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gggmork
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geo said:
There is no way out of this debt.

If America paid $1 million per day it would take 46,575 years. Oh but then there's interest. fuck forgot about that.



If this is true, doesn't it mean that someone lent america $1 million per day for 46,575 years? How did that happen?

If this society collapses I hope a voluntary society (anarchy) replaces it.

Old Post 10-17-13 06:25 #
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Captain Red
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holy fuck

Old Post 10-17-13 07:45 #
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GreyGhost
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The day of reckoning's been postponed until February 7th next year, at which point we'll no doubt see a re-run of this dog and pony show.

Old Post 10-17-13 08:07 #
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Jodwin
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gggmork said:
If this is true, doesn't it mean that someone lent america $1 million per day for 46,575 years? How did that happen?

$1 million is pennies for the US government

Old Post 10-17-13 08:26 #
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NiTROACTiVE
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Well guys, it looks like we're safe for now because the U.S. Congress has voted to end the government shutdown. You can read these articles for more information:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/16/...oid-debt-crisis
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/ameri...2387774904.html

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Old Post 10-17-13 13:51 #
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gggmork
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Only a few things were shut down as a political stunt to annoy and draw attention anyway. All the tyrannical stuff like the IRS was still running. The democrats and republicans are both lobbied (bribed) by the same exact bankers. The alternative media is the real thing to pay attention to and it seems some major movements are gaining memetic weight if the current system falls which might be soon:
1) free market/ voluntary society based on the non aggression principle/ anarchism. Its much more organized than the road warrior anarchy you might be thinking of. The government doesn't build roads anyway, people/companies do. See youtube channels like: redpillrecording, voluntaryvirtues0com, anarchast, larken rose's 'if you were king', stefbot's 'story of your enslavement', george donnelly, bitcoin, free state project, porcfest, etc
2) zeitgeist movement/ resource based economy. This tries to package itself as a shiny new system based on science, but it appears to have roots in communism/socialism. It seems centrally planned and thus force based/involuntary. #1 generally won debates against #2 in my opinion.
3) restore the bill of rights/constitution people (alex jones basically). I have no idea, this guy is so tactical and memetically and financially powerful I think he might be government funded, perhaps to steer all freedom movements back toward a new government instead of anarchy. But he often has killer rants and info and is very worth paying attention to (when he's not doing vile monkey insane stuff, which might even be on purpose as link bait).
4) if the above 3 are humans, elves and dwarves, #4 is the orcs, the parasitic tyrannical elite

There's like a cold information based war going on right now and it might become a hot war soon. And I really think major attacks on the economy are occurring for some political reason. Power plants shutting down, CEOs being installed to purposely destroy major systems (like ebay), internet kill switches, trying to ban firearms and one tyrannical law after another passed, obamacare, etc.

Old Post 10-17-13 14:53 #
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fraggle
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Captain Red said:
holy fuck
I like how he doesn't understand what "extracted" means.

That said though, he's completely right though - the political system is broken and until it's reformed these problems won't get fixed.

Old Post 10-17-13 18:14 #
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Technician
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GreyGhost said:
The day of reckoning's been postponed until February 7th next year, at which point we'll no doubt see a re-run of this dog and pony show.
Great, we still have time to bomb Syria.

Old Post 10-17-13 18:55 #
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geo
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gggmork said:


If this is true, doesn't it mean that someone lent america $1 million per day for 46,575 years? How did that happen?

If this society collapses I hope a voluntary society (anarchy) replaces it.



It just means we're 17 trillion in debt. I'm not sure if that debt is from accumulated interest like say I loan you $10, well then I tell you I'll give you back $15 to make it worth your time. Then I say sure I'll take your $15, but if you don't pay back my $15 I want $1 per day you don't give me my $15.

.... how many times was that done over America's history?

But really if America owes $17 trillion. Why not go more? No one stopped you before who will stop you now?

>>> That's why Obamacare is brilliant in a way. People pay into a system. Giving the government money. After the initial flood of every sick person getting taken care of, there will be less sick. Less sick, less hospital bills. Less hospital bills, the insurance company makes money $$$. This money goes into the Government instead of a private company. And since its almost mandatory and 'affordable' it will generate more money in the way that Walmart sells for less, but sells so much that they make more money. If the government sells you health care to another company they get a commission :-) Obamacare.... a ladder up from a bottomless hole.

