Why do Quake's base levels suck so hard?

hardcore_gamer said:

Its because of the different tech.

yes, that's true.

hardcore_gamer said:

Blah blah blah

This however is not the reason for the maps being Corridor room, corridor room in Quake.

The reason why this is the case is because of the way the Quake 1 and also Quake 2 engine handles it's visplane limits. This actually carries over as far as the Doom3 engine in one way or another. In Quake 1 - 3 you work with this by limiting Vis in your construction. In Quake 1 and 2 specifically, you need to build in this particular way to ensure that "the vis" from the next room doesn't bleed into the vis of the adjacent rooms.

In Doom3's engine there is a similar issue where you need to limit vis. Though unlike Quake it is not the case of a hard limit that need to pass the compiler, but instead based on how much the computer running the game can handle. Instead of building the map to block visibility, you can use visportals which basically work as a window into the next room. You still need to block off around them for them to work, but with some trickery you can actually have them close at will and just end up as a black wall. If you don't use visportals in Doom3 maps, it will render essentially the entire map the entire time.

For early 3D models I thought DF2 was pretty decent all around, except the Civilian NPCs, who all looked like complete ass.

The reason why the textures all look brown is because of the popularity of all that industrial-rock music from that era in the 90s. Similar to the visuals and aesthetics from videos of those kind of bands. Hence the reason why they got Trent Reznor on board. It's a victim of the times I guess. But its probably better than if it came out years later when Limpbizkit was popular. Then it would probably have some kind of wigger themes.

Kontra Kommando said:

The reason why the textures all look brown is because of the popularity of all that industrial-rock music from that era in the 90s. Hence the reason why they got Trent Reznor on board. It's a victim of the times I guess. But its probably better than if it came out years later when Limpbizkit was popular. Then it would probably have some kind of wigger themes.

This is hilarious. I doubt that a music genre somehow limited VGA modes to 256 colours.

Simply put, Doom had a limited palette but didn't have to cater for lighting of Quake's fidelity, necessitating less hues in Quake but more hues of the shades it did have within those 256.

ComicMischief said:

This is hilarious. I doubt that a music genre somehow limited VGA modes to 256 colours.

Simply put, Doom had a limited palette but didn't have to cater for lighting of Quake's fidelity, necessitating less hues in Quake but more hues of the shades it did have within those 256.

Yea, but you can see how they used that kind of art style for the game. Especially if they had trent reznor doing the sound track. Quake had a gritty industrial-factory look; that's what was popular at the time. I obviously wasn't talking about computer hardware or performance; I was talking about the motif of the game.

Clonehunter said:

For early 3D models I thought DF2 was pretty decent all around, except the Civilian NPCs, who all looked like complete ass.

Maybe it's because I didn't play it back then, but I think everything in that game looks like complete ass. The first FPS with decent modeled human enemies was GoldenEye, IMO. They're a bit blocky, but they have good proportions, great animation, and competent texturing (on the N64, no less) for the time.

Dragonsbrethren said:

Maybe it's because I didn't play it back then, but I think everything in that game looks like complete ass. The first FPS with decent modeled human enemies was GoldenEye, IMO. They're a bit blocky, but they have good proportions, great animation, and competent texturing (on the N64, no less) for the time.

I thought the imperials looked well enough, though without any sort of accelerated graphics the game does look naturally shitty in software mode, even more so than other games.

Freedom is like wine: too much of it in one go is bad for you.

Similarly when moving to a more capable engine where -in theory- they could model anything they wanted out of polygons: it's hard to get everything right the first time, to design things in the best possible way and in general, not having some of the time/design shortcuts of a 2.5D engine: you have to think literally of everything and in every direction.

This is in fact so much of a problem that it practically occurs in EVERY fully 3D FPS engine: they are so limitless that designing a architecture even of the same complexity as Doom in them requires way too much time, and in fact it's so hard that even levels for modern AAA titles designed by talended well-paid individuals are relatively bland, and rely more on prefabs and decorations, than actual architecture.

Designing a unique map with the level of detail afforded by modern hardware/software is indeed very difficult without prefabs. We are no longer burdened by strict limitations, yet we're burdened by increasing demands for detail. On a related note, a lot of games across all genres are beginning to look similar, and that's at least partly due to do a tendency toward photorealism. The bland layouts in a lot of modern games is a side effect of this, not to mention younger gamers are frequently less familiar with the more fantastical/abstract designs of older games, and thus have no reason to protest.

I personally liked the base levels; they represented our technology and our curiosity for exploring the unknown, a type of feel I later found in the Half Life series but originally experienced in Quake.

As for the base enemies actually staying in the bases, I liked that. Conversely, however, I would have liked the 2nd episode on to include the odd demon monster to show them coming over here.

The original Quake 1 tech bases aren't that good in doom, or maybe you are making a comparision between Doom base and Quake base style, they're so different that it can't make sense, plus, doom has a lot of tech bases, and Quake just go some few of them, but, they're not bad, i like them, but you know what is better than those Quake 1 base? the Scourge of Armagon base levels, they look like way better and more realistic if you mean by that, the engine is more worked than the first Quake and etc.

Quake got it's own style and it fits on the game, dark brown-yellow-thingy base and crypts or castles makes a great game like Quake.

Ledillman said:

you know what is better than those Quake 1 base?

Yes, I do. It's the Hexen 2 base levels. Particularly the Roman hub and Blackmarsh. Built on the same engine but with less brown and more candy.

