Icon of Sin / Baphomet
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Ukraine and the current situation
Pages (12): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 » ... Last »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 08:16. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Enjay
ASK ME ABOUT FOOTBALL / STEAM / DEAD CELEBRITIES / THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT


Posts: 6381
Registered: 12-00


What really makes sense is people getting on with each other and not sabre-rattling and starting wars at all.

But when did humans ever make sense?

Old Post 03-02-14 15:27 #
Enjay is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 11075
Registered: 07-07



Enjay said:
Speaking of which, we need to discuss what the Czech republic has been doing in Slovakia!

http://i.imgur.com/NPzK81w.jpg


Those political maps sure are up to date.

At least it says "Russia" instead of USSR.

Last edited by Gez on 03-02-14 at 15:55

Old Post 03-02-14 15:39 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Jodwin
Forum Staple


Posts: 3409
Registered: 02-05



dew said:
hockey

You should never trust Swedes, ever. They can't even win without cheating. #NicklasBackström

:P

Old Post 03-02-14 15:42 #
Jodwin is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13


Well, switching the subject a little bit, what do you think will happen now? We have pretty much a live battle in the works.

Old Post 03-02-14 15:47 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
myk
volveré y seré millones


Posts: 15226
Registered: 04-02



j4rio said:
There are far more such cases in the world that this particular Russian stunt could potentially fuel.
As I pointed out Russia didn't start this trend.


The US ambassador to the UN said:
It is ironic that the Russian Federation regularly goes out of its way in this Chamber to emphasize the sanctity of national borders and of sovereignty, but Russian actions in Ukraine are violating the sovereignty of Ukraine and pose a threat to peace and security.
But there's really not that much irony in Russia excusing itself in using such tactics after the US and EU have been doing so themselves. Russian having warned against that also implies that if sovereignty is not respected, eventually, others including Russia itself, won't respect it either. And really, I wouldn't encourage what Russia is doing but at least it involves a region where almost 60% of the population speaks Russian and has Russian blood, with a connected Russian naval base. It's nothing as flagrant as invading Iraq, sending troops to Mali or bombing Libya, or applying rather arbitrary sanctions continually.

Old Post 03-02-14 15:59 #
myk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13



myk said:
As I pointed out Russia didn't start this trend.

But there's really not that much irony in Russia excusing itself in using such tactics after the US and EU have been doing so themselves. Russian having warned against that also implies that if sovereignty is not respected, eventually, others including Russia itself, won't respect it either. And really, I wouldn't encourage what Russia is doing but at least it involves a region where almost 60% of the population speaks Russian and has Russian blood, with a connected Russian naval base. It's nothing as flagrant as invading Iraq, sending troops to Mali or bombing Libya, or applying rather arbitrary sanctions continually.




So let's just not go ahead with any support. Give them Ukraine. Why not Poland while you are it, and maybe even Moldova. They can probably find similar language structure there as well! Russia may not have started it, but they are doing a damn good job of sticking around and making things worse. As I've said 100 times, Ukraine should be deciding this. It's their problem. Just try telling Russia what to do or what to split; their reaction will be lovely. The bastards will do anything to stay away from NATO - a pro-American Ukraine is the last thing Putin needs.

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 16:16

Old Post 03-02-14 16:02 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
myk
volveré y seré millones


Posts: 15226
Registered: 04-02



Sicamore said:
Give them Ukraine.
You should keep that for and if Russians invade the non-Russian sections of Ukraine.


They can probably find similar language structure there as well!
See, you're taking it to extremes that don't apply to the current case or what I said. It's not just a "language structure" but people that share language and blood with Russians, and are seemingly rather pro-Russian, right at the border.


Ukraine should be deciding this.
Which Ukraine? You said in another post that majorities decide, and that's great when there's a democratic state of affairs, but cultural and political tensions have escalated to sectarian violence and institutional mechanisms have been tampered and eroded.

Old Post 03-02-14 16:26 #
myk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13



myk said:

Which Ukraine? You said in another post that majorities decide, and that's great when there's a democratic state of affairs, but cultural and political tensions have escalated to sectarian violence and institutional mechanisms have been tampered and eroded.