Anarchy worked well in Sumalia.

Last edited by geo on 10-17-13 at 20:03

Old Post 10-17-13 19:34 #
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Technician
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geo said:
>>> That's why Obamacare is brilliant in a way. People pay into a system. Giving the government money.After the initial flood of every sick person getting taken care of, there will be less sick. Less sick, less hospital bills. Less hospital bills, the insurance company makes money $$$. This money goes into the Government instead of a private company.
Now just hold on a second; how does forking-out money into private insurance companies place it back into the government? If I understand Obamacare correctly, it simply forces you to buy health insurance.


geo said:
Anarchy worked well in Sumalia.
Somalia is an Islamic country. You can't have Islam without strict order.

Old Post 10-17-13 21:20 #
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geo
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Technician said:
Now just hold on a second; how does forking-out money into private insurance companies place it back into the government? If I understand Obamacare correctly, it simply forces you to buy health insurance.

Somalia is an Islamic country. You can't have Islam without strict order.



Commissions.

But Somalia is in disorder? Can there really be any countries in anarchy?

Country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.

Old Post 10-17-13 23:17 #
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geo said:
But Somalia is in disorder? Can there really be any countries in anarchy?

Country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.



It depends on how you define "anarchy". Some might say it is a form of government insofar as nobody's making the rules but yourself.

Really though, anarchy is a state in which there is a vacuum of power from a lack of government; hence anarchy is little more than a transitional period to another form of government and is certainly not sustainable. Therefore, Somalia is not a country. Confirmed.

Old Post 10-17-13 23:46 #
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Aliotroph?
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geo said:


Commissions.

But Somalia is in disorder? Can there really be any countries in anarchy?

Country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.



Somalia hasn't had a functioning government in control of the whole country in over 20 years.

Old Post 10-18-13 00:01 #
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geo
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Aliotroph? said:


Somalia hasn't had a functioning government in control of the whole country in over 20 years.



So anarchy?

Anarchy: a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

Old Post 10-18-13 00:41 #
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geo said:


So anarchy?

Anarchy: a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

The Al-Shabab, a Sunni militant group, imposes nothing but authority on the people on Somalia with their brand of Sharia.

Old Post 10-18-13 01:12 #
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GreyGhost
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geo said:
So anarchy?
Warlords and petty fiefdoms for the most part. I'd say total anarchy tends to be fairly short lived, before order is either restored by the old regime or imposed by a new one, which may start out as little more than an armed street gang with an ambitious leader.

Old Post 10-18-13 03:05 #
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geo
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So militant faction / street gangs = government? Understandable.

Old Post 10-18-13 03:27 #
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gggmork
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Crime is mostly the initiation of force/violence (not including self defense), and the state claims the exclusive right to do this, so it is a monopoly of crime over a geographic region. If you don't pay the state, despite never personally signing the constitution (that contract was only valid for those living at the time who agreed to it, unless you believe that "my children's children are allowed to rob you": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE ), and then try to defend yourself when they initiate force for your legitimate theft evasion they claim the right to cage/kill/etc you.

Everything the state does can evolve to be cheaper, more sophisticated and efficient by artificial selection free market forces of individuals voting with their money for businesses competing for it. Real anarchy isn't just lawlessness; the state is lawlessness because they initiate force and occasionally send large populations to concentration camps and attract sociopaths with no checks and balances. Defense agencies, arbitration and dispute resolution courts, firefighters, roads are all still possible. But in a free society solutions to all these problems are sold, not imposed. Anyone selling anything would need the voluntarily participation of paying customers, so a crazy war monger won't get much business, and whichever defense agency can convince people that they are trustworthy/etc might.

The free market is a 'genius' similar to biological evolution, and the state mostly impedes it. There would be no forced licenses, so anyone could just start selling alleged cures for cancer or whatever. Then some reputable agency might pop up that only vouches for ones it researches to be good/not a scam/etc, but consumers could voluntarily buy whatever they want. There'd be tons of competition and thus evolution in all branches of the economy. And it'd be so easy to become an entrepreneur with no artificial hurdles, and everyone would keep all their income without tax theft, that the monetary reward incentive to act as a normal cooperative player in the economy would outweigh any life of crime. Plus the general lack of corruption without things like compulsory education would make everyone more sane and happy. And things like drugs wouldn't even be crime, unless some people voluntarily agree that it should be or something. And who would voluntarily pay to fund prisons or the 'educational' adolescent prison system? Some people would still be bad and anarchy wouldn't be a utopia but how much worse is the state solution where the bad people are typically put at the top of hierarchies? Voluntary ways to punish people exist like ostracize them/ don't do business with them. Maybe few or no companies would offer to sell electricity to a murderer unless they try to come clean by doing whatever the arbitration agency suggested like work for x years to pay the family of the victim.

