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hardcore_gamer
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It is driving me insane. I am talking about people who are so concerned with trying to benefit/profit as much as they can, that they basically fail to understand that sometimes the well being of somebody else can actually overlap with their own well being, and as a result they have a painfully simplistic idea of how society should be run. This can take many forms, like people stating that the government should not do this or that for group X because its unfair if only that groups gets help, even though the reason group X is being helped in the first place is because it indirectly (or directly) helps the rest or the colletive good.

Now, I understand that sometimes the government does things that can and should be subject to criticism, but it really is oboxious how some people don't appear even remotely able to see anything that isn't right in front of their noses and will always seek to do only what is the most instantly profitable while disregarding all other concerns (which in the long term, might actually end up costing them).

Why do you think lots of people are like this? And what do you think could be done to possibly fix this problem?

Old Post 02-08-14 13:05 #
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Phml
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Lack of education. Education. I think beyond a certain level of intelligence, it's impossible not to see what you're saying, and at the same time this is the kind of realisation that cannot be taught, so the best thing you can do is give people the tools to understand and the drive to learn.

Old Post 02-08-14 14:36 #
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_bruce_
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Collective good - sounds quite sheepish to me. I kinda understand your concerns but instant gratification and greed are partly hard wired and partly fostered by our system.
Do you think the common man and woman know REAL history, think about it, question it, extrapolate possible options and make a choice which is a good blend of personal profit and social profit...

dream on.

The government serves its own interest, not the one of the people unless its fickle collectivists with a beehive mentality.
Support for certain groups from the government never serves a group but mostly a distant goal of the government. When that goal is reached the group gets purged - no more use for it.

Similarly, during revolutions the first people getting killed are the low/medium tier ones who supported the cause.

I only support, after a test phase, what is good for me and the people I love/like.

Old Post 02-08-14 15:09 #
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Krispy
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hardcore_gamer said:
Why can't everyone just be more like me?

This is what I read while browsing the 'Everything else' section.

Old Post 02-08-14 15:15 #
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Shaviro
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Some examples would be great. The post is kinda useless without them.
Otherwise you might as well say "Why can't people see that 2 + 2 equals 4". Nobody is going to say "Well I certainly hate things that are good for everyone".

Old Post 02-08-14 15:25 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Shaviro said:
Some examples would be great.


People who want to end state education on the bases of that its not other peoples concern if others have education or not would be a good example. If somebody's lack of education only affected that person it would be a valid argument, but since basic education is needed for a modern industrial society to even work it is everybody's business if someone has basic education or not, since utterely unedcated people are a burden on society.

Another example is welfare for poor people. While I do agree there has to be limits to how much free shit people can get from the state, there are benefits from making sure people can afford basic goods. Large hordes of starving people are dangerous, and can thus result in increased crime and social instabability, and thus making sure everyone has at least a basic standard of living can both increase social stabability and lower crime, but because those things are indirect benefits to others rather then direct benefits, the self-serving people just ignore this or don't get it, and just whine about how someone else is unfairly getting something they aren't.

What short sighted and enitirely self-serving individuals don't understand is the concept of indirect benefit. Or that is, the idea that while somebody getting X from the state may not benefit them directly, because that person or group now has X they can do something which ends up indirectly benefiting that person anyways. But lots of people only think in terms of "ME ME ME ME ME!" and thus don't see this.

Old Post 02-08-14 15:34 #
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Shaviro
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This is a weird argument.
We're not really discussing this with any of those people and you are most likely misrepresenting their opinions. Maybe some of them are idiots, maybe others have alternative ideas to reach the same goal. In my experience, people who have edgy, alternative or downright controversial opinions have more often than not put more thought into the subject matter than people who generally go with the flow. That doesn't make their opinions right and the ideas sound, but saying that just because they don't support the same type of system doesn't mean they don't want the greater good for everyone.

I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just a really weird post and I'm not entirely sure what we should be arguing about?

