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darknation
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188DarkRevived said:


Being from the south-eastern region of Ukraine I am disgusted by the efforts of the West to steal the naval base of the Russian Empire.
And Barack Obama, out of all people, should keep his filthy ass on his own damn continent instead of meddling in the affairs of others half-the-world away. He has no right to threaten Putin! He should focus on winning the respect of his own people which are slowly losing their respect for him. At least Putin is respected on his home turf and in a neighboring country.
Obama is a n00b in diapers compared to him!
Our business is our business. Foreigners should stay the fuck out of our conflict or we will let out our battle cries and they will hear us roar in our defense.
They better damn be scared, or else we'll make them sorry for ever daring to interfere.
If the US wants to expand its own navy then it should build one on its own instead of stealing someone else's.
My own father served in the Soviet army and he is disgusted by the egotistical imperialistic greed of the USA.

I almost forgot how completely mental you actually are. How goes the love life?

Old Post 03-02-14 01:44 #
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Gez
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Crimea isn't even Ukrainian, it was a Tatar land before Stalin genocided/deported them to replace them with Russians. Which is extremely convenient now.

Old Post 03-02-14 01:46 #
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Technician
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Sicamore said:
Where did you here that USA wants to steal naval bases? As far as the US is concerned, Russia is breaking international law and trying to gain control of Ukraine in order to heed their own survival. This has created a cold war front, and THAT is why the US is concerned. Not for some base and not for Ukraine. But for its stance in the world and future international relations.
America doesn't really care. If they did we'd be hearing about it, adamantly. They had real good reason to enter in Egypt, too, but refrained. Syria, as well. And Saudi Arabia pretty much begged them to. Besides, the West enters counties they feel they have a vested interest with. We call them "police actions." Iraq for example.


And you are acting like Putin is a saint - no right to threaten him? Really? The whole world is watching as this crazy idiot tries desperately to take Ukraine. The "threats" are mostly questions regarding his understanding of what he is doing. Although Russia does have a past of these things, does he really not know what he is getting into here?
He knows exactly what he's doing. You keep implying he'll be reprimanded. He won't.

Old Post 03-02-14 01:54 #
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Sicamore
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I highly doubt the world will just let Putin go along with his plan. If it does, something is wrong here. Very wrong.


Technician said:
America doesn't really care. If they did we'd be hearing about it, adamantly.


I'm sure America cares. It's all I've been seeing, especially if it regards Russia.

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 02:21

Old Post 03-02-14 02:14 #
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myk
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This century, no real measures were taken internationally to create a more evenly regionalized and egalitarian world. I certainly don't think either the US or Russia have helped much in that respect. Don't be surprised if the cold war lives on.


Sicamore said:
Also America doesn't need Russian base tech; they have better and newer things back home, regarding your original statement.
The tech has nothing to do with it. In any case, it would be displacing Russia's influence over the Black Sea.

Old Post 03-02-14 02:22 #
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Sicamore
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myk said:

The tech has nothing to do with it. In any case, it would be displacing Russia's influence over the Black Sea. [/B]


Yes, what an embarrassing mistake. Heh.

EDIT: But this

"If the US wants to expand its own navy then it should build one on its own instead of stealing someone else's."

Old Post 03-02-14 02:26 #
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188DarkRevived
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darknation said:
I almost forgot how completely mental you actually are. How goes the love life?

My spider-sense was telling me that upon seeing my name you would instantly remember something totally irrelevant to this topic and spam the damn thread.
Congratulations on making yourself look like the autistic spammer and making me look like the normal poster for a change. :p This time around I can actually report you for spam.

Anyways, I never said that Putin was a saint. I simply said that he has the right to protect his property, just like Obama would have the right to protect something like Pearl Harbour.
Why people keep twisting my words around I have no idea.

Politicians are people, and just like all other people they make mistakes. Putin has his own shortcomings, but at least he's not a hypocrite and not a thief.
His forces didn't "invade" Crimea. On the contrary, they were welcomed with consent and open arms by people like my grandmother.

