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Satyr000
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Sicamore said:
Well, that's one question, but regardless of the ties they need, what gives a country the right to send troops onto the soil of another sovereign nation? I understand the political unrest, but Ukraine has a functioning government and is capable of solving their own issues right now. Yanukovich is no longer president, and his leave was 100% legitimate - no one wants that man in office, and him fleeing made him eligible for desertion of his position. They voted a new president in, so therefore Yanukovich no longer holds any authority.



That's a great question for the US government. Also, I do not in any way like the fact that the US government is even slightly involving themselves in this. The US government is look for any reason to start a conflict with Russia. Given the actions of the US gov over the past few years, they would love another opportunity to try to put another puppet government in power. No matter what side of the fence people the Ukraine stand on, asking the US gov for help shouldn't be an option.

Old Post 03-02-14 04:58 #
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4shockblast
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Satyr000 said:


That's a great question for the US government. Also, I do not in any way like the fact that the US government is even slightly involving themselves in this. The US government is look for any reason to start a conflict with Russia. Given the actions of the US gov over the past few years, they would love another opportunity to try to put another puppet government in power. No matter what side of the fence people the Ukraine stand on, asking the US gov for help shouldn't be an option.



I don't think Russia or Europe have much of a right to involve themselves in this either.

Old Post 03-02-14 05:02 #
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fraggle
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188DarkRevived said:
I say that the only way to solve this crisis is to split the country into two halves so that everyone can live happily ever after.
Worked for Ireland and Israel, right?

Old Post 03-02-14 05:09 #
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4shockblast
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fraggle said:
Worked for Ireland and Israel, right?


I don't think it will work well either, but there aren't too many alternatives I can think of. If either the EU or Russia have full control over Ukraine, there will be a large portion of Ukraine unhappy, and complete independence from both doesn't seem realistic.

Old Post 03-02-14 05:14 #
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Sicamore
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4shockblast said:


I don't think it will work well either, but there aren't too many alternatives I can think of. If either the EU or Russia have full control over Ukraine, there will be a large portion of Ukraine unhappy, and complete independence from both doesn't seem realistic.



There will always be those in a country who are against something, but the majority wins. This is how it works in a democracy. Someone will be left to deal with what they don't like, but that's just the way it will be if they lose a vote. A country can't just split because of minority differences.

Old Post 03-02-14 05:16 #
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4shockblast
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Sicamore said:


There will always be those in a country who are against something, but the majority wins. This is how it works in a democracy. Someone will be left to deal with what they don't like, but that's just the way it will be if they lose a vote. A country can't just split because of minority differences.



True, but it would be preferable that everyone were to be more or less satisfied with their government. And with the opposition in the government, discrimination in language and schooling will probably occur, and that goes beyond just mere disagreement.

Given most historical examples, though, neither separation nor union have worked very well often in nations vast cultural differences. Even the split between the South and the North in the US still causes numerous social and political problems, and this has gone on since the 19th century (and that is without massive external pressures from nations like Russia and from Europe).

Old Post 03-02-14 05:26 #
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188DarkRevived
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fraggle said:
Worked for Ireland and Israel, right?

Things would've definitely been better if there was a time-machine and someone could travel back in time to tell Yanukovich to not flee his post and to prevent one of the military bases from being raided by civilian protesters. But facing reality, we know that this is just a delusion and not even an alternative.

Old Post 03-02-14 06:14 #
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Waffenak
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Its weird that russia got naval base at Crimea. Ukranians should have kicked them out in the early 90's when russia was at its weakest same with kalingrad oblast which is also very strange area

Old Post 03-02-14 06:49 #
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4shockblast
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Waffenak said:
Its weird that russia got naval base at Crimea. Ukranians should have kicked them out in the early 90's when russia was at its weakest same with kalingrad oblast which is also very strange area


Ukraine was also at its weakest at that exact time; all the countries that were part of the USSR suffered following its dissolution. Also, saying that "Ukrainians should have kicked them out" doesn't really make sense since many Ukrainians are pro-Russian and many people on the Crimean peninsula identify with the Russian ethnicity.

Old Post 03-02-14 07:01 #
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Jodwin
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Fuck Russia and everything it stands for.

Old Post 03-02-14 07:04 #
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Demonologist
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@ Sicamore: Your home was destroyed by your own nation with support from the West you implore to so much.

