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Csonicgo


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The problem is that you have a loud minority of idiots that think that the constitution is a sacred document, and whatever it says goes. Consider it the ten commandments 2.0.

If that is so, then the act of letting the country default is in itself unconstitutional. The Tea Party can't have it both ways.

Old Post 10-08-13 03:59 #
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Quast
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fraggle said:
the US is a 200 year old system that at the time was a revolutionary experiment in government. It got a lot of things wrong, and some of those still haven't been fixed.

And it won't get fixed with our current political setup. Isn't that interesting?

Seriously, how the hell do you really dispute this and move forward with people who yearn for their imagined and glorified 18th century/mid 20 century and everything that would entail to present itself again?

Old Post 10-08-13 04:01 #
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fraggle
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I fear it will probably take some kind of serious political crisis (several steps beyond the current one) for people to realise the extent of the problems and that they need to be fixed.

Old Post 10-08-13 04:41 #
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DooMAD
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China and Japan will come knocking on the door to break your thumbs if you don't get it sorted, America.

Old Post 10-08-13 09:15 #
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Jodwin
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DooMAD said:
China and Japan will come knocking on the door to break your thumbs if you don't get it sorted, America.

Who cares about China anyway? Punishing our poor and sick by not giving them free health care is much more important! Fuck those commies!

Old Post 10-08-13 09:36 #
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Maes
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Japan


Funny, because this gentleman pretty much hopes that the elderly and sick just shrivel up and die, already.

Old Post 10-08-13 09:46 #
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Jodwin
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Maes said:
Funny, because this gentleman pretty much hopes that the elderly and sick just shrivel up and die, already.

Or he's pro-euthanasia. :P

Old Post 10-08-13 10:03 #
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Maes
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Jodwin said:
Or he's pro-euthanasia. :P


It won't be long until they start considering the material advantages of such a programme, other than the obvious social and economic advantages of having fewer unproductive "freeloaders" and "troublemakers" around. Besides, the concept has already been tested with great success.

Old Post 10-08-13 10:45 #
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geo
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DooMAD said:
China and Japan will come knocking on the door to break your thumbs if you don't get it sorted, America.


Good luck. Japan couldn't get the job done in World War 2.

My morning news now layoffs are being discussed ... not sure why layoffs would be discussed if no one is working. Maybe its for the 300,000 civilian military employees.

Interesting that the military government employees get to come back to work.

Can't get out of this debt.

Old Post 10-08-13 13:19 #
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Quasar
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The Indian Health Services has shut down its NPIRS facility so, the program I recently spent 5 months developing to export our workload data from Allscripts ProEHR to them in HL7 format is for nothing, at least until this bullshit gets worked out.

Old Post 10-08-13 15:57 #
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DooMAD
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geo said:
Good luck. Japan couldn't get the job done in World War 2.

Joking aside, though, if China and Japan dumped that debt, your already decidedly wobbly economy will take a further hit. This article might be 3 years old now, but suddenly seems quite relevant again.

Another article here is from the perspective of diplomatic tension resulting from the Syria conflict having an effect on debt holdings abroad, but the consequences listed are the same. Makes for some depressing reading if you're struggling financially already.

Last edited by DooMAD on 10-08-13 at 19:00

Old Post 10-08-13 18:48 #
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Kontra Kommando
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fraggle said:
Not really; political parties are simply conspiracies by groups of politicians to game the system in their favour.


I think its a little more complex than that. The american political system is generally a stratification of two large coalitions of constituencies; Democrats and left-leaning groups, and Republicans, and right-leaning groups. Could they be influenced, and manipulated by self-serving demagogues? Absolutely; but it's not everything. Interest groups also play a large role in the process. These interest groups are more specifically goal oriented portions of the constituency, that must be appeased; not just a handful of oligarchs. For example, the AARP; one of the most prominent interest groups largely represents the elderly vote. Old people vote in significant numbers, which is much more important in an election, than influence, and money provided by a single individual. Historians pin-point the genesis of contemporary american party politics to the election between John Q. Adams, and Andrew Jackson. During this election, you saw for the first time in american history, the large engineering of a smear campaign; the first being against Andrew Jackson. John Q. Adams, attempted to sully Jackson's reputation, by spreading rumors that he was 25% African-American. Yes, political factions developed in other countries, in earlier times (i.e. Tories, and Round heads). But the context of my post was in regards to American politics, and the original political traditions of the country. Prior to political parties, politicians barely campaigned. Moreover, mudslinging was considered highly inappropriate on the part of the insinuator.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 10-08-13 at 21:19

