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Rizera
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Particularly, I don't find it very attractive to discuss such subject in a gaming forum, but as this is not being exactly shown in the international media, I thought I could bring this to you.

Brazil has had a huge history of corruption, social distortions and inequalities. Even though it is a "democratic" republic, there have always been absurd laws and distortion to level which are hard to believe.

Just as an example, converting the currency to dollars, the minimum wage in Brazil is US$ 340.
Salary for a public teacher: US$400.
Salary for a military cop: US$600.
Salary for a politician (the most basic one): starting from US$6,000.

Not only that, but Brazilian people always have had a history of being apathetic and easy to manipulate. Up to this very day.

Brazilian people gathered together and started to march the streets. The riots were growing day by day, and of course the police repression was very harsh, fact which only brought more people to the streets. Last night, more than one million people from different cities all around the country protested together asking for a change.

Really good CNN report on the riots:

What's REALLY behind the Brazilian riots
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-988431

What is happening in Brazil. 4:22 and on is quite impressive:


Best pictures of the ongoing riots in 06/17/2013:
http://www.grunz.com.br/fotos-incri...-em-tempo-real/

I think it also should be brought to attention that the people marching are mostly middle class, not the poorest ones. Protesting for a fairer country between the classes. The people claim that spending US$17 billion on the World Cup, and US$16 billion on the Olympics, while poor people die in hospitals which look like war zones, and/or suffer to hunger in slums should not be tolerated.

Myself, as a Brazilian, I can tell that this is the most awaited and the best moment of my life as a Brazilian citizen, and I hope that we can have a brilliant future, as well as to inspire all other hugely explored countries to the same (Angola, Turkey, Bahrain, Zimbabwe, Hong Kong, just to name a few).

Thanks for listening!

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Last edited by Rizera on 06-18-13 at 06:37

Old Post 06-18-13 06:20 #
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Ralphis
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Best of luck, stay safe, and don't put even more oppressive people in power!

Old Post 06-18-13 06:57 #
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Bouncy
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Relevant to the situation at hand. D:

hope things turn out okay.

Old Post 06-18-13 08:57 #
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Maes
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Rizera said:
Just as an example, converting the currency to dollars, the minimum wage in Brazil is US$ 340.
Salary for a public teacher: US$400.
Salary for a military cop: US$600.
Salary for a politician (the most basic one): starting from US$6,000.



Interesting. That furthers my point of view that a ruling elite (the politicians, in this case) needs to rely on a somewhat more numerous "middle class" for bureaucracy and law enforcement (the tribe's "warriors" so to speak), which are granted positions of relative power and authority (obvious for a cop, and sometimes even for a teacher, especially if a permanent one), and a wage that is, symbolically or sometimes effectively, notably above minimum wage, and with "perks" to match. It's also of interest to note how the job of a cop is considered more important and delicate (and hence paid more) than that of a teacher.

BTW, of course the above concept isn't new: it was present already in Plato's Republic since ancient times (Rulers, Warriors, Common People, Slaves), but the tendency is to have everyone below the level of a Ruler pretty much being a slave, with only small (usually temporary or conditional) privileges or concessions still separating one class from the other.

I'm surprised about the salary figures you mention though: they are not all that different than Greece's. I can now see the rational behind e.g. Portuguese migrating to Brazil. At least they speak the same language as the one in a country which -on paper- is richer than them, by now :-/

Old Post 06-18-13 14:33 #
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gggmork
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In theory a rebellion could grow until the cops (the people from the movie They Live who sold out to the rest of humanity) join it. Then the queen ant will have no soldier ants... oh yeah, nevermind, they're moving to 100% obedient robot enforcement. The Oathkeepers (often featured on Alex Jones' show) are kind of doing this, convincing cops to defend the constitution by refusing to confiscate firearms. Since the elites have unlimited disposable income, they can just up the pay of soldier ants. 500$/hour? Someone will do it. Or much more pessimistically, they can pay with LACK of punishment rather than reward. How about making a law that everyone must give up their first born or a daily torture raffle like the roman colosseum, and pay cops with their exception from such things.

