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Hypnotoad
Green Marine


Posts: 30
Registered: 08-10



Captain Red said:
OH YES! It was OBVIOUSLY this insistence on having not shitty, lazy stereotypes for any character other then a white male (you know, the playable character for %99 of every game ever made) that lead to the popularity of CoD Clones. I can see that sane and reasonable connection that you've made. But let's say that the next part of this post is in response to a hypothetical knee jerk rant about god knows what:

What is being asked for is to have a little thought put into the character designs of not white males. There's this problem in modern media about this entrenched idea that the normal or default character is a white male, and anything other then that is a deviation from that norm. What's being asked for is to remove the idea of being black, Asian of female as a 'character trait' and just have full three dimensional characters who are also Female or black or Asian, and it would help a lot if they where prominent parts of the cast. If it's done by an even halfway competent writer then you won't notice (but your brain will, see almost every obsidian game).

Sure, if the authors just has a story in his or her heart that is specifically related to white men and issues specifically unique to a white man then obviously make the story you want to tell man, but if it could be about anyone, why not an Asian lady or something? Seriously, just pick something at random! Go hog wild!

It's a problem because rockstar has been better then most about this (though you haven't been able to play as a lady since the first game) but it sounds like they may be slipping into some of there lazier habits.

Ironically, the same thing that is leading to homogenized brown FPSs is the same thing giving us a white sausage fest.



In Rockstars case, they draw direct inspiration from and basically purposefully mimmick dozens of films and dramas involving the criminal underworld and city lifestyle. Hence, most of its characters will be similar to the main characters that appear in these stories (e.g. males that are Italian Americans, eastern European immigrants, rednecks, African Americans). This will not change until a new set of more "progressive" crime dramas appear in other media formats for Rockstar to pay homage to first.

Old Post 09-19-13 01:15 #
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Nightmare Doom
On probation


Posts: 817
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Jimothy said:


And yet they keep pushing even though women already ARE being recognized as people. Silly radicals!

(side note: I fail to take you seriously.)



Upon closer inspection, No they're not

It seems all of you continue to ignore reality which is another sign that you have accepted your privilege and your entitlement/superiority by even denying it exists .

Old Post 09-19-13 01:18 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Nightmare Doom said:
It is because you clearly know nothing about feminism at all and you assume it is a hate group while it's really about the radical notion of women being recognized as people rather than sex objects/subordinates/etc.

I treat women the same way I treat men. Actually, better (guess that makes me sexist), because I have decent values.

Your views on the subject, on the other hand, are so pathetic that I think you're actually detrimental to people fighting against real discrimination against women. I certainly wouldn't want you speaking for me, were I in their place.


Nightmare Doom said:


Upon closer inspection, No they're not

It seems all of you continue to ignore reality which is another sign that you have accepted your privilege and your entitlement/superiority by even denying it exists .


You're the delusional one here, buddy.

Old Post 09-19-13 01:23 #
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Jimothy
Junior Member


Posts: 124
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Nightmare Doom said:


Upon closer inspection, No they're not

It seems all of you continue to ignore reality which is another sign that you have accepted your privilege and your entitlement/superiority by even denying it exists .



Unless you can show me very, very explicit proof, I'm going to laugh you off. I see women constantly being treated as equals, shouldn't that be enough to shut up the bandwagoners?

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and it looks like the pup that's feminism is going to have a rather large chunk taken out of it.

(also, there's no such thing as privilege, it's just silly Tumblrisms.)

Old Post 09-19-13 01:24 #
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dew
experts


Posts: 3296
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Nightmare Doom said:
It is because you clearly know nothing about feminism at all and you assume it is a hate group while it's really about the radical notion of women being recognized as people rather than sex objects/subordinates/etc.