188DarkRevived said:

Perhaps the reason might have been because ID employees established a firm deadline for the release date

Except that's literally the exact opposite of what actually happened.

From Masters of Doom:

The guys at id responded by resenting both Romero and Carmack. Romero
was off being a rock god. Carmack was off being a tech god. And everyone
else was left out to dry. Something had to change. Months were passing, and
Carmack’s engine was nowhere close to being done. The Wolfenstein engine
had taken only a couple of months. Doom had taken six. Already Quake’s
engine was passing a half year of development with no end in sight. Forget
about the promised release date of Christmas 1995, they resolved. From now
on if people wanted to know the completion date of an id game, the reply was
“When it’s done!”

Quake 1 is an *inconsistent* game because of internal political strife within the team that essentially destroyed its creative direction (and ended in Romero's departure). That's why you get such a bizarre mixture of tech bases, medieval castles and whatnot. In terms of why the levels suck, I'd guess it's a mixture of: 1) the same lack of creative direction, on a smaller scale, 2) the fact that it was a completely new technology that required editing in a completely new way, 3) levels that probably couldn't be too complex because the computers of the day could barely run Quake at the time.

188DarkRevived said:

Particularly the Roman hub and Blackmarsh.

The Roman hub is the worst, IMO. It's very blocky and abstract. I think it was rushed.

Da Werecat said:

The Roman hub is the worst, IMO. It's very blocky and abstract. I think it was rushed.

I had this opinion about the Egyptian hub, despite the walls having awesome texture designs portraying Anubis and the pharaohs.
I guess I chose the Roman hub over the Egyptian one because it played very well in multiplayer deathmatch.

@Fraggle: I stand corrected this time, because I can't argue against something which was published as a biography through direct interviews.

I thought Hexen 2 was good, except for one particular, tiny part.


I think we all know which part I mean...

Ichor said:

I thought Hexen 2 was good, except for one particular, tiny part.
I think we all know which part I mean...

Let me guess... The part where Eidolon finally shows up and doesn't have any serpent to ride?
Yeah, that part disappointed me too, while everything else was so neat.

188DarkRevived said:

Let me guess... The part where Eidolon finally shows up and doesn't have any serpent to ride?
Yeah, that part disappointed me too, while everything else was so neat.

Not like Korax had one either. THough, there was the Heresiarch I guess... And who knows, maybe Korax rode him from time to time, we don't know.

188DarkRevived said:

Let me guess... The part where Eidolon finally shows up and doesn't have any serpent to ride?
Yeah, that part disappointed me too, while everything else was so neat.

No. I mean this:

Augh god, Ichor. Stop bringing up bad memories.

I think Quake is good with these brown textures. A bit too much brown, but it has a unique style. "Dark technology" or whatever. I like it.

Level design has no problems.

Ichor said:

No. I mean this:

(Dreaded Hexen 2 puzzle)

Oh, for FUCK'S SAKE. This puzzle ALONE made me stop playing the game forever, and I was having so much fun with it. I tried and tried and never got it down, then abandoned the game.

No reason not to noclip through it all.

Isn't there a clue somewhere? I don't remember exactly, but there should be.

Avoozl said:

No reason not to noclip through it all.

I'm moderately all-or-nothing about that sort of thing, and I know some here will agree. If I can't beat it without cheating, then I abandon the game. I'll use a walkthrough if I'm utterly stuck.

Relating back to the OP and such, I've never thought of Quake's maps as sucky, but I do find the tech maps less engaging than the more hellish ones. Chalk it up to my love of archaic/demonic imagery. But in all fairness, Quake has some excellent tech textures, and despite what some of you have said, I thought the art direction was great, much more provocative than Quake 2's, which visually kind of bores me as the cyber theme is ever present and never really changes.

Da Werecat said:

Isn't there a clue somewhere? I don't remember exactly, but there should be.

There is a clue somewhere on a wall in another map, but the help it provides amounts to somewhere between nada and bupkis.

Clonehunter said:

THough, there was the Heresiarch I guess... And who knows, maybe Korax rode him from time to time, we don't know.

It's the other way around. There is a logical theory/myth about the team at Raven Software originally intending for the ugly Korax monstrosity to be the serpent which should have been ridden by the Heresiarch. This theory makes sense based on the physical attributes of both beasts.
There are a few threads in the archive of this forum to reflect this. I remember participating in them, but it's been so long ago and I'm too lazy to dig for the links. But I know 100% that they're there.


@Ichor: Oh... Now I remember!
*hits self for not remembering such an annoying situation straight away*
Yeah, in fact, this is yet another one of the reasons why I didn't like the Egyptian hub as much as the Roman or the Blackmarsh or the Mesoamerican.
When I played that hub for the first time in my life at the age of 14, I had no choice but to cheat.
Then later on, when I was already 17, I finally got the official walkthrough to prevent me from cheating.

Quake rules, bitches!
=P

188DarkRevived said:

This theory makes sense based on the physical attributes of both beasts.

Also, the ending sequence of Heretic.

Da Werecat said:

Also, the ending sequence of Heretic.

Exactly! That Heresiarch sitting on a throne with a crystal ball in his claws looked very badass! I was really hoping that I would see him as a 3D model in at least one of the Quake-engine sequels. Would've been my favourite model ever...

There used to be a fan-made TC (Total Conversion) in the works for Hexen 2 back in 1999, called "Agent Of Chaos", which was supposed to feature a Heresiarch model. But that project died and never got released.
I was raging.