This does not justify another country deciding these things. And what are you talking about? There is a functioning government, although shaky, in Kiev right now. Who cares about Yanukovich and his "illegitimate" outing? France, England and the US (amongst others) have acknowledged that he is no longer in power. All positions are filled. And regarding what you said about more than language ties, the situation is like this:

-Russia invades
-Russia takes land
-It's OK because they have Russian ties and some people support that

Isn't there anything wrong with step 1? You cannot just invade another country, regardless of how appropriate you deem the need to be. Plus, nobody asked them! I don't remember anyone calling on Russia to come over. If they were defending their bases (like anybody even posed a threat), they have moved farther, which is now a breach of sovereignty and past the business that ties them to the geographically.

Stop trying to justify specifics here. Just think about the simple idea of a country driving tanks onto another country, and think about that for a moment.

Old Post 03-02-14 16:32 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
4shockblast
Turbo Speed


Posts: 592
Registered: 12-11



Sicamore said:
Well, switching the subject a little bit, what do you think will happen now? We have pretty much a live battle in the works.


I don't know what chance there is of Ukraine defending itself against a giant such as Russia, especially in an area such as Crimea, where the Russians already have a base and a large amount of support. If Russia doesn't leave Crimea and East Ukraine, it will probably take control of that area and the international backlash won't go beyond diplomacy. Most likely, Russia won't go out of this area, as I've said before, but it's hard to predict what will happen. In any case, if Russia wants Crimea, it will probably get it, and there isn't much Ukraine can do about it I don't think.

I'm not aware of where the Russians went so far, since I can't find solid info on Wikipedia, and I imagine that there's many rumors that are unfounded.

Also, hatred against the Russians will not help the cause whatsoever. It is exactly this kind of cultural hatred that is tearing apart Ukraine right now.

Old Post 03-02-14 16:35 #
4shockblast is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
GeckoYamori
Member


Posts: 279
Registered: 07-08


Perhaps Russia would have been slightly less provocative if the US hadn't gotten gotten their fingers into eastern Europe after the Soviet collapse. The whole ideological differences thing of the cold war is in the end rather superficial... what you have fundamentally are two world powers wanting to maintain a sphere of influence, and that never changed. I don't blame Russia for feeling paranoid in that regard.

What they're doing right know is pretty much salami tactics

Old Post 03-02-14 16:36 #
GeckoYamori is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13



4shockblast said:


I don't know what chance there is of Ukraine defending itself against a giant such as Russia, especially in an area such as Crimea, where the Russians already have a base and a large amount of support. If Russia doesn't leave Crimea and East Ukraine, it will probably take control of that area and the international backlash won't go beyond diplomacy. Most likely, Russia won't go out of this area, as I've said before, but it's hard to predict what will happen. In any case, if Russia wants Crimea, it will probably get it, and there isn't much Ukraine can do about it I don't think.

Also, hatred against the Russians will not help the cause whatsoever. It is exactly this kind of cultural hatred that is tearing apart Ukraine right now.



Sorry, I'm not going to open my heart for Russia after they have already invaded. They should have thought about relations earlier, because if I am forced to accept them to stop the aggression this is ridiculous. And I'll say it again - Russia gives 0 fucks about the Russians in Ukraine. They don't care about the people. They don't want to "protect the peace". They want to stay away from NATO, keep control of the area, and make sure the West doesn't get there before they do. It's the same Soviet goals that are recurring over and over again.

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 16:44

Old Post 03-02-14 16:37 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Demonologist
Member


Posts: 473
Registered: 08-09



Sicamore said:
Plus, nobody asked them! I don't remember anyone calling on Russia to come over.

Crimea authorities made an official request for Russia to help them stabilize the situation in this region.

Sicamore said:
after they have already invaded

No one invaded yet.

Sicamore said:
They don't care about the people

Oh well, take a look at the refugees. Where are they moving to? Right, Russia. Not EU, not US. And Russia accepts them and helps them. Zero care about people, huh?

What a fool you make out of yourself, you better calm down before you become utterly irrelevant. You start to sound like Bandera's hound so that you can just bark in rage and hate us 'Russian bastards' without even knowing the deal in the first place.


