful work can easily subtract value; an untalented cook can turn wholesome dough and fresh green apples, valuable already, into an inedible mess, value zero. Conversely, a great chef can fashion of those same materials a confection of greater value than a commonplace apple tart, with no more effort than an ordinary cook uses to prepare an ordinary sweet. These kitchen illustrations demolish the Marxian theory of value - the fallacy from which the entire magnificent fraud of communism derives - and to illustrate the truth of the common-sense defintion as measured in terms of use.

Old Post 04-09-13 18:06 #
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schwerpunk
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EDIT: Dang, I got sniped and totally shown up by Maes.

I think your practice of labelling 'where people come from' runs counter to the objective of having an informed, academic discussion (as you put it), KK. Your insistence on naming every position that even smells of marxism, liberalism, conservatism, etc. smacks of a poli-sci student still wet behind the ears and all-too-eager to prove themselves.

I'm not saying you're a n00b, but if you continue trying to pigeon-hole people that come to talk with you, 1) you come off sounding like a total n00b; 2), you come off sounding like you have an agenda, and thus are useless for informed discussion; and 3), you turn off people who actually want to have an academic discussion without worrying what to call everyone / everything.

Old Post 04-09-13 18:08 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Maes said:


I just said that you're trying to "disarm" posters by shoehorning vague insinuations of their viewpoints being Marxist or Radical or whatever, even when that doesn't seem relevant at all, perhaps hoping to elicit an "Eww, me, Marxist? Never!" reaction, thus insta-ending any and all topics.




Actually, you're the one making the assumption here. I'm just stating what is, it's like you're insulted by math. Yes, you do have a cynical Marxist point of view, that's fine. You feel as though soldiers are being exploited, as pawns. As though it's all a nefarious set up; that there is no genuine cause to be fought for. I respect that point of view, but knock off the hostile comments.

Old Post 04-09-13 18:17 #
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schwerpunk
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Kontra Kommando said:

Actually, you're the one making the assumption here. I'm just stating what is, it's like you're insulted by math. Yes, you do have a cynical Marxist point of view, that's fine. You feel as though soldiers are being exploited, as pawns. As though it's all a nefarious set up; that there is no genuine cause to be fought for. I respect that point of view, but knock off the hostile comments.


Okay, you have got to be trolling now.

Old Post 04-09-13 18:20 #
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Kontra Kommando
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schwerpunk said:


Okay, you have got to be trolling now.



Whatever, now you're just ANNOYING.

Old Post 04-09-13 18:21 #
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schwerpunk
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Read what you just said to Maes again. Here, I'll help.


Kontra Kommando said:


Whatever, now you're just ANNOYING.



'Actually, you're the one being annoying here. I'm just stating the truth here. Yes, you do have an idealistic Libertarian point of view, that's fine. You feel as though soldiers should be celebrated, as heroes. As though it's all part of manifest destiny; that America's job is to police the world. I respect that point of view, but knock off the hostile comments.'

That's what it feels like when someone takes your words and twists them into absurdity.

Old Post 04-09-13 18:29 #
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Kontra Kommando
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schwerpunk said:
Read what you just said to Maes again. It's straight-up out of crazy-land. Here, I'll help.



'Actually, you're the one being annoying here. I'm just stating the truth here. Yes, you do have an idealistic Libertarian point of view, that's fine. You feel as though soldiers should be celebrated, as heroes. As though it's all part of manifest destiny; that America's job is to police the world. I respect that point of view, but knock off the hostile comments.'

That's what it feels like when someone takes your words and twists them into absurdity.



1. I'm not a Libertarian, I believe in regulated free-markets.

2. I never said they should be celebrated, or viewed cynically. They have purpose, and will continue to have a purpose. They are just a part of society. People are free to join if they would like.

3. Why should the United States be required relinquish it's power? Why should we be exempt from pursuing our own interests?

Old Post 04-09-13 18:37 #
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Maes
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Kinda reminds me of the "No offense, but your a douche"-type of discussions :-)

Edit: Oh goody


Kontra Kommando said:
1. I'm not a Libertarian, I believe in regulated free-markets.


But where does the "free" part end and where does the "regulated" part start?



Kontra Kommando said:
2. I never said they should be celebrated, or viewed cynically. They have purpose, and will continue to have a purpose. They are just a part of society. People are free to join if they would like.


Too many historical exceptions: people have been forced to join armies, and several important fighting corps were not part of any society, but, rather, operated outside of them (e.g. mercenaries), even if typically they swore temporary allegiance to some society in order to find employment. Obviously major modern militaries are still nationalized, so part of the society of their respective countries, but exactly where do PMC (Private Military Contractors) stand, even if they typically have a corporate base in a specific country? And as soon as soldiering became a Good Business, NOT everybody can really freely join in (criteria are far more stringent than you may think, as are employment terms).


Kontra Kommando said:
3. Why should the United States be required relinquish it's power? Why should we be exempt from pursuing our own interests?


And why should anyone be exempt from opposing them? ;-)

Last edited by Maes on 04-09-13 at 18:47

Old Post 04-09-13 18:38 #
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KK, I know 99% of that doesn't apply to you. My point is it doesn't feel good to have your position grossly misinterpreted and simplified. I know you're more complicated than that - we all are. BUt that's exactly what you are (un?)consciously doing here. It makes it REALLY hard to have a good conversation, man. :/

Old Post 04-09-13 18:45 #
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Maes
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schwerpunk said:
It makes it REALLY hard to have a good conversation, man. :/


But it makes for one Hell of a political career foundation. This boy is going places.

Old Post 04-09-13 18:49 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Maes said:

But where does the "free" part end and where does the "regulated" part start?



Whole other topic of discussion that would merit another thread.


Maes said:


Too many historical exceptions: people have been forced to join armies, and several important fighting corps were not part of any society, but, rather, operated outside of them (e.g. mercenaries), even if typically they swore temporary allegiance to some society in order to find employment. Obviously major modern militaries are still nationalized, so part of the society of their respective countries, but exactly where do PMC (Private Military Contractors) stand, even if they typically have a corporate base in a specific country? And as soon as soldiering became a Good Business, NOT everybody can really freely join in (criteria are far more stringent than you may think, as are employment terms).


Who cares? The point I was making is that war is inevitable.

Maes said:

And why should anyone be exempt from opposing them? ;-)


Maybe Greece should have opposed the foreign aid it got from the USA, after WWII. ;-)

Old Post 04-09-13 18:56 #
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Maes
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Kontra Kommando said:
I'm just bullshittin' you, bro.


Kinda like the casino in Leisure Suit Larry, where you could bet $0 on the slot machines: "You can keep playing that way all night long!".

Last edited by Maes on 04-09-13 at 19:09

Old Post 04-09-13 19:03 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Maes said:

Nothing of substance, just vague insults.

Old Post 04-09-13 19:14 #
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Maes
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Kontra Kommando said:
Nothing of insults, just vague substance

Old Post 04-09-13 19:17 #
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