To me, the main useful purpose of a big march/occupy wallstreet/etc is to attract media attention. Its basically a media stunt for spreading whatever desired message... any other media newspaper headliny stunt could work equally well for that. It could be something as stupid as get 10,000 people to all honk the horn on their car for 10 minutes on some agreed time. People would be like WTF, then google it. Right next to an article on "bla riots" there'd be an article with perhaps equal memetic weight "10 minute long horn honk". It'd be interesting/draw attention, then you attach whatever message you want to that media stunt. That's all about spreading information; what to actually do when enough receive that information is another thing.

Everything can be measured in money, so having an elite with mega wealth is a major problem. They can buy all the weapons, all the intelligence, all the anything, and they do monopolize everything. Even if everyone agrees to ignore the value of their currency, the actual wealth/products/physical items of the elite will be measurable in whatever new currency, so they'll still be rich (but at least they'd lose whatever wealth that was stored in that currency rather than physical items). Then I suppose their physical items could be "stolen back" since they were stolen from the masses in the first place. But not when some of those items are weapons.

Recently Adam Kokesh used "shield mutual", which is a very early start up as an alternative legal system, which is quite interesting in the context of what Brad Spangler said about alternate legal systems eventually arresting all the corrupt elites. They help people who are arrested by making phone calls/picketing/annoying/etc the captors. But the mega wealth of the elite come into play here again; they pay for protection by such a business as well, and can probably sway it in their favor since they have the most money.

The selfish gene basically means people aren't evolutionarily programmed to cooperate much, except being altruistic to those who share their own genes/children/grandchildren. That's one of the major problems because people can't really cooperate to all, say, give 10 dollars to one specific tactical purpose, and know they can trust all other individuals. Its the same with buffalo and lions; if only every buffalo agreed to all gang up together against the lions, there'd be no problem anymore. Maybe religion is the best artificial cult like tool to organize people together, but its usually led/hijacked by charlatans.

Old Post 06-18-13 15:50 #
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Glaice
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I am guessing Sgt. Mark IV can tell us more about this since he lives in Brazil if he chimes into the EE section and sees the thread topic.

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Old Post 06-18-13 17:09 #
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Pedro VC
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Tomorrow there will be protests where i live, but i think it's not going to get the proportion of the major ones cause here is the shithole of the shithole.

Old Post 06-18-13 18:29 #
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Quasar
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gggmork said:
IThe Oathkeepers (often featured on Alex Jones' show) are kind of doing this, convincing cops to defend the constitution by refusing to confiscate firearms.

Those guys are an absolute joke, just another arm of the Tea Party. When OWS broke out, they were too busy arguing about the fact the protesters were "dirty liberal hippies" to even discuss the flagrant violations of constitutional rights that were happening. And I didn't hear them get too up-in-arms (tee hee) over Boston, either.

Don't count on a bunch of bible-thumping gay-hating, abortion-outlawing Tea Partiers to come to the defense of your rights. Unless you agree with them 100% ideologically, they don't give two shits about you or what the cops (in their view, rightfully) do to you.

Old Post 06-18-13 18:53 #
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myk
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Rizera said:
Salary for a politician (the most basic one): starting from US$6,000.
That's what top government executives, such as top ministers and the president, earn here in Argentina. The minimum wage is like $542 in dollars. Note though that telling North Americans and Europeans how much you earn in dollars isn't the same as how well you live and your local buying power, which is generally more than the dollar value.

Government salaries tend to compete with business executive salaries, so if executives earn a lot in Brazil don't expect low salaries for politicians.


Last night, more than one million people from different cities all around the country protested together asking for a change.
Yeah, it seems more like protests than riots, with exceptions in groups going at Palácio dos Bandeirantes and the legistalture in Rio, and some burned cars and damaged banks. Passe Livre, the main organization behind the protests, aims for a peaceful protest.


Really good CNN report on the riots:

What's REALLY behind the Brazilian riots
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-988431
If that thinly veiled piece of neoliberal propaganda is a good report I don't want to know what a bad one is!