Old Post 02-08-14 15:43 #
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_bruce_
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Wake up, grow up, find yourself - state education serves the state's agenda and not your, or other people's, free will.
Think of history that's taught in schools and universities. Top that off with other indoctrination tactics and you're in for a treat.

And if you still don't get it...

"Hell is full of good intentions or desires."
Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1091-1153)

Old Post 02-08-14 15:47 #
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Jayextee
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'Murrica did such a great job with anti-Communism propaganda, that anything even appearing close to the idea is seen of a threat. Good going, Capitalism.

Old Post 02-08-14 15:59 #
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_bruce_
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Jayextee said:
'Murrica did such a great job with anti-Communism propaganda, that anything even appearing close to the idea is seen of a threat. Good going, Capitalism.


"America", the American taxpayer to be more specific, helped "communism" to survive and prosper. It was a smoke and mirrors battle to divide the masses and have fractions to wage war.
Also in communism there's no centralized state - so we're more likely speaking about socialism.

Old Post 02-08-14 16:33 #
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myk
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Shaviro said:
We're not really discussing this with any of those people and you are most likely misrepresenting their opinions. Maybe some of them are idiots, maybe others have alternative ideas to reach the same goal.
Actually, idiot is the perfect word, if you take note of where it comes from etymologically. And there are idiot policies that are rather deliberate and are ruining the lives of many people in many nations around the world, which in Scandinavia you're fortunately avoiding to a good degree.

Note also that you criticized the vagueness in what hardcore_gamer said, but what about what _bruce_ says, and how he avoids that private education is also serving its own interests, even more immediately, and hardly has the types of checks and balances or oversight possible in public education? For one, if you consider the principle of universality of science, education needs to be as ample and inclusive as possible, and that's going to fail where it turns into intellectual merchandise.

Old Post 02-08-14 17:32 #
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_bruce_
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myk said:
Actually, idiot is the perfect word, if you take note of where it comes from etymologically. And there are idiot policies that are rather deliberate and are ruining the lives of many people in many nations around the world, which in Scandinavia you're fortunately avoiding to a good degree.

Note also that you criticized the vagueness in what hardcore_gamer said, but what about what _bruce_ says, and how he avoids that private education is also serving its own interests, even more immediately, and hardly has the types of checks and balances or oversight possible in public education? For one, if you consider the principle of universality of science, education needs to be as ample and inclusive as possible, and that's going to fail where it turns into intellectual merchandise.



No avoidance - unlike public education, private is a club which you do not have to enter unless you chose to. If you do, choose wisely.

Try discussing "hot" topics at school or university and you will see that "discussion" is quickly muted unless it benefits the investors of said institution.

What is your link trying to prove, beside a nice catchphrase that underlines the UN's agenda?

Old Post 02-08-14 18:12 #
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Shaviro
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myk said:
Actually, idiot is the perfect word, if you take note of where it comes from etymologically. And there are idiot policies that are rather deliberate and are ruining the lives of many people in many nations around the world, which in Scandinavia you're fortunately avoiding to a good degree.


I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Educated, professional people also have different opinions and ideals. You don't have to be stupid/ignorant/uneducated to have a different world view.


myk said:
Note also that you criticized the vagueness in what hardcore_gamer said, but what about what _bruce_ says


What about it? If you feel the need to "correct" him, do so. I'm not making a review of the thread and every post in it, I'm trying to fish out the point of the thread. As it is now, it paints a picture of "Look at these idiots. Aren't they stupid?" without any kind of honest attempt at fairly illustrating their points.

Old Post 02-08-14 18:32 #
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fraggle
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How old are the people in question? I'm guessing early to mid 20s.

Old Post 02-08-14 19:10 #
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myk
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Personally, I meet more people with ages of around 60 with ideas that tend in that direction than people with only 20.


