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chesse20
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what do you think of those doom styled games made with gamemaker
do you think its possible to make a good doom style game in gamemaker?

Old Post 09-26-13 02:44 #
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Clonehunter
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FPS Creator can make FPS Games. You can probably add in sprites for a Doom feel.

Old Post 09-26-13 04:23 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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FPS Creator is a piece of shit. I think it's possible to make a good Doom style game in Doom, so why bother with alternatives?

Old Post 09-26-13 04:25 #
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Marnetmar
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It's not possible to make good anything on gamemaker.

Old Post 09-26-13 05:25 #
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Maes
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chesse20 said:
do you think its possible to make a good doom style game in gamemaker?


Hope always dies last, I guess.

Old Post 09-26-13 09:41 #
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Magnetick
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Marnetmar said:
It's not possible to make good anything on gamemaker.



The PC Spelunky was made in Game Maker. Game Maker can be surprisingly high quality.

I think Game Maker seems to becoming more viable, especially as people realize how to use it. (IE not using it's packed-in effects like transitions)

A good chunk of Game Maker games are still crap, though.

Old Post 09-26-13 11:38 #
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Maes
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I've yet to see a decent FPS made with any sort of "make your own games" tool. They often have an inefficient engine, which makes even apparently simple games run like crap, too little gameplay variety (types also bound to the engine), plus lack of talent by part of the creators.

My reasoning is that if someone has what it takes to develop a good quality FPS, he would go for a game based on one of the major engines (Quake, Doom 3, Source, Unreal, Half Life etc.) that have vast examples, tools, documentation and "know how" behind them, or at least make a mod for a game that uses them.

The gamemaking-tool's promise of "not needing any programming knowledge to make their own games" will be broken as soon as the would-be creator will want to add "something extra" to his game, besides the stock behaviors. That means the very least, scripting, even if disguised behind a fancy RAD GUI of sorts. Why not go straight for the real deal and mod for HL, Quake, Source etc., then?

A gamemaker tool is only "easier" than "normal" modding as long as you stick to a very limited set of resources, behaviors, etc., so those who stick to gamemaking tools exclusively (at least for FPS) just make their life difficult, after a certain point, so they cannot go past a fairly low level of quality. I'd take any 1994 WAD over any FPS made with a gamemaker engine of sorts.

Old Post 09-26-13 14:20 #
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schwerpunk
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Re Gamemaker as a game maker: I haven't tried it, but it seems like a good way for newbies to catch the modding fever. But even that would be easier done by firing up one's favourite [insert game] editor. IMO, mapping (and maybe some light modding) will always be the easiest point of entry into game creation.

I guess I don't have anything worthwhile to add to the central query of this thread... has anyone here even tried Gamemaker? Chesse20?

Old Post 09-26-13 15:49 #
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Maes
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There was a project some months ago by this Sahkan guy who tried to recreate a "Doom-like" game in the Unity engine. Again, all the work he had to put into it, especially with custom models (a few) and levels (just one), made me wonder why he didn't just map for Doom directly.

People seem to forget that Doom is much more mod-friendly and easier to redesign top-to-bottom even by a single man in a reasonable amount of time. A modern full fledged 3D engine requires nothing short of a professional team of modellers/programmers/level editors/etc. to look anything near presentable, leaving gameplay and controls considerations aside (in that department especially, show me ONE game that matches Doom, even).

Old Post 09-26-13 16:30 #
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Shadow Hog
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Game Maker can make good games. Hotline Miami was a Game Maker game, for instance.

That said, if you want to make a good 3D FPS game in Game Maker:

1) Why
2) If you're serious, go watch Lowtax/Shmorky's Let's Plays of similar projects, see what those games are doing, and then don't do any of that. Seriously.

It's actually amusing to see how often, in those games they're playing, the Doom barrel shows up. It even shows up in places you'd not expect it to (like in Portal 3D, where Lowtax shoots one of the 1500 Megawatt Aperture Science Heavy Duty Super-Colliding Super Buttons, and it, of all things, turns into a Doom barrel and explodes).

Old Post 09-26-13 16:57 #
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crashhelper
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Shadow Hog said:
It's actually amusing to see how often, in those games they're playing, the Doom barrel shows up. It even shows up in places you'd not expect it to (like in Portal 3D, where Lowtax shoots one of the 1500 Megawatt Aperture Science Heavy Duty Super-Colliding Super Buttons, and it, of all things, turns into a Doom barrel and explodes).

The original FPS-making tutorial for GM used several doom assets, including the SSG and cacodemon sprites. I would not be surprised if the barrel sprites were also used.

Old Post 09-26-13 21:10 #
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Shadow Hog
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Yeah, but I mean, most of these "games" put forth just enough effort to replace the weapons and enemies in the game... but can't be arsed to change the barrels while they're at it. It's pretty hilarious.