I think it also should be brought to attention that the people marching are mostly middle class, not the poorest ones. Protesting for a fairer country between the classes. The people claim that spending US$17 billion on the World Cup, and US$16 billion on the Olympics, while poor people die in hospitals which look like war zones, and/or suffer to hunger in slums should not be tolerated.
The protests seem half decent for middle-classed people. Our middle-class protests are about things like being able to stash more dollars under pillows, "some people are poorer and browner than me and might rob or rape me" or about corruption in public sector spending mainly directed at those smellier people. From what I read, though, the PT governments took like 40,000,000 people out of poverty, so part of the protesters probably belong to the new middle class and don't want a different government, just some things changed, and they are helping keep the protests away from what CNN can only dream.


as well as to inspire all other hugely explored countries to the same (Angola, Turkey, Bahrain, Zimbabwe, Hong Kong, just to name a few).
Explored by whom... Christopher Colombus, David Livingstone?!

Old Post 06-18-13 20:04 #
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Kontra Kommando
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myk said:
Explored by whom... Christopher Colombus, David Livingstone?!


Perhaps he meant exploited?

Old Post 06-18-13 20:26 #
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CorSair
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It's like someone gave order for police to quell... no, crush any uprising.

Wish things get better, and preferably, politicians in charge discharged.

Old Post 06-18-13 20:56 #
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Old Post 06-18-13 21:49 #
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Satyr000
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While these large scale riots can be hell for protesters, I'm always glad to see them. Seeing large scale protests poping up all over the place gives me hope. I just wish we would see more of them in the US. It was a real shame to see OWS fizzle out like they did. Though they did need a much broader list of grievances and more focused leadership.

Old Post 06-22-13 04:30 #
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Clonehunter
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See what happens when Max Payne goes to Brazil?

Anyways, those photos offer quite an aerial spectacle. Wonder how it'll end.

Old Post 06-22-13 05:02 #
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GreyGhost
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gggmork said:
Everything can be measured in money, so having an elite with mega wealth is a major problem. They can buy all the weapons, all the intelligence, all the anything, and they do monopolize everything. Even if everyone agrees to ignore the value of their currency, the actual wealth/products/physical items of the elite will be measurable in whatever new currency, so they'll still be rich (but at least they'd lose whatever wealth that was stored in that currency rather than physical items).
A change in currency would render the elite "asset rich, cash poor", and since you can only buy so much loyalty from the 9% with pieces of antique Wedgewood china at some point they'll have to open the war chest and revert to the practices of their robber baron forebears.

Maybe religion is the best artificial cult like tool to organize people together, but its usually led/hijacked by charlatans.
Meh - religions have ALWAYS been led by people who seek to harness the faith/gullibility of others to advance their own agenda. With democracy there's at least the illusion that your choice has influenced events in some small way.

Old Post 06-22-13 06:16 #
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Krispy
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GreyGhost said:
With democracy there's at least the illusion that your choice has influenced events in some small way.


Which is why millions of Americans aren't taking to the streets and tossing tear gas back at the cops.

Old Post 06-22-13 19:27 #
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Krispy said:


Which is why millions of Americans aren't taking to the streets and tossing tear gas back at the cops.



Well, it's also because it's really not that bad here for the most part. Granted, places like Detroit rival cities in Afghanistan in terms of violent crimes and murder. But for the most part, it's not bad. All of the immigrants I talk to say the same, about how much better it is than the 3rd world shit holes they came from. One of my Indian friends, who was born dirt poor in India, is now upper-middle class here. He always expresses how thankful he is to be in the US.

Old Post 06-24-13 17:24 #
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Maes
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Krispy said:
Which is why millions of Americans aren't taking to the streets and tossing tear gas back at the cops.


Democracies can be every bit as oppressive as the worst dictatorships -but throw in that magical "representation" variable, and suddenly you silence almost all reaction.

E.g. a policeman beating you up in a dictatorship == unfree oppression, harsh repression etc.
The very same policeman beating you up just as badly in a democratic country == he's merely enforcing the laws that the majority wants and voted for (including, perhaps, yourself).