_bruce_ said:
No avoidance - unlike public education, private is a club which you do not have to enter unless you chose to. If you do, choose wisely.
Which makes it fine as an appendix of public education, but will drive people out of education when it displaces the central role of public institutions. Cost-cutting to enhance profit will do that. Having an educated population is not profitably sustainable as a business, and education must thrive without gain or at a deficit because its benefits are longer term social functions that make all of the wealth making possible in the fist place. You may like your private education and be proud of it, but if you start deriding public education as brainwashing for the rabble, you're singling yourself out as an elitist snob. Privileges are less malign as long as you can guarantee rights.


Try discussing "hot" topics at school or university and you will see that "discussion" is quickly muted unless it benefits the investors of said institution.
No doubt, which is why we're better off financing most of our education with institutions that are open to the influence of the general population and not just select groups, through elective representation and public finances.


What is your link trying to prove, beside a nice catchphrase that underlines the UN's agenda?
The link between institutions that aim for inclusive education and the principles of science. The educational policies in an economy where the aims are read in welfare (health, shelter, access to information and general opportunities for the vulnerable) indexes, not ones obsessed with inflation, or State profit and commerce balances, which are at best means that are subordinate to the former.


Shaviro said:
Educated, professional people also have different opinions and ideals.
Of course educated people have different ideas, I'd say that's an essential aspect of better education. I tied the root origins of the word idiot specifically with the ideological "mind your own business and profit" tendency hardcore_gamer questioned. It's about the best word against that type of ideas. Other ideologies may require different insults to be just as suitable! Calling someone whose ideas we don't like that has keen public concerns an idiot would be a bit ironic, at least.


If you feel the need to "correct" him, do so. I'm not making a review of the thread and every post in it, I'm trying to fish out the point of the thread.
In this world where 85 people have the same wealth as half the planet and about half the wealth of the world is in the hands of 1% of the population, are we really in a position to dismiss hardcore_gamer's comment as a mere generalization? I think it's a good starting point, if anything.

Old Post 02-08-14 19:47 #
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ducon
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It depends on what you call collective interest. If it the "collective interest" of the working class and the share holders, I laugh.

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Old Post 02-08-14 20:09 #
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Ed
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Perspective is funny, you can take a couple of steps to the left or right and something you're looking at can look completely different. Most of what separates people politically is almost always a matter of emotional perspective and rarely in hard facts. I personally believe in collectivism as an instinctual survival trait, but the loose aimlessness of an open society has a short life span. My biggest hope is for a society that collectively works towards sustaining the planet, ditches the monetary system as a whole, gold (shiny rock) standard or otherwise in favor of intellectual currency.. Education with an intent of providing a human being with a self sustaining life skill. (Never going to happen, I know).

The 'collective interest' is seemingly always bolstering a derived ism from yesterday's scholar and yesterday's problems. Karl Marx, Thomas Jefferson, Friedrich Nietzsche and Ayn Rand were obviously very intelligent and had some insights worth entertaining. I can't realistically believe any one of them were smart enough to know the best course of action to provide the greatest level of happiness for 7 billion relatively intelligent monkeys floating on a space rock.

Last edited by Ed on 02-08-14 at 23:26

Old Post 02-08-14 20:22 #
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Waffenak
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Because there is always friction caused by someone or something like in physics

Old Post 02-09-14 08:16 #
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AndrewB
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This is like reading a thread on a religious website asking "Why do gay people always want to convert straight people into being gay? That just seems incredibly selfish!"

Old Post 02-09-14 15:33 #
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Clonehunter
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Old Post 02-09-14 17:36 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Here's a fact, I'm getting screwed by the government on my tax return, and I'm not rich. I'm paying for the "collective-good", but I'm not seeing it. yea, yea, talk about traffic lights, and all that; but I'm really being hurt the fact that they have taken almost half of my income, and basically getting almost zero back. In the meantime, the super-rich, and poor, live off of my back; the middle class people. The U.S. tax system is a pile of shit that needs to be reformed.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 02-09-14 at 17:55

Old Post 02-09-14 17:48 #
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AndrewB
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When people are more highly paid with no job than they are with a medium-income-earning job ($45k), there are going to be problems.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content...1212welfare.jpg

Old Post 02-09-14 17:57 #
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Quast
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Kontra Kommando said:
Here's a fact, I'm getting screwed by the government on my tax return, and I'm not rich. I'm paying for the "collective-good", but I'm not seeing it. yea, yea, talk about traffic lights, and all that; but I'm really being hurt the fact that they have taken almost half of my income, and basically getting almost zero back. In the meantime, the super-rich, and poor, live off of my back; the middle class people. The U.S. tax system is a pile of shit that needs to be reformed.