I know enough to recognize you for a ridiculous moron that does feminism a huge disservice by acting like a militaristic feminazi. You're like one of those Poe feminist parodic websites that want to put trousers on poodles so that offended women don't have to look at dogs strutting around their symbol of dominance openly. You'll most likely chase away most of the feminists and sympathetic folks by your aggressive phallus-toppling agenda that doesn't recognize anything short of utter submission to whatever you preach after starting with "unchecked privilege as a male". Enticing a gender war will get you exactly nowhere. Here's a funny quote you may froth over at the mouth until you choke:


The war between the sexes is over. We won the second women started doing pole dancing for exercise.

Old Post 09-19-13 01:25 #
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Technician
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Jroc said:
In Rockstars case, they draw direct inspiration from and basically purposefully mimmick dozens of films and dramas involving the criminal underworld and city lifestyle. Hence, most of its characters will be similar to the main characters that appear in these stories (e.g. males that are Italian Americans, eastern European immigrants, rednecks, African Americans). This will not change until a new set of more "progressive" crime dramas appear in other media formats for Rockstar to pay homage to first.
No, the problem is organized crime is inherently segregated and male-driven.


Dragonsbrethren said:
I treat women the same way I treat men. Actually, better (guess that makes me sexist), because I have decent values.
You can't have chivalry without chauvinism.

Last edited by Technician on 09-19-13 at 01:35

Old Post 09-19-13 01:25 #
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Hypnotoad
Green Marine


Posts: 30
Registered: 08-10



Nightmare Doom said:


Upon closer inspection, No they're not

It seems all of you continue to ignore reality which is another sign that you have accepted your privilege and your entitlement/superiority by even denying it exists .



I do not think you push your agenda very well because you use too much sloganeering, which sets off alarm bells in most peoples heads as most people have internal heuristics that associate people using cliche idioms and insider terminology as probably being part of some obsessive cult without much individuality.

Old Post 09-19-13 01:27 #
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Hypnotoad
Green Marine


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Technician said:
No, the problem is organized crime is inherently segregated and male-driven.



In which case GTA, being about organized crime, will also be inherently male driven.

Old Post 09-19-13 01:29 #
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Hypnotoad
Green Marine


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schwerpunk said:
It's entirely possible that this game isn't for you. I'm personally enjoying the game, but not for any of the quoted reasons. So it's possible that you might still enjoy GTAV (although if you're at all uncertain, then I would recommend waiting until the more balanced reviews come out / the game's price decreases).

The most disappointing thing about GTA V so far is the absence of optional taxi, ambulance, and vigilante missions. So far, I haven't seen any legitimate way to make money on your own, other than robbing convenience stores, armoured trucks, etc.



There are definitely legit ways to make a lot of money but you need capital first. Once you do things like invest in stocks, and purchase property/businesses, which may have their own managerial missions (although these missions may not be "legit", I havent tried them yet).

Old Post 09-19-13 01:33 #
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Joshy
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dew said:

I know enough to recognize you for a ridiculous moron that does feminism a huge disservice by acting like a militaristic feminazi. You're like one of those Poe feminist parodic websites that want to put trousers on poodles so that offended women don't have to look at dogs strutting around their symbol of dominance openly. You'll most likely chase away most of the feminists and sympathetic folks by your aggressive phallus-toppling agenda that doesn't recognize anything short of utter submission to whatever you preach after starting with "unchecked privilege as a male". Enticing a gender war will get you exactly nowhere. Here's a funny quote you may froth over at the mouth until you choke:


I'd have to agree here. As much as there are complex and deeply embedded gender inequalities in our patriarchal societies (whether obvious or not) it is actually counter-productive when you have aggressive slogans spread across in various discourse. Even though I am a male-feminist, I have said things that could have been misconstrued as sexist or female-bashing (even though my beliefs and morals are pro-feminist/equality and respect between differences, so on), and when I find people pointing out to me I've said something sexist or bigoted, all I can initially think of is stfu. Interpretation is a funny thing. I think what is inherent within these aggressive scrutinising is the ideas and sentiments are too absolute. Not that I'm saying postmodernism is cool (I hate it) but absolutism has no place in gender (and other) issues, particularly when there are so many things to take into account.