Old Post 03-02-14 02:29 #
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Sicamore
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188DarkRevived said:

I simply said that he has the right to protect his property



What property? And if Toronto wanted American troops to come on Canadian soil today, does that mean that they can just arrive with over a hundred tanks, simply because Toronto said so?

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 02:41

Old Post 03-02-14 02:30 #
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Memfis
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188DarkRevived said:
Putin has his own shortcomings, but at least he's not a hypocrite and not a thief.

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Old Post 03-02-14 02:38 #
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188DarkRevived
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Sicamore said:

What property? If Toronto wanted American troops to come on Canadian soil today, does that mean that they can just arrive with over a hundred tanks, simply because Toronto said so?



As far as analogies go, how about this: If the parliament of Quebec suddenly wanted to make a new law that all the citizens of Canada should be speaking in French and that the use of the English language should be illegal, how do you think half of Canada would react to this?
There are tons of people in provinces like Saskechewan and Alberta who don't even know a single word in French.
In Ukraine there is a very similar scenario, where some citizens (like my grandmother) only know how to speak Russian and don't speak any Ukrainian. Such people need for their language to remain as the second official language of the country. But the new leaders of Kiev are being idiots and trying to ban the use of Russian language entirely.
Personally, I can speak both of those languages, so I wouldn't be hurt by such a law and shouldn't care. But it's nice to care about others sometimes.

Old Post 03-02-14 02:46 #
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myk
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Sicamore said:
If Toronto wanted American troops to come on Canadian soil today, does that mean that they can just arrive with over a hundred tanks, simply because Toronto said so?
Check out the long list of US military bases and interference where I live. You've lucky enough to live far away from the US (which isn't always enough to avoid the problem anyway), but unlucky enough to be right next to Russia.

Old Post 03-02-14 02:46 #
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Sicamore
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myk said:
Check out the long list of US military bases and interference where I live. You've lucky enough to live far away from the US (which isn't always enough to avoid the problem anyway), but unlucky enough to be right next to Russia.


I believe those are approved by the host government, but correct me if I am wrong. And regardless, it does not justify what Russia is doing. Both are bad things.

Old Post 03-02-14 02:48 #
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188DarkRevived said:


As far as analogies go, how about this: If the parliament of Quebec suddenly wanted to make a new law that all the citizens of Canada should be speaking in French and that the use of the English language should be illegal, how do you think half of Canada would react to this?
There are tons of people in provinces like Saskechewan and Alberta who don't even know a single word in French.
In Ukraine there is a very similar scenario, where some citizens (like my grandmother) only know how to speak Russian and don't speak any Ukrainian. Such people need for their language to remain as the second official language of the country. But the new leaders of Kiev are being idiots and trying to ban the use of Russian language entirely.
Personally, I can speak both of those languages, so I wouldn't be hurt by such a law and shouldn't care. But it's nice to care about others sometimes.



There is a difference between "Canada makes the law and not Quebec", and "Quebec makes the law and not Canada". You have a majority here. And even then, would such an issue as language draw military intervention from a completely different country, regardless of language ties? They are claiming that Ukraine is hostile towards them, which is a lie, at least as of now. Also you didn't answer regarding property (please don't say Russian speakers to preserve your intelligence).

Old Post 03-02-14 02:59 #
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188DarkRevived
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Sicamore said:
I believe those are approved by the host government, but correct me if I am wrong. And regardless, it does not justify what Russia is doing. Both are bad things.