4shockblast said:
Also, hatred against the Russians will not help the cause whatsoever. It is exactly this kind of cultural hatred that is tearing apart Ukraine right now.

Agreed.

Old Post 03-02-14 17:01 #
Demonologist is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13



Demonologist said:

Crimea authorities made an official request for Russia to help them stabilize the situation in this region.

No one invaded yet.

Oh well, take a look at the refugees. Where are they moving to? Right, Russia. Not EU, not US. And Russia accepts them and helps them. Zero care about people, huh?

What a fool you make out of yourself, you better calm down before you become utterly irrelevant. You start to sound like Bandera's hound so that you can just bark in rage and hate us 'Russian bastards' without even knowing the deal in the first place.


Agreed.



Regarding Crimea asking Russia to come, that was highly suspicious. Unmarked soldiers kick journalists out of the area, close parliament, and hold some kind of vote regarding leadership. What went on there? Who the hell knows other than what was decided.

And are you seriously mentally retarded? Look at the bigger picture here. They are helping people? They might be helping people, but that IS NOT why they are there. America and Europe don't care about helping people either. It's all related to power over this region that divides Russia and the rest of Europe. Sure they want to help to some degree, but it all goes down to one goal. Ignorant shit cannot even understand basic politics. Why don't you go watch more Russian TV instead of researching this.

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 17:27

Old Post 03-02-14 17:04 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Phml
Forum Staple


Posts: 3279
Registered: 06-09



Just think about the simple idea of a country driving tanks onto another country, and think about that for a moment.


We thought about that and only that for 40 years, and today we're talking about this in english. Charybdis and Scylla.

Old Post 03-02-14 17:15 #
Phml is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
myk
volveré y seré millones


Posts: 15226
Registered: 04-02



Sicamore said:
Who cares about Yanukovich and his "illegitimate" outing?
Ukranians with Russian ancestry, traditions and links. About 17% of your population but heavily concentrated in Crimea and to some degree near the borders with Russia.


France, England and the US (amongst others) have acknowledged that he is no longer in power.
Which is one of the main reasons Russia moved in. I had already noted how the US and the UE continually intrude in trying to determine who's legit in a country, and not just by saying so, also by meddling through the economy, diplomacy and intelligence services.


Plus, nobody asked them! I don't remember anyone calling on Russia to come over.
Are you sure?


Stop trying to justify specifics here.
It's not about justifying anything. I'm not speaking in normative terms. I just know more or less how things will play off to certain responses. Just saying "get out Russians", "no one called them" and "who cares about the 'illegitimacy' of Yanukovich's removal" you're simply disregarding the concerns of the Russian Ukrainians and Russians, and given the weakened international situation with world powers having abused sovereignty so often, it's no wonder Russia is able to boldly do it now too, as a result.

I'm not against ethnic Ukrainians' concerns or their need for independence from Russia, but from now on you only sort this out through diplomacy and maneuvering that considers the other side's concerns to a good degree. At least if you prefer peace and democracy.

Old Post 03-02-14 17:25 #
myk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13


Likewise I do not have a problem with Russian Ukrainians doing what they want, or Russia helping at all for that matter. My concern is that Russia is doing this in its own interests of power.

Old Post 03-02-14 17:29 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7911
Registered: 08-04



Sicamore said:
The problem gentlemen. Not Ukraine. Not Crimea. The problem. And by not getting involved America will show itself as weak, and possibly pave the way for others like China to do the same. It's a game of power.
The United States is not your personal army nor, despite popular belief, is not the world's police.

If Iran pulled some shit, maybe, but Russia, why attack someone they won't benefit from? In fact, why even risk starting a war when they can simply allow Russia to boss you around a little? We'll (the west) complain and condemn Russia's actions, but we kind of have to put in that much effort.


Phml said:
We thought about that and only that for 40 years, and today we're talking about this in english. Charybdis and Scylla.
It is kind of hypocritical when the U.S. has done this very thing so many times before. If, for instance, Georgia (The Caucasian country, not the state) rebelled and then stepped foot into one of America's bases, the U.S. would be doing the very thing Russia is doing right now.