@ Jodwin: Troll gtfo.

I neither support nor abuse the introduction of military forces (besides, they aren't there yet as the final decision isn't made as of now), and no one needs real war. Seeing some people succumbing to emotions when they aren't even able to see the other side of the coin is what is truly ridiculous. I hope that situation gets resolved soon enough without open conflict, but as long as you continue shouting in anger calling everyone you dislike aggressors and praying to others who don't really care about you and your lives - your country won't go well. And please Sicamore, determine your position on whether you speak about your country being under an American protectorate or independent, these are not the same conditions. And stop using 'we' in your posts, you are not the voice of the people and definitely not the one to decide for others.

Still, it's pleasant to see that most people here haven't lost their mind and keep their wits about them.

Old Post 03-02-14 07:44 #
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Jodwin
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Demonologist said:
@ Jodwin: Troll gtfo.

Never forget 1939-1944.

Old Post 03-02-14 07:56 #
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Demonologist
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And what exactly shouldn't I forget? Please elaborate.

Old Post 03-02-14 08:34 #
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Jodwin
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That it was your people who invaded us?

As I said, fuck Russia and everything it stands for.

Old Post 03-02-14 10:11 #
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Enjay
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Jodwin said:
That it was your people who invaded us?

As I said, fuck Russia and everything it stands for.


A very different Russia (USSR) that stood for different things, a lifetime ago, shortly before Finland allied with Nazi Germany.

I'm not saying that there was much choice. I'm not saying Russia was/is right (then or now). I'm not saying that, despite the nature of its ally, Finland didn't conduct itself in a reasonable manner. I'm saying it's complicated; more complicated than can be adequately summed up by a "fuck Russia" attitude rooted in a 3/4 of a century old grudge IMO.

My friend's wife is from the Ukraine and they are certainly concerned as to what Russia's next move will be.

Old Post 03-02-14 11:02 #
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@ Jodwin: Oh yes, and I personally invaded your country back then and slaughtered hundreds. Please don't be ridiculous. Following your logic, the world should also bomb Germany back to the stone age for the two World Wars.

@ Enjay: I couldn't say it better, thanks. Moreover, 'sins of the fathers are burdens of the sons' isn't wise political creed.

Old Post 03-02-14 11:14 #
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j4rio
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Jodwin said:
Fuck Russia and everything it stands for.


Pretty much.

If they want to abuse the situation and get specific Ukraine land, other countries might see it as an initiative and follow doing the exact same thing, like Hungary going for Slovak land which belonged to them for a thousand years. Shit like this is how world wars start to happen.

Last edited by j4rio on 03-02-14 at 11:47

Old Post 03-02-14 11:16 #
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geo
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j4rio said:


Fuck Russia.



My company runs a bunch of E*Stores. There are a lot of credit card frauds. A lot of the credit card frauds come from Russia. I'd say 85%. I always utter... fucking Russians.

Steam has been clogged with phishers at least for me in the past 6 months. All of which have domains in Russia. Dun dun dun. Steam sells games to Russia even cheaper. So Russians will buy cheap games and flip them to people outside Russia.

That Target hacking issue came from Russia.

I'd say Russia's #1 export is scamming or fraudulent activities.

Old Post 03-02-14 11:54 #
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Jodwin said:
That it was your people who invaded us?

As I said, fuck Russia and everything it stands for.

Should we be blaming you for your concentration camps in occupied Russia?

Old Post 03-02-14 12:35 #
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Jodwin
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Enjay said:
A very different Russia (USSR) that stood for different things, a lifetime ago, shortly before Finland allied with Nazi Germany.

Yet very same people with very same cultural values that can often be summed up to "Fuck you, I'm Russian, I take and do what I want." This can be seen in Russia's foreign politics quite often, and it's no secret that a lot of Russian people still miss the "glorious days" of USSR when the motherland was bigger.

As for events leading to the Winter War, sorry, but "Finland didn't conduct itself in a reasonable manner"? The Soviets had demanded that we give them our own territory for military purposes and denying that was unreasonable? No sovereign state should be forced to give their land to an other state and then be called unreasonable when they refuse the demands.