Old Post 10-08-13 21:09 #
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Aliotroph?
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It's a wonder Jackson didn't try to beat the whole electoral college with his cane until they voted for him. He was certifiably insane. :D

Old Post 10-08-13 21:12 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Aliotroph? said:
It's a wonder Jackson didn't try to beat the whole electoral college with his cane until they voted for him. He was certifiably insane. :D


That's why he's was one of my favorite historical figures in U.S. history.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 10-08-13 at 21:25

Old Post 10-08-13 21:17 #
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geo
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There is no way out of this debt.

If America paid $1 million per day it would take 46,575 years. Oh but then there's interest. fuck forgot about that.

Old Post 10-08-13 21:30 #
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Kontra Kommando said:
That's why he's was one of my favorite historical figures in U.S. history.

Not to derail, but seriously, fuck andrew jackson and everything he stood for. He, his life and legacy and what he perpetrated are an ugly stain on history. Anything good about his opinions or character are completely dwarfed by what a horrible human being he really was.

Old Post 10-09-13 01:18 #
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AndrewB
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Csonicgo said:
If that is so, then the act of letting the country default is in itself unconstitutional. The Tea Party can't have it both ways.


I don't understand this "debt is the way out of debt" attitude.

Old Post 10-09-13 01:31 #
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Quast said:

Not to derail, but seriously, fuck andrew jackson and everything he stood for. He, his life and legacy and what he perpetrated are an ugly stain on history. Anything good about his opinions or character are completely dwarfed by what a horrible human being he really was.



Yeah, and they put him on money! Zap Brannigan is probably one of his descendants.

Old Post 10-09-13 01:37 #
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Ladna
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Ralphis said:
Why are there are over 800,000 federal employees?


Sup buddy :)

There are way more than 800k federal employees, and that's just in 2001.

The answer is "half of all US federal employees are DoD". You can probably shave anywhere from 10-15% of the employees from the other organizations, but why bother. The tax money your average middle-class citizen would get from this would amount to like $40/year.

For anyone truly curious, gerrymandering is the cause of the government shutdown. State legislatures have created districts so safe for Republicans that the real electoral challenge is the primary, not the general, so every election is a new race to the extreme right. Political parties aren't the problem, partisan districting is. If you look at situations where courts have "fairly" drawn maps, polarization disappears.

Oh and who drew the maps in 2010 (the decennial census)? That's right, the fuckin Tea Party. Thanks dickholes.

Finally, everyone blows US debt way out of proportion. I think it's hilarious that a huge tagline for Republicans during the election is that "at some point the market will lose confidence in the federal government's ability to pay the bills, and our government will collapse", but now they're actually trying to force that situation with a shutdown and a debt ceiling default. Idiots.

Sure, a debt ceiling default would be pretty awful. US debt is nowhere near insurmountable however. US debt is almost at GDP; if you somehow (and this is pretty easy mathematically) carve out 10% of the budget every year, you paid down the deficit in 10 years. Poof.

TL;DR

Gerrymandering caused the shutdown and the Do-Nothing Congress
I'm so goddamn tired of the debt boogeyman
The Tea Party blows ass

Old Post 10-09-13 01:38 #
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fraggle
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Kontra Kommando said:
I think its a little more complex than that. The american political system is generally a stratification of two large coalitions of constituencies;


You're right of course that it isn't simple at all. You're also correct to point out that both the Democrat and Republican parties are coalitions of smaller groups. The Republican party is a good example, where you have fiscal conservatives, libertarians, social conservatives and religious groups. There's overlap between these, of course (it wouldn't be much of a coalition otherwise), but these groups would be better represented as separate and distinct parties.

Ultimately I believe that having huge overarching coalitions like this is harmful. The reason is that (for example) "Republican" politicians must be seen to represent all of those minor groups. Not every libertarian is a social conservative, but must be seen to be in order to placate those voters. If you want an example, simply look no further than last year's Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, a perfect example of a chameleon politician who stands for nothing and anything that will get him that magic 50% of the vote. A two party system actively encourages this kind of self-serving, two-dimensional candidate.


Democrats and left-leaning groups, and Republicans, and right-leaning groups.
Yes, but isn't that a tautology? In a way, "left wing" and "right wing" are simply artifacts of the two party system itself. All "left wing" really means is "has some slight ideological overlap with other groups that are considered left wing and are therefore Democrat".