Last edited by Technician on 03-02-14 at 17:37

Old Post 03-02-14 17:30 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 11075
Registered: 07-07



GeckoYamori said:
What they're doing right know is pretty much salami tactics


Which is why it was so convenient to deport people willy-nilly and replace them with your nationals so long ago. Now they can invade any of the former USSR satellites, all in the name of protecting their fellow Russians, and nobody has any moral standing to oppose this police action. Hurray!

Old Post 03-02-14 17:36 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13



Technician said:
The United States is not your personal army nor, despite popular belief, is not the world's police.

If Iran pulled some shit, maybe, but Russia, why attack someone they won't benefit from? In fact, why even risk starting a war when they can simply allow Russia to boss you around a little? We'll (the west) complain and condemn Russia's actions, but we kind of have to put in that much effort.



Well, no one is asking for military help particularly. But what I meant was that the world is watching how this will unfold. If the US doesn't do enough, other countries may see this as an opportunity to do what Russia is doing, knowing that the world's greatest power is standing by. In this situation America's actions become important only because it is Russia, which obviously trails back to Cold War history. Of course, this assumes that the country in question recognizes Russia's actions as a breach of sovereignty.

Old Post 03-02-14 17:36 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Demonologist
Member


Posts: 473
Registered: 08-09



Sicamore said:
They have invaded

I'll repeat one more time for those with reading problems - no one invaded your precious country yet.

Sicamore said:
And are you seriously mentally retarded? Look at the bigger picture here. They are helping people? They might be helping people, but that IS NOT why they are there. America and Europe don't care about helping people either. It's all related to power over this region that divides Russia and the rest of Europe. Sure they want to help to some degree, but it all goes down to one goal.

You're speaking against yourself. Before you said Russia doesn't give a fuck about people, and now you say they might be helping people. Make a decision already.
And I don't pose it in relation to Russia's goals, I'm just pointing out that you're wrong in this particular aspect, too bad you've got a skull that thick to understand.

Sicamore said:
Ignorant shit cannot even understand basic politics. Why don't you go watch more Russian TV instead of researching this.

I never watch it. You miss once again.
And of course you do understand everything, you have proven that many times now with your inconsistent posts and opinion shifts amplified by your personal hatred. Funny.

Old Post 03-02-14 17:39 #
Demonologist is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13



Demonologist said:


And I don't pose it in relation to Russia's goals, I'm just pointing out that you're wrong in this particular aspect, too bad you've got a skull that thick to understand.



Although I apologize for my wording, I've talked numerous times about the global implications. I'm sure it could have been safely assumed that "not giving a shit about people" means they have bigger goals, and not that they actually don't give a shit about people.

Anyways, it is correct that anger is making this worse and this won't solve anything. Calming down would help, from my side and yours.

Last edited by Sicamore on 03-02-14 at 17:58

Old Post 03-02-14 17:43 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7556
Registered: 07-00




Disturbing trends in Eastern Europe.

Old Post 03-02-14 18:00 #
fraggle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Demonologist
Member


Posts: 473
Registered: 08-09


@ Sicamore: Finally, a reasonable answer. Yes, the goals of Russia's government are clear enough, but the fact is - there's nothing new. The world is just a playground for greedy politicians, and we may see that international regulations aren't always capable of stopping them.
And I sincerely hope this situation de-escalates soon, preferrably without open conflict and military involved. And I'm sure Russian soldiers that stand ready to move in feel bad about all this. No one wants blood.

And seeing that our countries were never real enemies - there's no real reason for mutual hatred. Both in general and also between you and me in particular.

Old Post 03-02-14 18:03 #
Demonologist is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7911
Registered: 08-04



fraggle said:
Disturbing trends in Eastern Europe.
Don't worry, send in some progressive fascist group like anti-fa or SHARPs to crush their skulls. And some white cis scum while they're at it.

Old Post 03-02-14 18:05 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sicamore
Junior Member


Posts: 128
Registered: 07-13



fraggle said:

utube vid

Disturbing trends in Eastern Europe. [/B]


I wouldn't say that this reflects the ideologies of most of those who protested. I can't really prove this, but amongst those protesting were women and men who had families and were working class. Live interviews conducted on the streets revealed civilians in need of democracy more than individuals like those in the video.