@geo: It is no secret that old school piracy in Eastern Europe - the kind where you burn CDs or copy VHS tapes and sell them for money in black markets - had its roots deeply seeded in Russian mafia. Pirated goods and fake brand clothes and accessories were some of the most common goods that a lot of Finns brought back from St. Petersburg's and Tallinn's Russian markets in the 90's and early 00's. With that background it's more than expected to see a lot of e-crime being based in Russia.



@Demonologist: Don't remember blaming you personally for anything or telling people to nuke Russia off the Earth, but since you got your panties in such a twist I suppose I hit a nerve.

And I'm not sorry.

Old Post 03-02-14 12:40 #
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dew
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Waffenak said:
Its weird that russia got naval base at Crimea. Ukranians should have kicked them out in the early 90's when russia was at its weakest same with kalingrad oblast which is also very strange area

Even at their weakest, Russia wouldn't let the Sevastopol base go. It's extremely important for their naval fleet, so they'd force Ukraine into the lease somehow. Military might makes right - even Fidel doesn't speak against the Gitmo lease.

Oh and if you're giving Kaliningrad back, maybe my country should apply for it since we've founded it as Konigsberg. :) I don't understand who should've kicked the Russians out in your opinion. Prussians? Heh. Russians have a strong and mostly undisputed claim on the exclave, but I do agree it's a very strange area.


j4rio said:
If they want to abuse the situation and get specific Ukraine land, other countries might see it as an initiative and follow doing the exact same thing, like Hungary going for Slovak land which belonged to them for a thousand years. Shit like this is how world wars start to happen.

Calm down, little bro, we're gonna protect you from the Hunnic hordes with our 5 jets and all 3 tanks that can travel the distance without breaking down! But seriously, condemning everything Russian for the actions of their Dear Leader... because of your local land dispute that doesn't even concern Russia? Weak shit. Look at that dumb Finn making an idiot out of himself with his puny inconsequential war memories. Next thing, he's gonna bring hockey into this as well. Demented nationalism is what actually starts world wars.

And you operate in a vastly different context - Slovakian borders were drawn after WW1 and they're upheld by many treaties recognized by international courts and all the powers that be. Both Svk and Hun are members of EU and NATO, so any disputes are dumbed down and silenced. That's why strong allies matter, I guess. Meanwhile, Crimea is a historic Russian territory that Ukrainians one day found themselves with after Khrushchev, half-Ukrainian half-Russian himself, got drunk and decided that the nations should bond and strenghten the Soyuz Nerushimy.

Old Post 03-02-14 12:58 #
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Enjay
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Jodwin said:
Yet very same people with very same cultural values that can often be summed up to "Fuck you, I'm Russian, I take and do what I want." This can be seen in Russia's foreign politics quite often, and it's no secret that a lot of Russian people still miss the "glorious days" of USSR when the motherland was bigger.

As for events leading to the Winter War, sorry, but "Finland didn't conduct itself in a reasonable manner"? The Soviets had demanded that we give them our own territory for military purposes and denying that was unreasonable? No sovereign state should be forced to give their land to an other state and then be called unreasonable when they refuse the demands.


Like I said, complicated. Mind you, so did Avril Lavigne. Although she may have been speaking about something else. :P

However, you specifically referred a simplistic "fuck Russia" attitude back to a series of events that took place when "Russia" was ruled by Stalin in a very different world and 13 years before Putin was even born. Mind you, I live in a country where our adopted national anthem is a trite, twee, xenophobic folk song that harkens back to battles fought 700 years ago against King Edward II of England. It basically bemoans the fact that we have done very little since and wishes that we could do something similar again whilst, all the time, exposing the festering racist grudge that many Scots have against the English (ably displayed by the attitude with which drunk fuckwits sing it at the top of their lungs at the end of wedding receptions, New Year parties etc). Great choice for an anthem; a grudge song that focuses on a single issue and basically says we've been a bit crap for almost a millennium. Go Scotland!

Of course many Russians look back to that time (the USSR, not medieval Scotland) and want it again. Any country with less power than it used to have is like that. The UK certainly is. Many people in the UK still like to think that we are one of the big world players instead of merely one of the supporting cast. The UK, as much as any country, needs a reality check and a re-evaluation of its importance in the modern world.

As for your reply to when I said "Finland didn't conduct itself in a reasonable manner", please read what I said just before that: "I'm not saying that, despite the nature of its ally, Finland didn't conduct itself in a reasonable manner." Despite a very difficult situation, very little choice and a more than slightly suspect ally (Nazi Germany) Finland did actually manage to tread a fairly reasonable path... all things considered.