A less violent example:

A feudal lord taxing you at a whim == slavery, subjugation and serfdom.
A democratic government overtaxing you at a whim == simply enforcing the economic measures you voted for by electing them.

The implication being that since you're involved in the electoral process, no matter how little, your protests automatically mean nothing (though you have the right to protest...unless you also "voted" against that!) since you too are responsible for those laws being passed, and thus you will have to bear with them down to the bitter end. Suck it down.

With that "representation" story, you can turn almost any protest against the protesters, claiming that it makes no sense to protest against their own policies -which they agreed to by voting for X or for Y.


Kontra Kommando said:
Well, it's also because it's really not that bad here for the most part. Granted, places like Detroit rival cities in Afghanistan in terms of violent crimes and murder. But for the most part, it's not bad. All of the immigrants I talk to say the same, about how much better it is than the 3rd world shit holes they came from. One of my Indian friends, who was born dirt poor in India, is now upper-middle class here. He always expresses how thankful he is to be in the US.


The main difference between the US and their own country is not so much the form of goverment, but other indexes such as economic freedom, equality of opportunity etc. In theory, nothing prevents e.g. an Islamic Khaliffate or an African/Latin American dictatorship to offer the same opportunities and economic freedoms to its citizens as the USA, but in practice that's quite unlikely to happen. Even when politically stable, such regimes tend to be highly theocratic, nepotistic, clientelistic and corrupt, only really being "OK" for the ruling elites and maybe a privileged class of bureaucrats hiding behind red tape.

When people wish for "democracy" in such regimes, the main premise is that somehow election will destroy this stale status quo and allow the poor/the underprivileges to vote their way to equality. In practice, this has never happened, if post-communist countries, most Arab, African & Latin American countries and even Greece are any indication: elections just place a new corrupt elite in power (but this time, with the legitimacy of the popular vote).

Last edited by Maes on 06-24-13 at 18:53

Old Post 06-24-13 18:41 #
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Maes said:
When people wish for "democracy" in such regimes, the main premise is that somehow election will destroy this stale status quo and allow the poor/the underprivileges to vote their way to equality. In practice, this has never happened, if post-communist countries, most Arab, African & Latin American countries and even Greece are any indication: elections just place a new corrupt elite in power (but this time, with the legitimacy of the popular vote).


I tend to agree with Aristotle's theory that governments of states go through constant cycles: How a monarch can become a tyrant; who is then overthrown by what will become an aristocracy; which then devolves into an oligarchy; which is overthrown by the people to set up a democracy, which can devolve into mob rule; which is then united by a great leader who become a monarch, who will become a tyrant.

I guess the "perfect" government for particular states is a right time, right place kind of thing, which is always subject to change.

Old Post 06-24-13 19:29 #
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myk
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Maes said:
When people wish for "democracy" in such regimes, the main premise is that somehow election will destroy this stale status quo and allow the poor/the underprivileges to vote their way to equality. In practice, this has never happened, if post-communist countries, most Arab, African & Latin American countries and even Greece are any indication: elections just place a new corrupt elite in power (but this time, with the legitimacy of the popular vote).
That's like saying medicine only works if it makes you immortal.

It's funny you say "and even Greece" when you're mainly projecting your current pseudodemocratic experience in Greece and it doesn't necessarily apply to other cases, particularly large parts of Latin America, including Brazil. Brazil is relatively independent now and has made some steps in the right direction in recent years, and will show even more promise if their youth makes good use of this opportunity to increase their political participation and the government strengthens its public policy, both which are quite viable in the region, where other countries have taken similar steps in their own ways.

Old Post 06-24-13 19:49 #
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Maes said:

E.g. a policeman beating you up in a dictatorship == unfree oppression, harsh repression etc.
The very same policeman beating you up just as badly in a democratic country == he's merely enforcing the laws that the majority wants and voted for (including, perhaps, yourself).



Like Max Weber said, the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. As a democracy, people give the state the legitimacy to neutralize the malcontents.