Old Post 03-02-14 18:06 #
Sicamore is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7911
Registered: 08-04



Sicamore said:
I wouldn't say that this reflects the ideologies of most of those who protested. I can't really prove this, but amongst those protesting were women and men who had families and were working class. Live interviews conducted on the streets revealed civilians in need of democracy more than individuals like those in the video.
Radical rightists will always popup during political and economical strife. The media like's to feast off them as much as possible.

Old Post 03-02-14 18:11 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12417
Registered: 07-06



myk said:
Don't be surprised if the cold war lives on.


At least the "real" cold war had some -albeit limited- positive effects for the citizens of Western countries living in close contact with the "Red Peril": work unions, workers' rights, the welfare state etc. were all at their highest even in capitalist countries exactly to avoid creating support for and idealizing the "other side". Can you imagine the current economic recession happening in an era where a real alternative existed, especially if "they" appeared less affected by it?

I am fully aware of course that most smaller countries got the short end of the stick in that Cold War (just like Iraq, Syria, Libya and Ukraine right now), being used simply as battlegrounds for fighting proxy wars and installing repressive right-wing regimes, and Latin America suffered the most in this respect. But where this method was not possible, the authorities preferred "cushioning" capitalism to some extent.

Of course, after the fall of the Berlin Wall, there was no more reason to keep this up, since -in theory- now everybody was playing on the same team. So even if a Cold War climate re-emerges, exactly what does "the other side" stand for?

Old Post 03-02-14 18:14 #
Maes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Belial
Senior Member


Posts: 2292
Registered: 09-05


http://weaponsman.com/?p=13966

Article aside, some important maps are included.

West Ukraine can basically kiss the red areas goodbye.

With a divide this significant I don't know how anyone can use the word "Ukraine" without an adjective in any context other than naming that shape on the map.

In hindsight I'm glad uncle Joe made us a single nation state in Tehran and Yalta. With the 1/3rd share of minorities we've had in the 20s and 30s, separatism would be tearing us apart right about now.

Old Post 03-02-14 18:17 #
Belial is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Technician
Still no custom title


Posts: 7911
Registered: 08-04


http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ad_127832375.jpg

Old Post 03-02-14 18:25 #
Technician is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
dew
experts


Posts: 3400
Registered: 05-08



Gez said:
Which is why it was so convenient to deport people willy-nilly and replace them with your nationals so long ago. Now they can invade any of the former USSR satellites, all in the name of protecting their fellow Russians, and nobody has any moral standing to oppose this police action. Hurray!

Oversimplifying again, Gez. Ever since Catherine the Great annexed the peninsula, there were as many Russians as Tatars. It was the home of the Russian Black Sea fleet since the end of the 18th century, a huge influx of livelihood-seeking Russians was only logical.

Also the first pogrom on Tatars dates back to the end of the Crimean War, when the Ottoman, French and British Empires tried to wrest it from the Russians and Tatars sided with the invaders and hunted down Orthodox Christians. When the war ended, revenge began. The same happened after WW2 when the Tatars sided with Hitler and, as you say, Stalin wanted to punish them. The history of Crimea is complex and full of ethnic cleansing, revenges and counter-revenges. Btw, the original Crimean Khanate was a slaver nation that made a living out of raiding Russian territories and selling slaves to Ottomans.

What happens today isn't clear cut either - the first step of the newly balanced Ukrainian parliament was an incredibly petty one, they repealed the law that allowed Russian to be the second official language. Of course, the Russian-heavy east saw this as an insult and maybe a show of the repressions to come.


@fraggle: That's no new trend. Western Ukraine wasn't pro-Nazi just because of fighting the Soviet tyrants, they also wiped out hundreds of thousands of Poles, Jews and other minorities mostly in the northwest around the Volyn region. Seeing as Bandera is branded a hero in the west, it's no doubt the extremist youth pick up the nacistic and racist elements of his politics as well.

Old Post 03-02-14 18:32 #
dew is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 08:16. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (12): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 » ... Last »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Ukraine and the current situation

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.