The power vacuum threat would mostly come from other states I think since they still force everyone to pay them so have lots of illegitimate power and money, but everyone in the free society could have whatever weapons or fund whatever defensive solutions they wanted, plus all the freedom would progress technology much more rapidly than the other artificially stunted state economies, giving them superior defense and offense.

Old Post 10-18-13 11:22 #
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Quast
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gggmork said:
The government doesn't build roads anyway, people/companies do.

The federal government gives monies to state governments which subcontract and pay private companies to do major road work, though general maintenance and snow removal is generally left to the state and/or counties.

I'm not sure what your point is really. Putting aside the fact that public roads are public, a private company isn't going to do any of these things regarding roads without government contracts and money anyway. There is no profit in it unless all major roadways become tolled, and tolled to such an extent that they can subsidize the cost of repair and maintenance and snow removal of the 100s of thousands of miles of lesser traveled roadways lest those fall into complete disrepair.

Old Post 10-18-13 21:55 #
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gggmork said:
the initiation of force/violence (not including self defense), and the state claims the exclusive right to do this

As it should. Because if it doesn't then some other private entity will.


There would be no forced licenses, so anyone could just start selling alleged cures for cancer or whatever. Then some reputable agency might pop up that only vouches for ones it researches to be good/not a scam/etc, but consumers could voluntarily buy whatever they want.

Um, in this magical fantasy land what would stop pharmaceutical corporations from creating their own "reputable agencies" to vouch for them regardless of product quality and safety? What's to stop large companies colluding together to drive smaller upstarts and competitors out of business?


plus all the freedom would progress technology much more rapidly than the other artificially stunted state economies, giving them superior defense and offense.


Technological advance would grind to a halt without a sizable technologically educated populace. This isn't even considering just how many advances have been made as a direct result of goverment programs and funding. Much of which doesn't always have immediate or apparent economic benefit. The internet sure as hell didn't.

Fuck, if we lived in your free world we'd still be driving around in 10mpg leaded death machines.

Old Post 10-18-13 22:35 #
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minigunner
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geo said:
So militant faction / street gangs = government? Understandable.

Only on a local scale. On the "national" scale, the people with the most influence on the government will become the new government (read: several corporations and probably the banks will establish an authoritarian government). Expect debtors' prisons (where people pay back their debts via forced labor) and pennies-a-day starter jobs, among other things.

At least with the government opened back up and the debt ceiling raised, such a fate has been delayed. :P

Old Post 10-18-13 22:50 #
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Gez
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gggmork said:
Everything the state does can evolve to be cheaper, more sophisticated and efficient by artificial selection free market forces of individuals voting with their money for businesses competing for it.

Competition can only result in one thing: competition.

Notably, the very mindset of cooperation is incompatible with a purely market-driven society. People's mindset becomes that everyone else is either a weak to be preyed upon, or a threat to be undermined. There is no "win/win" in competition, there is only "win/lose". A competitor is approaching you with a win/win proposition? It's a scam. He's trying to scam you.


gggmork said:
But in a free society solutions to all these problems are sold, not imposed.

No money? Then you can't buy a solution, which means you are free to be harvested by those with money for any sort of purpose.


gggmork said:
There'd be tons of competition and thus evolution in all branches of the economy. And it'd be so easy to become an entrepreneur with no artificial hurdles, and everyone would keep all their income without tax theft, that the monetary reward incentive to act as a normal cooperative player in the economy would outweigh any life of crime.

No, it wouldn't be easy to become an entrepreneur. It wouldn't be easy because the already-established Fat Cats and Top Dogs wouldn't make it easy.