The person in charge of the host government in Ukraine at this very moment was not chosen through an official election that represented the views of all the citizens of the nation. Therefore, he does not have full power and can not make any declarations and laws for the entire territory of the country.
I say that the only way to solve this crisis is to split the country into two halves so that everyone can live happily ever after. And I have the right to say this because I have relatives and family living there and I have lived there myself at some point.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:02 #
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4shockblast
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188DarkRevived said:


As far as analogies go, how about this: If the parliament of Quebec suddenly wanted to make a new law that all the citizens of Canada should be speaking in French and that the use of the English language should be illegal, how do you think half of Canada would react to this?
There are tons of people in provinces like Saskechewan and Alberta who don't even know a single word in French.
In Ukraine there is a very similar scenario, where some citizens (like my grandmother) only know how to speak Russian and don't speak any Ukrainian. Such people need for their language to remain as the second official language of the country. But the new leaders of Kiev are being idiots and trying to ban the use of Russian language entirely.
Personally, I can speak both of those languages, so I wouldn't be hurt by such a law and shouldn't care. But it's nice to care about others sometimes.



I'm from East Ukraine as well, and, indeed, my grandma's sister who lives in Ukraine said something along the lines that she'd rather be bombed than be under pro-EU rule, which is likely an exaggeration, but it still demonstrates the support Russia has there. I wouldn't say that Sicamore is entirely wrong too; his side of the argument is the West Ukrainian side, and Putin certainly has no claims there.

Personally, the two parts of Ukraine don't seem to be able to coexist as one nation, so a split might actually be a good thing. From other examples in history like India and Pakistan, that probably won't cause violence to completely subside, but maybe some level of peace could be achieved.

I am concerned, however, that Putin will decide to go further.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:05 #
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Sicamore
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188DarkRevived said:


The person in charge of the host government in Ukraine at this very moment was not chosen through an official election that represented the views of all the citizens of the nation. Therefore, he does not have full power and can not make any declarations and laws for the entire territory of the country.
I say that the only way to solve this crisis is to split the country into two halves so that everyone can live happily ever after. And I have the right to say this because I have relatives and family living there and I have lived there myself at some point.



The Russo-Ukrainians can have their opinions and rights to how they want to live. I do agree. The problem is that Russia is essentially deciding here what to split or take. This is Ukraine's problem, and that is also why this enrages me so much. No one should have gotten involved. Not Russia, not America, and not Europe.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:06 #
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4shockblast
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Sicamore said:


The Russo-Ukrainians can have their opinions and rights to how they want to live. I do agree. The problem is that Russia is deciding here what to split or take. This is Ukraine's problem, and that is also why this enrages me so much. No one should have gotten involved. Not Russia, not America, and not Europe.



I agree there. Ideally, I'm for a Ukraine that's independent from Russia and the EU and the US. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be a choice here.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:08 #
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188DarkRevived
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Sicamore said:

The Russo-Ukrainians can have their opinions. The problem is that Russia is deciding here what to split or take. This is Ukraine's problem, and that is also why this enrages me so much. No one should have gotten involved. Not Russia, not America, and not Europe.



If both Putin and Obama will be able to make compromises and agree to divide the country into 2 halves instead of fully dragging it to either side, then they will both be regarded as heroes.
But if they fail to compromise and drag the entire country with disregard to the opinions of the citizens, then the violence can only continue.
It's sad but true. I don't enjoy seeing this any more than you do, believe me. My parents have been losing sleep because of this, and I hate to see them in such a tense state.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:10 #
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Sicamore
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188DarkRevived said:

If both Putin and Obama will be able to make compromises and agree to divide the country into 2 halves instead of fully dragging it to either side, then they will both be regarded as heroes.
But if they fail to compromise and drag the entire country with disregard to the opinions of the citizens, then the violence can only continue.



I still find it funny that a minority can divide a country in its own interests to merge with another, even if the President of that country is technically illegitimate. I hope no one will get divided, and instead a new Ukraine is born in which the interests of both sides can be equally respected. Ukrainians can still speak Russian and be Ukrainians; or vice versa. Both should feel like their country welcomes them and accommodates accordingly.


188DarkRevived said:

It's sad but true. I don't enjoy seeing this any more than you do, believe me. My parents have been losing sleep because of this, and I hate to see them in such a tense state.