Old Post 03-02-14 13:21 #
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Demonologist
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@ Jodwin: Duh, are you even sane? I don't take the blame and I don't need you to be sorry, what I'm telling you is that you make childish claims in a way things don't work in a modern political world.


dew said:

Look at that dumb Finn making an idiot out of himself with his puny inconsequential war memories. Next thing, he's gonna bring hockey into this as well. Demented nationalism is what actually starts world wars.


Haha... Rude but pretty much precise.

Old Post 03-02-14 13:30 #
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Gez
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Enjay said:
Any country with less power than it used to have is like that. The UK certainly is.

"We put the 'Great' back in Great Britain" -- Thatcher's bullyish boast after beating up the Argentines.


Enjay said:
Many people in the UK still like to think that we are one of the big world players instead of merely one of the supporting cast.

Having a permanent seat at the UN security council certainly helps.

Old Post 03-02-14 14:15 #
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myk
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Enjay said:
Mind you, I live in a country where our adopted national anthem is a trite, twee, xenophobic folk song that harkens back to battles fought 700 years ago against King Edward II of England. It basically bemoans the fact that we have done very little since and wishes that we could do something similar again whilst, all the time, exposing the festering racist grudge that many Scots have against the English (ably displayed by the attitude with which drunk fuckwits sing it at the top of their lungs at the end of wedding receptions, New Year parties etc). Great choice for an anthem; a grudge song that focuses on a single issue and basically says we've been a bit crap for almost a millennium. Go Scotland!
Actually, the original Argentine National Anthem (called Marcha Patriótica) had lyrics that centered heavily on "pwoning" the evil Spanish crown, but eventually the lyrics were shortened and all that was pretty much removed. So, maybe if you Scots had liberated yourselves instead of slacking and getting drunk all day, you'd have improved the lyrics!

Old Post 03-02-14 14:32 #
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Enjay
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myk said:
So, maybe if you Scots had liberated yourselves instead of slacking and getting drunk all day, you'd have improved the lyrics!

Well...

Frankly, I don't know how the above is going to turn out. I suspect that we will not be leaving the UK but I'm really not sure as to how strongly independence will be rejected. The independence camp is currently helped by there being a Conservative Prime Minister in Downing street ATM. The Conservatives are not desperately popular in Scotland.

Anyway, sorry for the distraction. This is not really relevant to the Ukraine situation.

[edit]
Speaking of which, we need to discuss what the Czech republic has been doing in Slovakia!

http://i.imgur.com/NPzK81w.jpg
[/edit]

Last edited by Enjay on 03-02-14 at 15:12

Old Post 03-02-14 15:05 #
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geo
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Moldova better watch out. Then Romania.

Old Post 03-02-14 15:16 #
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Sicamore
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j4rio said:


Pretty much.

If they want to abuse the situation and get specific Ukraine land, other countries might see it as an initiative and follow doing the exact same thing, like Hungary going for Slovak land which belonged to them for a thousand years. Shit like this is how world wars start to happen.



The problem gentlemen. Not Ukraine. Not Crimea. The problem. And by not getting involved America will show itself as weak, and possibly pave the way for others like China to do the same. It's a game of power.

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 15:25

Old Post 03-02-14 15:19 #
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Waffenak
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4shockblast said:


Ukraine was also at its weakest at that exact time; all the countries that were part of the USSR suffered following its dissolution. Also, saying that "Ukrainians should have kicked them out" doesn't really make sense since many Ukrainians are pro-Russian and many people on the Crimean peninsula identify with the Russian ethnicity.



Kicking them out exactly makes sense: ussr moved people from its outer borders to inland and people from inland to outer borders and doing so tried to destroy ethnic groups. Take a look at Estonia: City of Narva is now full of russian immigrants and junkie problem is very bad there, also Hiv infection is out of hands there. All in all putin could have pulled his move fluently back in middle age but not today because of global cooperation between nations and internet

Old Post 03-02-14 15:23 #
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j4rio
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dew said:

Calm down, little bro



It's not about my little worthless country I don't give a slightest shit about. It was just an example. There are far more such cases in the world that this particular Russian stunt could potentially fuel.

Last edited by j4rio on 03-02-14 at 15:30

Old Post 03-02-14 15:25 #
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