Large corporations are already responsible for hindering any research that would threaten their interests. Some nobody with bright ideas for revolutionary innovations that could challenge the status quo and topple a large company? Well, best case scenario, his ideas are bought and patented and then get to sleep in a drawer forever. Worst case scenario, a gang of thugs is send to kill him and burn everything.


gggmork said:
The power vacuum threat would mostly come from other states I think since they still force everyone to pay them so have lots of illegitimate power and money, but everyone in the free society could have whatever weapons or fund whatever defensive solutions they wanted, plus all the freedom would progress technology much more rapidly than the other artificially stunted state economies, giving them superior defense and offense.

Yeah, sure, a population without education and with readily-available drugs would certainly progress a lot faster than all others. After all, just look at Nobel Prizes, Fields Medals, and other such distinctions: practically all the recipient are noted illiterate junkies.

People in your free society would never fund any sort of common defenses anyway. They'd use their money to turn their house into a bunker, but that's all. Defending infrastructures? Protecting the entire city? But that's crazy talk! What are you, communist? There'd be poor people who'd benefit from it! My money would be used to reward those lazy good-for-nothing loiterers. Of course, they'd need to turn their houses into a bunker lest they be harvested for organ donations and whatever else by their friendly neighbors.


Quast said:
There is no profit in it unless all major roadways become tolled, and tolled to such an extent that they can subsidize the cost of repair and maintenance and snow removal of the 100s of thousands of miles of lesser traveled roadways lest those fall into complete disrepair.

Roadways without enough traffic to be profitable would be sold or abandoned entirely. A business is never going to subsidize an unprofitable segment.

Old Post 10-19-13 14:04 #
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gggmork
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Gez said:

Competition can only result in one thing: competition.

Notably, the very mindset of cooperation is incompatible with a purely market-driven society. People's mindset becomes that everyone else is either a weak to be preyed upon, or a threat to be undermined. There is no "win/win" in competition, there is only "win/lose". A competitor is approaching you with a win/win proposition? It's a scam. He's trying to scam you.



Every voluntary trade, such as cash for a product or service is cooperation where both parties benefit. I can just hand someone a dollar for a pack of 10 pens and don't have to personally manufacture them. I'd rather have the pens; he'd rather have the dollar, both benefit. And there's a saying (I learned it from alex jones, heh heh) "a rising tide raises all ships", as a metaphor for the economy. Like imagine if anyone could compete to create places to live (rent is probably the biggest expense for people). They don't have artificial barriers to entry like 100,000 dollar licenses and don't have to comply with regulations like being forced onto the conventional electric or plumbing grid etc. People would be free to create their own houses without even paying anyone and could use solar or whatever evolves on the free market. If nobody respects plumbing and shitting outdoors becomes a hygiene problem, well now many potential buyers would have demand to solve that problem and thus be willing to voluntarily pay some seller to come up w/ a solution. Anyway, from much cheaper housing/technology/energy/etc everyone would save lots of money. You can maybe 'prove' the economy isn't a zero sum game (though I don't 100% understand that term.. I think potential for winning/losing/draw has to add up to 0, whatever) by just observing that EVERYONE in modern times 'wins' relative to everyone in hunter/gatherer times such as being able to make phone calls, the internet, cars, etc which weren't available then.
But you could be right.. I don't know, what would you prefer, minarchism? resource based zeitgeist type economy? A whole society/civilization is incredibly complex so anyone who claims to predict what would be best or what would theoretically happen by replacing this society by their pet society of choice is probably bullshitting (like me for example.. but I am, uh, energized by lots of youtube propaganda, heh heh).


Gez said:

No money? Then you can't buy a solution, which means you are free to be harvested by those with money for any sort of purpose.


Nobody would be forced to invest in the government tax pseudo charity, so anyone could invest in any charity on the free market with their extra money from 'the tide raising all ships' and extra money that would have been taxed in a statist 'human labor farming' society. Maybe some 'teach a man to fish, rather than give them a fish' type charity would evolve to be most fit. But like you yourself are worried about the plight of the poor, and there would be others with similar worry, and thus there is buyer demand to solve this problem and willing to voluntarily pay for a solution. Not that the statist paradigm is doing particularly well with this issue.


Gez said:

No, it wouldn't be easy to become an entrepreneur. It wouldn't be easy because the already-established Fat Cats and Top Dogs wouldn't make it easy.