Opinions aside, yes. Let's hope it ends for the better. People should be kept alive at any cost.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:15 #
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myk
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Sicamore said:
I believe those are approved by the host government, but correct me if I am wrong.
Most were installed in military dictatorships or their aftermaths and they're helping sustain governments and policies that neglect the poor and enrich the rich, which makes host countries cheaper in resource extraction or labor and less capable of being industrial rivals. They might be "approved" by the host governments, but they were forced on most of the population.


And regardless, it does not justify what Russia is doing. Both are bad things.
My point is the US and EU aren't really any better. Ideally, you guys shouldn't be infighting and should be making efforts at building a unified Ukraine out of all your differences, but as it is, Ukrainian Ukrainians and starting to see themselves as part of the EU, and Russian Ukrainians as part of Russia, and Ukraine is splitting. You're seeing a mini cold war within your country, and as long as you accuse each other and say, "the US and the EU are our friends", "no, Russia is", that will continue and get worse.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:18 #
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4shockblast
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myk said:


My point is the US and EU aren't really any better. Ideally, you guys shouldn't be infighting and should be making efforts at building a unified Ukraine out of all your differences, but as it is, Ukrainian Ukrainians and starting to see themselves as part of the EU, and Russian Ukrainians as part of Russia, and Ukraine is splitting. You're seeing a mini cold war within your country, and as long as you accuse each other and say, "the US and the EU are our friends", "no, Russia is", that will continue and get worse.



Unfortunately, this ideal is way out of reach right now. Ukraine is essentially two totally different entities shoved into one nation by the USSR (West Ukraine never belonged to the Russian Empire). It could probably take decades, if not more, for a rift like this to heal, and it's not going to heal with Russia and the EU pressuring changes that benefit them from either side. I currently cannot envision any series of events right now that would lead to a unified, independent Ukraine.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:26 #
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188DarkRevived
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Sicamore said:
I still find it funny that a minority can divide a country in its own interests to merge with another

Likewise, I find it somewhat odd how Quebec has entered into the Canadian Confederation and yet still has the nerve to conduct referendums regarding separation once in a few years.
If Quebec separates then I would actually be somewhat pissed after having spent so much effort to learn their damn language at college as a compulsory part of my program. Cause I just hate being forcefully taught something that I would have little probability of applying in my day-to-day life.


I hope no one will get divided, and instead a new Ukraine is born in which the interests of both sides can be equally respected. Ukrainians can still speak Russian and be Ukrainians; or vice versa.

I guess that both me and my dad would both be able to relax if that majestic navy fleet will belong to neither NATO nor anybody else and be its own fleet...
However, such a dream seems to be very naïve and foolish... In fact, some could say that it seems to be equally as naïve and foolish as one of my personal dreams regarding someone at my college. But I'd rather not talk about that one here again.
I'd rather just say: People have the right to believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of how foolish it is, and sometimes miracles can indeed happen.

Old Post 03-02-14 03:30 #
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myk
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4shockblast said:
I currently cannot envision any series of events right now that would lead to a unified, independent Ukraine.
Yeah, that's why I was saying East Europe needed to be its own bloc. It would have reinforced the interests of that part of Eurasia, acting as a gradual but stronger buffer between Russia and West Europe. But not surprisingly, from the years and years of pressures from both sides, it's tending toward balkanization (a word incidentally coined from a phenomenon in the Southwestern fringe of the region).

Old Post 03-02-14 03:39 #
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Sicamore
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4shockblast said:


I agree there. Ideally, I'm for a Ukraine that's independent from Russia and the EU and the US. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be a choice here.



Well, my statement was regarding decision making from those parties. As I said earlier, the problem is that Ukraine should be deciding and NOT any other country. It is their problem and their own internal conflict. I don't support siding with Russia personally, but that is the second question. If someone wants to split, they should take this issue up with their own country and not anyone else.

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 03:58

Old Post 03-02-14 03:53 #
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4shockblast
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Sicamore said:


Well, my statement was regarding decision making from those parties. As I said earlier, the problem is that Ukraine should be deciding and NOT any other country. It is their problem and their own internal conflict. I don't support siding with Russia personally, but that is the second question. If someone wants to split, they should take this issue up with their own country and not anyone else.