Old Post 06-24-13 19:58 #
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Maes
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Politically speaking, modern Greece has more in common with the stereotypical Latin American "Banana Republics" than with what one would call "Western Burgeoise Democracies", that's why I threw it into the lump -I have no problem admitting to that, besides history amply proves it.

Now, I don't know if each and every of the former "Banana Republics" managed to get past that stage -some obviously didn't, some are trying- but certainly when I think political stability and democracy, Latin America is -still- not what my mind jumps at first. I do concede that Brasil is quite advanced though, and probably one of the first to get past its colonial past (the fact that it was subject to a relatively minor colonial power surely helped, but I'm digressing here).

Old Post 06-24-13 20:00 #
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If Brazil can manage to fix it's corruption issues, and release the strangle hold of drug cartels, it can probably become a super power because of it's vast resources.

Also... Monica Santiago for President of Brazil!

Old Post 06-24-13 20:08 #
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Maes
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Kontra Kommando said:
Like Max Weber said, the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. As a democracy, people give the state the legitimacy to neutralize the malcontents.


But that's one monopoly that EVERY kind of state/government actually claims for itself, even -and especially- non-democratic ones, or entities too small to be called governments. It's not specific to democracy, and certainly not up for bargaining even within a democracy.

Old Post 06-24-13 20:09 #
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Maes said:


But that's one monopoly that EVERY kind of state/government actually claims for itself



I know, I'm agreeing with you. I was just reiterating what you said with the Max Weber quote.

Old Post 06-24-13 20:11 #
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myk
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Maes said:
I do concede that Brasil is quite advanced though, and probably one of the first to get past its colonial past (the fact that it was subject to a relatively minor colonial power surely helped, but I'm digressing here).
Brazil's economy is big but it's one of the Latin American countries with the biggest disparities in wealth distribution. Brazil is unusual in South America because it never had battles for independence and its changes have generally been gradual, which may well explain why Brazilians are not used to mass marches and protests, as well as the relative wealth inequality compared to many of its neighbors.

Lately, Brazil has done a good deal to rescue the lower classes but it has been developing a bit much on exporting resources and the financial sector (that make it dependent abroad) and not enough on strengthening its industry and wider consumer base (which are good for economic independence). Its gradual liberation may also explain its overcomplicated political system, which alienates politicians from the people and forces even rather popular governments to negotiate complex political alliances to govern and leads to corruption. Its overpowered state cops are also a complicating factor, which is why there was repression in some areas even as the national government opened to negotiating with the protesters.


Now, I don't know if each and every of the former "Banana Republics" managed to get past that stage -some obviously didn't, some are trying- but certainly when I think political stability and democracy, Latin America is -still- not what my mind jumps at first.
At least here various governments are in many ways closer to their general population than those overshadowed directly by the US industrial-military complex or the troika, or they are getting closer to popular democracy while the traditional West drifts father from that and closer to bursocracy.

Old Post 06-25-13 18:17 #
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Sokoro
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that female at 1:45 in OP's video looks good, bad you can not take one of those as souvenir when visiting Brazil :o)

Old Post 07-07-13 21:12 #
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Sokoro said:
that female at 1:45 in OP's video looks good, bad you can not take one of those as souvenir when visiting Brazil :o)
She'll marry you for American citizenship, I'm sure.

Old Post 07-07-13 21:28 #
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Rizera
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Well, I'm quite impressed by the kinda huge feedback this thread had!

Nowadays, the riots are very diminished, mostly because the president has announced that a referendum is taking place by the end of this year or the next...So things are now kind of calm again. Not only that, but the government took a few measures according to what the people was asking for.

I still think it is small comparing to everything that still needs to be changed in this country. I do think that new riots are going to take place when the World Cup or the Olympics start, but I find it really hard that the cops are joining the riots in any extent.

Very good points myk, Maes and gggmork and Kontra Kommando. Brazil has a huge potential, but still many many problems to deal with.

Sokoro, it is not hard to find a girl who looks that good in Brazil, and the girls here absolutely love foreigners.

And yes, I meant exploited, haha. Sorry about that.

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Old Post 07-10-13 05:17 #
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