Large corporations are already responsible for hindering any research that would threaten their interests. Some nobody with bright ideas for revolutionary innovations that could challenge the status quo and topple a large company? Well, best case scenario, his ideas are bought and patented and then get to sleep in a drawer forever. Worst case scenario, a gang of thugs is send to kill him and burn everything.


In the statist paradigm all these fat cats can use the monopoly of violence, government, which forces everyone to pay it so has unlimited disposable income (especially by legalizing counterfitting for itself in the federal reserve), to attack competing start ups. In a free market, starbucks probably wouldn't have tanks because that'd be a business cost, and if people become aware they can voluntarily stop doing business with a war mongering coffee business. Starbucks could pay a free market defense business to go harass/kill/extinguish competing start ups, but people wouldn't be forced to pay that defense agency and when they learn of such behavior (though they'd try to be secret about it) they can vote with their dollars for a different defense business. So an evil defense business can't accumulate tons of money because nobody is forced to pay it like government.
I see one potential problem that 'voting with dollars' counts dollars not people, so a billionaire has a lot of votes.



Gez said:

Yeah, sure, a population without education and with readily-available drugs would certainly progress a lot faster than all others. After all, just look at Nobel Prizes, Fields Medals, and other such distinctions: practically all the recipient are noted illiterate junkies.

People in your free society would never fund any sort of common defenses anyway. They'd use their money to turn their house into a bunker, but that's all. Defending infrastructures? Protecting the entire city? But that's crazy talk! What are you, communist? There'd be poor people who'd benefit from it! My money would be used to reward those lazy good-for-nothing loiterers. Of course, they'd need to turn their houses into a bunker lest they be harvested for organ donations and whatever else by their friendly neighbors.


Statist 'education' focuses on forced alleged teaching (hierarchical/authority based) rather than learning (individual curiosity based) and basically forces everyone to have their children adopted and raised by the state. On the free market maybe everyone would learn that autodidactism is best and have little demand for authority based education. A bird evolved wings so it flies, that's just what it does and likes to do and evolved to do. Similar with human brains, we like to learn and think when we aren't in what john taylor gatto describes as a very short container with a tight lid full of fleas conditioning them that jumping is useless.
Maybe you're right that nobody would pay for mutual defense, I don't know. Maybe the idea of weapons and such wouldn't even evolve to be the best free market solution. Like maybe information warfare of truth could just annihilate anything else. But like if china sends a nuke or starts a propaganda campaign etc, people's demand would change in support of mutual defense I guess.


Gez said:

Roadways without enough traffic to be profitable would be sold or abandoned entirely. A business is never going to subsidize an unprofitable segment.


But that doesn't matter cuz we'd have flying cars and teleportation, duh! Businesses would have to sell solutions to REMOVE the roads. I forgot what nature looked like under them.

But seriously, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Old Post 10-19-13 16:35 #
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gggmork said:
But seriously, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Well, yeah.


Like imagine if anyone could compete to create places to live (rent is probably the biggest expense for people). They don't have artificial barriers to entry like 100,000 dollar licenses and don't have to comply with regulations like being forced onto the conventional electric or plumbing grid etc. People would be free to create their own houses without even paying anyone and could use solar or whatever evolves on the free market.


First of all, a new house doesn't have to be hooked up to the electrical grid or water/sewer if the homeowner would want it that way. Secondly, you're free to put solar panels up at well unless you voluntarily enter into a contract with a HOA that dissaproves.

Thirdly and most importantly, professional contractors need licensing, bonding and insurance to prove that they know what they're doing (have had an apprenticeship/schooling/training etc.) and that if they do fuck up they can be held liable for property damage or injury. And these things do not cost 100 grand fyi.

What if some chucklefuck electrician off the street improperly wires your house and it burns to the ground 3 or 4 or 5 years down the road? He's made his money and moved on. The entire building sector would be nothing but fly-by-nights. Why should the homeowner be responsible for someone elses bad workmanship and our societal lack of oversight?


People would be free to create their own houses without even paying anyone and could use solar or whatever evolves on the free market. If nobody respects plumbing and shitting outdoors becomes a hygiene problem, well now many potential buyers would have demand to solve that problem and thus be willing to voluntarily pay some seller to come up w/ a solution.



Trust me, when it comes to dealing with homeowners and their property 9 out of 10 want everything done as cheap as possible. Cutting every corner possible with cheap materials and sketchy building practices often just skirting code and regulation as it is. Take that away and we can all sit back and watch new houses crumble and burn.