So you made near, or over $1,000,000 last year (39.6% on taxable income over $400,000 unless you're married) and have to suffer with ~$600,000 net? Under no circumstances are you struggling to feed and clothe yourself. I made ~$26,000 last year, not on any assistance programs and I do well enough.

Old Post 02-09-14 19:28 #
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myk
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Ed said:
Most of what separates people politically is almost always a matter of emotional perspective and rarely in hard facts.
It may seem so in discussions within certain groups that share many values and views, like our friends and families or similar types of workers. You'll start to see that the differences are linked to concrete interests when you step out of such circles. Hard facts are mainly things people agree about, so the emotional aspect will always be important if there's a real conflict.


AndrewB said:
When people are more highly paid with no job than they are with a medium-income-earning job ($45k), there are going to be problems.
Most of it is linked to fundamentals and childcare, and it isn't clear about childcare or other benefits that workers may get. Many jobs in the US don't pay that well but are sought after because they offer better healthcare, so earned salaries don't say that much. And the salaries of workers also depend on the capacity of industries to drive them down, especially if strong unions don't offer opposition.

The State has to make sure kids grow up healthy or they'll end up being invalid citizens. It's a form of long term national investment that can't in many cases be covered by the labor market because it involves mothers and children.

Old Post 02-09-14 19:29 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Quast said:

So you made near, or over $1,000,000 last year (39.6% on taxable income over $400,000 unless you're married) and have to suffer with ~$600,000 net? Under no circumstances are you struggling to feed and clothe yourself. I made ~$26,000 last year, not on any assistance programs and I do well enough.



Where do you live where 26k a year is adequate to maintain yourself; was that your net income? (maybe I should move there)Like we all discussed in another thread, wealth is relative to location. Here, just to rent a piece of shit roach/bedbug infested hole in the ghetto costs about $800-$1000; then there's gas, electric, food, car insurance etc. Also, I didn't make a million last year, its closer to what AndrewB said for what is middle class; but somehow, uncle sam figures I don't deserve my tax return. In fact, I almost had to pay money back! One of the main reasons is because i had to defer my student loans due to the fact that I qualify for economic hardship. So while the government taxes me, and collects interests on my loans, it's perfectly okay for them to give me zero breaks. I really wish I could have received grants for attending college, but because I was employed, I had to get a loan instead. I probably would have been better off NOT working during college. I'm sorry, but all of this really seems fucked to me.

I'm not arguing that millionaires shouldn't pay their fair share, just that the gov't should cut some fuckin slack to the little people with taxes. Whenever you try to get your head above water, it seems like unlce sam wants to shove you back down, and drown you. I guess its for the collective good.

Last edited by Kontra Kommando on 02-09-14 at 23:29

Old Post 02-09-14 22:42 #
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Quast
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Kontra Kommando said:
Where do you live where 26k a year is adequate to maintain yourself; was that your net income? (maybe I should move there)

Rural north central mn. That is roughly my 2013 gross.


Also, I didn't make a million last year, its closer to what AndrewB said for what is middle class;


Then under no circumstances are you paying "almost half of my income" in taxes. So why would you say that?


but somehow, uncle sam figures I don't deserve my tax return.



In fact, I almost had to pay money back!


So...do you pay in or get a return? These statements contradict each other. Or have you chosen to put your return toward next years taxes? Do you have 0 deductions? There are 1001 legit ways to lessen your tax burden and not drawn the ire of the IRS.