Interest groups also play a large role in the process. These interest groups are more specifically goal oriented portions of the constituency, that must be appeased; not just a handful of oligarchs. For example, the AARP; one of the most prominent interest groups largely represents the elderly vote. Old people vote in significant numbers, which is much more important in an election, than influence, and money provided by a single individual.

Yes, but isn't "interest group" really just a synonym for "political party"? Other countries actually have such parties. Even if parties like these are too small to win enough votes, a multi-party system provides more ability to express real choice, as fringe voters like these can vote for parties who best represent their interests.


Historians pin-point the genesis of contemporary american party politics to the election between John Q. Adams, and Andrew Jackson. During this election, you saw for the first time in american history, the large engineering of a smear campaign;
Smear campaigns are also an inevitability of a two party system: when there are only two choices, each candidate has only one opponent. Smearing your opponent makes perfect sense when using First Past The Post as your voting system: at minimum it can decrease the votes for your opponent; at best it may drive voters to you instead (as there's nowhere else for them to go).

Old Post 10-09-13 01:56 #
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DooMAD
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Ladna said:
Finally, everyone blows US debt way out of proportion. I think it's hilarious that a huge tagline for Republicans during the election is that "at some point the market will lose confidence in the federal government's ability to pay the bills, and our government will collapse", but now they're actually trying to force that situation with a shutdown and a debt ceiling default. Idiots.

Sure, a debt ceiling default would be pretty awful. US debt is nowhere near insurmountable however. US debt is almost at GDP; if you somehow (and this is pretty easy mathematically) carve out 10% of the budget every year, you paid down the deficit in 10 years. Poof.


In fairness, yes, your debt as a fraction of GDP is better now than it was in the mid '40s, but that won't last much longer. The problem is the rate at which your debt is increasing. Seems to be going up faster than your GDP can keep up.

And if you can find a way to trim 10% off your budget without pissing anyone off, I suggest you stand for president immediately. :p

Last edited by DooMAD on 10-09-13 at 19:02

Old Post 10-09-13 18:41 #
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Kid Airbag
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Kontra Kommando said:

But its not just the tea bagger republicans, its also the democratic controlled senate. Both parties are to blame; gov't doesn't function well when its divided like it is currently.



This is unequivocally false, and the media's insistence on continuing to perpetuate this myth out of some misguided quest for "fairness" and "impartiality" is making me ill.

One side is holding the entire country hostage and threatening to press the detonator unless they get everything they want. I'll let you figure out which side that is.

Old Post 10-09-13 20:21 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Kid Airbag said:


This is unequivocally false, and the media's insistence on continuing to perpetuate this myth out of some misguided quest for "fairness" and "impartiality" is making me ill.

One side is holding the entire country hostage and threatening to press the detonator unless they get everything they want. I'll let you figure out which side that is.



Uhh, that's both parties right now. The democrats want a certain amount of funding for their programs (especially Obamacare); the republicans disagree on allowing the requested amount of funding for those programs. It all depends on how you see it.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 10-09-13 at 21:41

Old Post 10-09-13 21:16 #
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DooMAD
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Kid Airbag said:


This is unequivocally false, and the media's insistence on continuing to perpetuate this myth out of some misguided quest for "fairness" and "impartiality" is making me ill.

One side is holding the entire country hostage and threatening to press the detonator unless they get everything they want. I'll let you figure out which side that is.


You can see why people get the impression it's devolved into a farcical game of chicken, though. Hard to tell if both sides are going to lose face, or if whoever blinks first will take the brunt of the political fallout.

Old Post 10-09-13 21:17 #
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Kontra Kommando
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fraggle said:


You're right of course that it isn't simple at all. You're also correct to point out that both the Democrat and Republican parties are coalitions of smaller groups. The Republican party is a good example, where you have fiscal conservatives, libertarians, social conservatives and religious groups. There's overlap between these, of course (it wouldn't be much of a coalition otherwise), but these groups would be better represented as separate and distinct parties.

Ultimately I believe that having huge overarching coalitions like this is harmful. The reason is that (for example) "Republican" politicians must be seen to represent all of those minor groups. Not every libertarian is a social conservative, but must be seen to be in order to placate those voters. If you want an example, simply look no further than last year's Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, a perfect example of a chameleon politician who stands for nothing and anything that will get him that magic 50% of the vote. A two party system actively encourages this kind of self-serving, two-dimensional candidate.