Old Post 09-19-13 03:52 #
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Mr. Freeze
etc.


Posts: 1777
Registered: 06-09


If the gender doesn't matter, why is the character female?

If the race doesn't matter, why is the character black?

My best friend is a feminist, and we both agree that having a token "strong womyn who dont need no man" character who's basically written as a male ANYWAY, is a lot more offensive than having shrill, annoying female characters (or hell, even ANY female characters).

Old Post 09-19-13 03:54 #
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schwerpunk
Senior Member


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I dunno... My good friend is a woman gamer, and according to her, the main issue is sparsity of female protagonists - full stop. I mean, we men already have out pick of shallow, one-dimensional make characters. It's mainly women and minorities which are being left out.

I say let there be shallow characters for all! Maybe then the industry can start working in making them interesting.

Old Post 09-19-13 04:07 #
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Raptomex
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Posts: 101
Registered: 08-12



Lombardi said:
I'm gonna buy it for the PS4 when it comes out. I don't have to get it immediately like the majority of the people. You know why?



DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM


No plans for GTA V on PS4

Old Post 09-19-13 06:42 #
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Shaviro
Team Future Chief


Posts: 8846
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Eh, the problem with women in GTA is that they don't know how to write women characters and the game suffers as a result. It's a problem for the game's quality, not a problem for society.

Old Post 09-19-13 07:43 #
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Captain Red
Pants


Posts: 5358
Registered: 06-01



Technician said:
Tumblr comes to Doomworld.

And I see it's brought Reddit right along with it!

AND THEN IT WAS SONG TIME:

Last edited by Captain Red on 09-19-13 at 08:23

Old Post 09-19-13 07:54 #
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Captain Red
Pants


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Shaviro said:
Eh, the problem with women in GTA is that they don't know how to write women characters and the game suffers as a result. It's a problem for the game's quality, not a problem for society.


http://global3.memecdn.com/george-r-r-martin-on-writing-women_o_1826701.jpg
It really is that simple

Last edited by Captain Red on 09-19-13 at 08:29

Old Post 09-19-13 07:56 #
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DoomUK
Forum Staple


Posts: 3838
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I've become too lazy to read threads lately, so I'm not exactly sure what's going on. But we're not seriously discussing gender equality in a GTA game*, are we?

*A series of games known for its generally offensive content - which is satirical to some, but seen as corrupting to others, but either way is instrumental in its popularity.

Old Post 09-19-13 09:23 #
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DoomUK
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Anyway, if Rockstar uphold their tradition of making lousy PC ports, I wonder what kind of ridiculously monstrous PC is going to be needed to run this when PC gamers get their hands on it?

Old Post 09-19-13 09:31 #
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DooM_RO
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Max Payne 3 was a great port.

Old Post 09-19-13 09:41 #
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Avoozl
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DooM_RO said:
Max Payne 3 was a great port.
Yeah, it pretty much was.

Old Post 09-19-13 10:14 #
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Jodwin
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DoomUK said:
But we're not seriously discussing gender equality in a GTA game*, are we?

Equality? No. Equal quality of writing for all kinds of characters? Yes.

Old Post 09-19-13 10:46 #
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Dragonsbrethren
Senior Member


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DoomUK said:
But we're not seriously discussing gender equality in a GTA game*, are we?

Nope, just making fun of this post and the subsequent ones.

Old Post 09-19-13 11:47 #
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Captain Red
Pants


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Dragonsbrethren said:

Nope, just making fun of this post and the subsequent ones.


It was dumb and full of inane slogans as a few posters pointed out, but not entirely unprovoked, and some of the 'retorts' weren't exactly... classy.

Yeah, this thread went to a pretty dark place.


Jroc said:
In which case GTA, being about organized crime, will also be inherently male driven.