Old Post 09-27-13 00:25 #
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Maes
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Not directly related to Gamemaker, but I've seen people putting the Android SDK's Snake game demo up for sale, so it should come at no surprise that laziness or delusions of grandeur/talent are common between wannabe game creators with not enough programming skill or dedication to acquire it.

Game creation kits are generally complete rookies' crutches/shortcuts for getting a functional "game" out very quickly, but to create something like the Spelunky remake you DO need quite a lot of programming skills (scripting, in particular). Gamemaker's function, in that case, is merely providing a convenient "engine" around which to build, which is not very different from how a similar game be developed with "conventional" means, nowadays (many are scripting-heavy for the game code anyway).

At that level, the game's creator must already be an accomplished programmer, so Gamemaker does NOT do what it actually "promises" to, AKA allowing a complete beginner to be making top-selling games in a few clicks...not even close. Just like learning to play e.g. the keyboard with a simplified accord system won't get you very far professionally (or even as a hobbyist musician).

Old Post 09-28-13 19:17 #
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kristus
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Marnetmar said:
It's not possible to make good anything on gamemaker.
This statement is demonstrably false, seeing as there's been several really good games released (and sold) that were made using Gamemaker.

Old Post 09-28-13 20:02 #
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Maes
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kristus said:
This statement is demonstrably false, seeing as there's been several really good games released (and sold) that were made using Gamemaker.


What about "it's not possible to make good anything on Gamemaker without effort" ?

Old Post 09-28-13 20:10 #
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Shadow Hog
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It's not really possible to make anything good without effort, unless you're innately talented (or stupidly lucky).

Old Post 09-28-13 20:17 #
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Maes
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Does using a game template and throwing in some ready-made resources count as "effort"? Because if that was the case, then anybody opening a MIDI file in an editor and changing some instruments and notes randomly would be a "musician" or "making their own music, easily, with no need for costly and lengthy music lessons!".

Old Post 09-28-13 21:59 #
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Shadow Hog
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It certainly would not, no.

Old Post 09-28-13 22:04 #
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Maes
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Simply put, Game maker is to video games what Slige is to Doom levels. Certainly, someone could just use a Slige level as a base, do some (extensive) edits, and even make it good. But honestly, will the average Slige user do that?

Old Post 09-28-13 22:39 #
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Shadow Hog
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Game Maker isn't a template, though, nor does it automatically generate levels for you. Not really an applicable comparison.

I'd say a better comparison (although far from perfect) would be ZDoom. You can put in a ton of effort and come out with something unique and worth playing, that just used what the engine did (basic AI, rendering, collision detection, scripting and such for ZDoom; audio/video/IO and scripting for Game Maker) to save a bit of time over doing everything from scratch (eg: Harmony is to ZDoom what Hotline Miami is to Game Maker)... or you can put forth only the most basic amount of effort to get what it is you want, without putting any thought into whether or not the end result is something anyone'd even want to bother with (eg: Terry WADs : ZDoom :: these : Game Maker).

Old Post 09-28-13 22:49 #
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Maes
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But Game maker does have sample games and tutorials. Not exactly the same as a template, but pretty close (e.g. "generic platformer", "generic space shooter" etc.). Someone might find them good enough to just slap a few things on and call them his own "creations".

Plus, the built-in resources definitively classify as "templates". It's not like Doom's reuse of textures, because with Gamemaker you're supposed to be making a new game each time, right?

The point is, gamemaker-like systems are pretty much missing the point: (most) professional developers won't use them, favoring industry-standard APIs and Engines instead. Even amateur -but serious- game developers will prefer to develop their skills by learning to use said tool "the hard way", rather than learning on a toy system. I don't think "Game maker experience" would look good on any resume ;-)

So what are their intended target audience? They are always promoted as tools for people that want to make their own games but not learn how to code. Unsurprisingly, such packages fail even their intended users: no matter how much you simplify things for them, there's a limit beyond which they have to go advanced, if they don't want to churn out same-y template-based "games" and make an ass out of themselves, so even the "promise" behind such game-making systems is only a half-granted wish, at best.

The worst aspect, IMO, is that the users of such systems learn nothing actually useful or marketable about either programming or actual game development. It's pretty much like sitting in the passenger's seat of your family's car while your daddy is driving, and pretending to be driving yourself with one of those toy plastic wheels.

Most users will also be disappointed when they will start seeing that to really materialize their ideas, they'll have to go for the real deal, and not the programming equivalent of a set of play-doh or LEGO Duplo blocks (for babies).

Another programming equivalent is those super-simplified programmer environments which mask actual programming behind a GUI where you piece together statements with puzzle-like elements:

http://robotclub.ab.ca/images/21.gif

Very soon this reaches its limits, and sadly experience has shown that such environment are actually crippling to learning "true" programming languages, pretty much like BASIC was once considered crippling to beginner programmers (and painful to experienced ones...)