Old Post 10-19-13 18:55 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Quast said:

Trust me, when it comes to dealing with homeowners and their property 9 out of 10 want everything done as cheap as possible. Cutting every corner possible with cheap materials and sketchy building practices often just skirting code and regulation as it is. Take that away and we can all sit back and watch new houses crumble and burn.



I think if people are interested in owning property, they should become familiar with some construction themselves. If not prior knowledge, this is something they should pick-up while owning the property. At the very least it should be learned to simply maintain the property without having to spend a ton on outside help. A lot of skilled blue-collar people that work with their hands, tend to have very nice homes, because A: they know what they're doing when it comes to construction. B: Since they don't have to pay out of their nose; they have the extra cash to invest in improving their homes.

But when it comes to anything electrical, you really should call a professional. You don't want to risk burning down your home, as part of the learn process.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 10-21-13 at 15:50

Old Post 10-21-13 15:42 #
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geo
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Quast said:


Trust me, when it comes to dealing with homeowners and their property 9 out of 10 want everything done as cheap as possible. Cutting every corner possible with cheap materials and sketchy building practices often just skirting code and regulation as it is. Take that away and we can all sit back and watch new houses crumble and burn.



Yeah, my parents own a bunch of houses and it seems like the shit in the new homes need replacing and yet the homes from 1960s are built to last. People seem to want to buy cheap then fix it up over the years to make it their own instead of buy perfect houses.

Several times in my area I've seen people buy $100,000 bank foreclosures, fix it up, make everything wonderful and try to sell it for $350,000 when all the other houses in the neighborhood are $150,000. Good call pro flippers.

Old Post 10-21-13 16:45 #
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geo said:


Yeah, my parents own a bunch of houses and it seems like the shit in the new homes need replacing and yet the homes from 1960s are built to last. People seem to want to buy cheap then fix it up over the years to make it their own instead of buy perfect houses.

Several times in my area I've seen people buy $100,000 bank foreclosures, fix it up, make everything wonderful and try to sell it for $350,000 when all the other houses in the neighborhood are $150,000. Good call pro flippers.



You'll always pay top dollar for the perfect home. That's why it's smart to buy a house that you can make improvements on. You can spend 10 Gs to improve the kitchens and bathrooms, and increase the home's worth 3 fold.(guess-timation here). You could turn a $10,000 investment into a $100,000, if you sell when the market is up.

Like I said in a previous post, blue-collar people that are handy, tend to make improving and flipping homes a viable way to make money for retirement.

Old Post 10-21-13 18:22 #
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DooMAD
Bitcoin IS a religion.


Posts: 1509
Registered: 07-02


It seems while the shutdown was happening, there was notable manipulation of the gold markets in an attempt to bolster the US economy. If you want the full details and don't mind spending a bit of time trying to make sense of it, read here. The basic gist of it is that there was a 2-million-ounce (56.7 million grams) gold futures sell order which halted trading for 10 seconds and drove gold prices to a 3 month low.

I'm going to make two predictions. Firstly, that sell off will have come from one of your "too big to fail" banks. And second, your "regulators" will turn a blind eye, assuming they're even looking into it at all.

It's all one big fraud.

//EDIT: Actually, three predictions. This won't be mentioned on any of your news reports on TV.

Last edited by DooMAD on 10-21-13 at 18:41

Old Post 10-21-13 18:36 #
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GreyGhost
I have a custom title now!


Posts: 8857
Registered: 01-08



gggmork said:
So an evil defense business can't accumulate tons of money because nobody is forced to pay it like government.
What's to stop an evil defense business from operating a Mafia-style protection racket?


But that doesn't matter cuz we'd have flying cars and teleportation, duh! Businesses would have to sell solutions to REMOVE the roads. I forgot what nature looked like under them.
We'll more likely be walking on the road's crumbling remains while nature reclaims it from the edges. Nobody in their right mind's going to pay for a disused roads removal.

Old Post 10-22-13 03:38 #
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schwerpunk
Senior Member


Posts: 2067
Registered: 05-12


All this anarcho-capitalist stuff sounds great until you realize how uninformed and lazy the average consumer is. They're positively ripe for manipulation. I know that view makes me a pessimist, but that's just what I see.

Old Post 10-22-13 04:15 #
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