This is also unfortunately an ideal that's unreachable, both because of Russia and the EU pressuring Ukraine to become "allies," and because of the internal struggle between East and West Ukrainians being unable to compromise and accepting foreign involvement in their affairs.

Old Post 03-02-14 04:05 #
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Sicamore
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4shockblast said:


This is also unfortunately an ideal that's unreachable, both because of Russia and the EU pressuring Ukraine to become "allies," and because of the internal struggle between East and West Ukrainians being unable to compromise and accepting foreign involvement in their affairs.



In terms of accepting Russian assistance, I would say unmarked soldiers sort of barged in. I don't recall anybody asking them to come by, even if pro-Russians realized that they could be beneficial following their arrival. It was an invasion that would have been different if somebody asked for their help.

Old Post 03-02-14 04:08 #
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dew
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Gez said:
Crimea isn't even Ukrainian, it was a Tatar land before Stalin genocided/deported them to replace them with Russians. Which is extremely convenient now.

This is an oversimplification of the problem. Crimea was a Russian territory since the 17th century, I think, and they worked hard on populating it from the start. When World War 2 happened, Russians were at least as numerous as Tatars. Of course, at that time Tatars rrrrreally hated Russia for the repeated orchestrated famines (including the massive Holodomor that killed possibly as many Ukrainians as WW2), so it's no wonder they joined Hitler and fought the Red Army. Too bad they lost, eh. Stalin went 'zerk on them in his punishing nation shuffle. Ever since, Russians are the entirely dominant ethinicty in Crimea, but they never lagged behind the Tatars in head count in the modern history.



4shockblast said:
I currently cannot envision any series of events right now that would lead to a unified, independent Ukraine.

I still think at this point Putin is mostly about his precious Naval Base and retaining some influence over Crimea. He might back down if Ukraine bends its back and makes Crimea half-Ukrainian, half-Russian even legally.

Old Post 03-02-14 04:12 #
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4shockblast
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Sicamore said:


In terms of accepting Russian assistance, I would say unmarked soldiers sort of barged in. I don't recall anybody asking them to come by, even if pro-Russians realized that they could be beneficial following their arrival.



I'm not trying to defend Russia for entering Ukraine, but I'm merely trying to say that the reason Ukraine is not fully independent is a combination of both Russian and EU pressure (for example, Russia invading Crimea) and a lack of interest among the Ukrainian population to stay independent (for example, the Crimeans accepting Russian control).


dew said:


I still think at this point Putin is mostly about his precious Naval Base and retaining some influence over Crimea. He might back down if Ukraine bends its back and makes Crimea half-Ukrainian, half-Russian even legally.



Yes, I have serious doubts about Putin going further than Crimea or, at most, East Ukraine, but four months ago in November, I had serious doubts that what were some protests that happened to turn violent would escalate into a revolution, so it's very hard to judge the situation there. Things could spiral out of control very quickly in my opinion.

Old Post 03-02-14 04:16 #
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Sicamore
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4shockblast said:


Yes, I have serious doubts about Putin going further than Crimea or, at most, East Ukraine, but four months ago in November, I had serious doubts that what were some protests that happened to turn violent would escalate into a revolution, so it's very hard to judge the situation there. Things could spiral out of control very quickly in my opinion.

Edit: Sorry for the double post.



Let's hope it doesn't. Ukraine under the new government will defend itself if so, and although the retaliation will be weak, its not something Putin wants or anyone wants.

Old Post 03-02-14 04:21 #
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188DarkRevived
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From what I know, Russia is a supplier of natural gas to the rest of western Europe, and their main channel of distribution is Ukraine. Therefore, some compromises will have to be made by the west to make Putin happy in order for the natural gas to continue to be exported.
Hence why I'm really convinced that dividing the country will be the most realistic solution.

Old Post 03-02-14 04:54 #
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