The equivalence with SLIGE is this: SLIGE promises you to make "professional looking" levels effortlessly, and in fact any monkey can churn out a "megawad" in seconds (with minimal customizations, maybe), and get it rejected on idgames or on WADS & Mods, along with receiving a lot of butthurt ;-)

But, SLIGE also allows you to do more sophisticated customization, allegedly giving much better results than thought possible...but do you know of any "skilled SLIGE manipulators" or mappers specializing in editing SLIGE maps into something unique? Right, no. Anyone with the will to make really good maps will sooner or later realize that manual map creation from scratch is the way to go, and that trying to improve their SLIGE-ing skills just puts them in a niche and teaches them nothing.

Old Post 09-28-13 23:40 #
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SavageCorona
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I remember some guy made "Best Gaem Ever 2012" last year, titled "Filipe1020's Adventure" and it was based on Doom and Blockland, featuring stupid enemies with poor 1-plane sprites that just ran at you and damaged you when you touch them. It was very similar to Doom only with Wolf-like movement. Predictably, it was very dumb.

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Old Post 09-29-13 21:22 #
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Bucket
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Maes said:
Does using a game template and throwing in some ready-made resources count as "effort"?

Let's ask some Doom mappers.

Old Post 09-29-13 21:56 #
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Maes
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Bucket said:
Let's ask some Doom mappers.


Especially those that can bend that SLIGE thing like a mother fucker, I bet. Or maybe those that can modify IWAD levels like no other?

Old Post 09-30-13 01:03 #
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Bucket
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Your analogy is poor. You can create something good through significant effort. The medium is irrelevant. There are awesome AAA games, and awesome weapon mods for Half Life.

Old Post 09-30-13 01:54 #
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Magnetick
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Maes said:


Especially those that can bend that SLIGE thing like a mother fucker, I bet. Or maybe those that can modify IWAD levels like no other?



Yeah, except that takes no effort.

Old Post 09-30-13 03:18 #
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Maes
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Bucket said:
Your analogy is poor. You can create something good through significant effort. The medium is irrelevant. There are awesome AAA games, and awesome weapon mods for Half Life.


Let me repeat it one more time: AAA games and Half Life require professional programming/computer artistry skills and experience with the HL editing tools, respectively.

Those that can do, become pros, and VERY FEW OF THEM USE GAMEMAKER. GEE, I WONDER WHY.

Gamemaker-like tools on the other hand attract mostly people who hope to making a quick game without investing on what it normally takes. A good proportion of them is objectively untalented or unskilled, and won't "advance" any farther either, both because they DON'T WANT TO in the first place ("I just wanted to make a game, man") AND because such tools have poor general teaching/skill-building value.

Can you make a good game with Gamemaker? Sure, you can, just like you can make good software in VB 6.0 or drive a car with an automatic gearbox competitively. For some reason, those skilled enough to do so move on to other languages and drive cars with manual gearboxes, respectively ;-)

Those that cannot stick to their toys, simple.


Magnetick said:
Yeah, except that takes no effort.


You can produce a "game" with Gamemaker with similarly little effort, starting from the right template/demo/example/sample project/whatever. That doesn't make you a "game developer" though.

Old Post 09-30-13 07:56 #
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Magnetick
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Maes said:


Can you make a good game with Gamemaker? Sure, you can, just like you can make good software in VB 6.0 or drive a car with an automatic gearbox competitively.




You can make garbage in Visual Basic, too.

Old Post 09-30-13 10:24 #
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Maes
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Magnetick said:
You can make garbage in Visual Basic, too.


And in fact, garbage in VB is considered the norm, rather than the exception.

Why do you think "beginner-friendly" tools or gear in EVERY field get such a bad rep? Exactly because they are "easy" to learn and master (that's often a misperception, BTW), they attract a lot of newbies.

On the one hand, that is a Good Thing, as more people are drawn to a trade or a hobby. On the other hand, their accessibility usually comes at a hidden "price", e.g. encouraging bad practices, lack of performance, limited opportunities for expansion or teaching more general skills etc.

So many newbies flock to the "easy" tools (tons of market hype, niche market demands and promises of becoming a "professional coder" overnight don't help, either), but instead of learning and growing to be better/more advanced coders and move on to something more capable, most of them will become stuck at the level imposed by the tools themselves, and harm both themselves and software development at large.

Old Post 09-30-13 10:45 #
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Jayextee
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GameMaker isn't universally-bad.



Sure, it started as a Sonic fangame (with like, 99% original content). But this shows what's possible with such a 'limited' tool. It's an appealing prospect, not only for those who want to quickly click a 'herpaderp I done made a game' but people like Freedom Planet's creator, who have a multitude of skills but sadly not the aptitude for programming.

Old Post 09-30-13 10:52 #
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