2 Years ago I was laid off by my employer for about 8 or 9 weeks and I went and worked for another company during that time and thought nothing of it until tax time. I received a 1099 and not a w-2 from this secondary job. When I tried to file my taxes, the IRS wanted me to pay a rather large sum because I was considered to be a self-employed contractor and there are fees associated with that. Had I just bumbled through everything as I was I would've had to pay in close to 2 grand. I chose instead to get help in the matter and I ended up getting my return as usual because I was simply doing my taxes wrong. Little things like that can fuck people over.

Old Post 02-10-14 00:39 #
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Gokuma
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We suffer from "Tragedy of the commons" and psychotic fascist assholes screwing everything up.

Old Post 02-10-14 00:47 #
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Kontra Kommando
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Quast said:

Rural north central mn. That is roughly my 2013 gross.

[B]
Then under no circumstances are you paying "almost half of my income" in taxes. So why would you say that?

[B]
[B]
So...do you pay in or get a return? These statements contradict each other. Or have you chosen to put your return toward next years taxes? Do you have 0 deductions? There are 1001 legit ways to lessen your tax burden and not drawn the ire of the IRS.

2 Years ago I was laid off by my employer for about 8 or 9 weeks and I went and worked for another company during that time and thought nothing of it until tax time. I received a 1099 and not a w-2 from this secondary job. When I tried to file my taxes, the IRS wanted me to pay a rather large sum because I was considered to be a self-employed contractor and there are fees associated with that. Had I just bumbled through everything as I was I would've had to pay in close to 2 grand. I chose instead to get help in the matter and I ended up getting my return as usual because I was simply doing my taxes wrong. Little things like that can fuck people over.



Well, perhaps I'm going through something similar. But I'm sure you could appreciate my frustration with all this. I almost had to pay 2 Gs myself. It seems that the deferment of my student loans was the reason for my low return.

Old Post 02-10-14 01:38 #
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Maes
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hardcore_gamer said:
People who want to end state education on the bases of that its not other peoples concern if others have education or not would be a good example. If somebody's lack of education only affected that person it would be a valid argument, but since basic education is needed for a modern industrial society to even work it is everybody's business if someone has basic education or not, since utterely unedcated people are a burden on society.


Actually, it's not at all impossible to have a functioning society with a developed economy which does not educate its own populace for some tasks, or even at all.

An extreme example would be the various Arab Emirates, whose workforce, from menial to highly specialized, is composed almost entirely of foreigners, which are "imported" already educated & experienced for the tasks & mansions where they are required (without counting the literally hundreds of thousands of unskilled labourers who are sometimes quite literally imported like commodities). Yeah, all Emirates still do have a local populace, various levels of education or even universities, but realistically none of them aims to ever replace all the foreign workers with local workforce and graduates.

If you want a less extreme example of how you don't need to fully educate your workforce, check out what's going on in the Eurozone, where richer, less-affected (by the crisis) countries import already-educated workers and degree-holders from more crisis-struck countries. Switzerland is another example of a country whose economy and skilled (and unskilled) workforce alike was almost always composed by immigrants (or "expats", if you want a more "posh" term).

The savings in education for the receiving countries are massive, while the countries that spent money educating those professionals are at a net loss (OTOH, they'd have nothing to gain by fencing them in, but we'll have to see what will happen in Hungary after 2015, when the first graduates with a "fencing in" clause in their scholarships will start graduating. Maybe that will set a new precedent for the opposite policy).

Old Post 02-10-14 10:35 #
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GreyGhost
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Maes said:
An extreme example would be the various Arab Emirates, whose workforce, from menial to highly specialized, is composed almost entirely of foreigners, which are "imported" already educated & experienced for the tasks & mansions where they are required (without counting the literally hundreds of thousands of unskilled labourers who are sometimes quite literally imported like commodities). Yeah, all Emirates still do have a local populace, various levels of education or even universities, but realistically none of them aims to ever replace all the foreign workers with local workforce and graduates.
I'm waiting to see what happens as their oil reserves run dry and they start selling US Government bonds to pay their bills, probably go back to living in tents.

Old Post 02-10-14 11:11 #
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