Yes, but isn't that a tautology? In a way, "left wing" and "right wing" are simply artifacts of the two party system itself. All "left wing" really means is "has some slight ideological overlap with other groups that are considered left wing and are therefore Democrat".

Yes, but isn't "interest group" really just a synonym for "political party"? Other countries actually have such parties. Even if parties like these are too small to win enough votes, a multi-party system provides more ability to express real choice, as fringe voters like these can vote for parties who best represent their interests.

Smear campaigns are also an inevitability of a two party system: when there are only two choices, each candidate has only one opponent. Smearing your opponent makes perfect sense when using First Past The Post as your voting system: at minimum it can decrease the votes for your opponent; at best it may drive voters to you instead (as there's nowhere else for them to go).



The thing is, we are a two party system, not because its the law, but because it evolved to be that way. There are actually thousands of parties in the United States, the thing is that they just don't get a much attention as the two more well established parities. In regards to interest groups, it is not a synonym for a political party, because it could be composed of people who have different politics. The goal of an interest group is to focus on a specific cause that they all share. For example, the NRA, AARP, or Mother Against Drunk Driving are interest groups, which could contain democrats, republicans, or independents.

Old Post 10-09-13 21:30 #
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Kontra Kommando
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http://crfb.org/stabilizethedebt/

Here is a budget simulator game, where you are challenged to stabilize U.S. debt. I think this would merit its own thread, but I'll include it in this one.

The goal is to achieve 60% of GDP by 2021

Old Post 10-09-13 21:57 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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geo said:
There is no way out of this debt.

If America paid $1 million per day it would take 46,575 years. Oh but then there's interest. fuck forgot about that.


Your dept obsession reminds me of George Fiffy's elevator obsession. What ever happened to that guy, anyway?

Old Post 10-09-13 22:12 #
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Kid Airbag
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Kontra Kommando said:


Uhh, that's both parties right now. The democrats want a certain amount of funding for their programs (especially Obamacare); the republicans disagree on allowing the requested amount of funding for those programs. It all depends on how you see it.



Nope, sorry. The "clean" CR that would have averted this crisis already contained nearly everything the Republicans demanded as far as spending cuts were concerned. In fact, the evidence indicates that had Boehner allowed a vote on a "clean" bill that wasn't tied to Obamacare funding, that measure would have passed in the House because ample Republicans even realize how idiotic this hostage-taking is. This whole thing is entirely the fault of the far right nutjobs in the House who have decided that they absolutely must take down Obamacare - which, at this point, is so clearly about nothing more than personal spite, because now that it's up and running, all signs point to the ACA actually being a beneficial thing - even if it means destroying the country's economy again. This is essentially economic terrorism, and I don't see anyone blaming "both sides" for 9/11.

Old Post 10-09-13 22:33 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Kid Airbag said:


Nope, sorry. The "clean" CR that would have averted this crisis already contained nearly everything the Republicans demanded as far as spending cuts were concerned. In fact, the evidence indicates that had Boehner allowed a vote on a "clean" bill that wasn't tied to Obamacare funding, that measure would have passed in the House because ample Republicans even realize how idiotic this hostage-taking is. This whole thing is entirely the fault of the far right nutjobs in the House who have decided that they absolutely must take down Obamacare - which, at this point, is so clearly about nothing more than personal spite, because now that it's up and running, all signs point to the ACA actually being a beneficial thing - even if it means destroying the country's economy again. This is essentially economic terrorism, and I don't see anyone blaming "both sides" for 9/11.



Oh yea, well, you know what... you're right.

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/10/08/watc...lauds-shutdown/

Old Post 10-09-13 23:23 #
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Ladna
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DooMAD said:

In fairness, yes, your debt as a fraction of GDP is better now than it was in the mid '40s, but that won't last much longer. The problem is the rate at which your debt is increasing. Seems to be going up faster than your GDP can keep up.

And if you can find a way to trim 10% off your budget without pissing anyone off, I suggest you stand for president immediately. :p



Yeah I mean I know the main obstacle is politics. But you never get that impression from the raving doomsayers in the Republican party. The debt just isn't that bad, and I never want to hear about it again. "States rights" are a stand-in for slavery and bigotry, and forcing govt shrinkage by screaming about the debt is just another way to empower the states toward similar corrupt ends.

Old Post 10-10-13 00:14 #
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