Well, it's 'organized crime' in the sense that they're a three criminals who decided that teaming up would make them crime better. They're a retired bank robber, a gangster who never found a gang, and a psychotic lunatic. There's been lady bank robbers and lady gangsters before, and I've always wanted to see a female crazy person played as a menacing presence (like the heath's Joker or Hannibal Lector). Would anyone like the game less if they added a lady PC to the DLC just to mix things up a bit?

With regards to the original review that kicked off this wonderful little tangent, I'd been nice if she'd cited an example of where this game being misogynistic that I can judge for myself.

Old Post 09-19-13 13:31 #
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Jayextee
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Nightmare Doom said:


First of all you have no idea what is like to be a woman due to your unchecked privilege as a male.




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/jayextee/945718_10151481938421507_1936475371_n_zpsdef7564a.jpg

There's female privilege too, but I wouldn't advise you getting into the whole shebang of putting one gender against the other (assuming, of course, that it's a binary. Which it isn't) because, believe it or not, this is completely the thing that keeps sexism alive.

How did this start? Because someone here wanted to play as a female character in a GTA game? That's fair.

Or rather, it's fair as long as the character is equal in all respects to the playable male characters. If you were to add in shit like male/female privilege, not only would it unbalance the game but it's perpetuating the whole gender 'war'.

No wait, it was a transgendered reviewer that set off the Doomworld dogs? Even better! You're telling me that someone who has seen from both sides of the 'normal' gender binary can't bring their own balanced perspective to a review where they still score the game highly?

I dunno man, this kind of hateful behaviour frustrates me. Chill shit, it's just an incredibly sexist and trashy mainstream videogame here.

Old Post 09-19-13 13:47 #
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bcwood16
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It would be pretty cool to play as a female in this game, that would be pretty bad ass, it may even make me a little interested in this game.

With all the interactivity in games this should be mostly a standard choice in most games.

Think the first game I saw this in was Star Trek Elite force....god that bas a good game :)....anyway, you could play as a chick, but then in number two you 'had' to play as male BOO!!!

I enjoy the NOLF series too for this, but thats actually the other ay round, you cant play as a male.

It just makes gameplay a different experience. In the Mass Effect series I always played as chick, Mr Shepard was pants.....guna get flamed for that one.

Oh by the way I heard on the news today (UK) that this game is selling with outstanding numbers! Breaking many records.....im beginning to think im missing out on something here. Then again this happened to Gears of War, consols people went on about it was the 'best' game 'ever' made, then when it came home to PC with 'extra' content I found it to be boring, repetitive and well...pants.

God, im going off topic here! - Soz

Old Post 09-19-13 14:00 #
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Avoozl
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When it comes to certain situations women actually have more rights than men.

Old Post 09-19-13 14:28 #
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schwerpunk
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Same could be said of children versus adults, but that even tangentially related to video-games.

Old Post 09-19-13 15:31 #
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Shaviro
Team Future Chief


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Captain Red said:
It really is that simple


Yeah. There are a few subtleties that makes it different, but basically it's the same thing as writing for a male character. The problem arises when the writers put too much emphasis on the minor differences.

Anyway, GTA would be a better game if it had better characters. Pretty simple and straight forward. That's what I meant in my initial post. I'm pretty sure this is the point the reviewer (Petit?) tried to get across as well. It's not so much the problem that there are no playable female characters or that women are portrayed as shallow eye-candy. The problem is the one dimensional poor quality of the female characters drag down an otherwise rich (in both quantity and quality) game. Trying to attribute this to society or anything else is just missing the mark by a mile.

Old Post 09-19-13 15:46 #
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40oz
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the best characters were the ones that shut the hell up.

Old Post 09-19-13 16:52 #
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Flesh420
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Now now, guys. We all know a woman couldn't be in any game because, well... they need to stay in the kitchen. ;)

Old Post 09-19-13 18:23 #
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