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kristus
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I recall reading in Masters of Doom that Id considered the Build engine to be a POS mainly held together by bubblegum. I knew it was pretty buggy with it's collision, like once I walked into a slanted ceiling and it crushed me. But I came across this fundraising video where a guy speedruns Duke 3d and really gets into the nitty gritty of the build engine's patchwork.

Quite the interesting viewing (even if it is hard to hear what he's saying most of the time).

Old Post 03-09-14 10:00 #
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Patrol1985
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Impressive run!

I think such glitches add to the game value. Like wallrunning in Doom or strafe jumping in Quake.... as long as you don't get killed by a glitch :P

Old Post 03-09-14 11:09 #
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Enjay
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The thing that used to get me with any maps that I made, and many of the maps I downloaded, was the flakiness of the 3D water teleport effect. Even if you had copy/pasted the source and destination sectors as exactly as possible, you could still end up with a slight mis-match by the time you came to play the game. So, when you came to teleport, you might get teleported to a location that had you slightly, and I mean ever so slightly into the void - like the very edge of the player actor clipping into the void by less than a pixel (or so it seemed). The engine was so sensitive that this would be enough to crash you back to DOS, leaving the screen mode in some big, ugly graphicy mode.

When playing a map in build, I just got into the habit of taking a running jump into any pools of water to ensure that I wasn't teleporting near the edge. That was usually enough to avoid the problem. Of course, surfacing (teleporting out of the water) was trickier but surfacing away from the edge and then moving to the the edge in order to leave the water would usually do it (unless you accidentally slipped below the surface again).

Old Post 03-09-14 11:27 #
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Phml
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Less than one half of the screen estate dedicated to the game footage... This trend of HUD + player cam in speedruns is getting out of hand.

Old Post 03-09-14 11:40 #
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Jimmy
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This is from Awesome Games Done Quick (AGDQ) and I watched this live before KingDime did his Plutonia run. Amazing shit - it starts off with him skipping E1L3 entirely - within the first 70 seconds - and only gets better from there. You also have to stick around for those geometry-breaking glitches he showcases at the end. :D

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Old Post 03-09-14 11:45 #
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DooM_RO
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It may have been squeaky, but it had far more features than Doom 2. Nothing is better than Doom 1 but I think Duke 3D is far superior to Doom 2. In many ways it's the true sequel to Doom, especially E2.

Old Post 03-09-14 11:55 #
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Avoozl
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I find fighting mutants, pig cops and old fashioned styled aliens quite boring compared to Doom's demon killing.

Old Post 03-09-14 12:16 #
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Belial
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Heh, skips the shrinker in E1M4.

Edit: Wow, were they drunk when they were coding the level transition system?

Last edited by Belial on 03-09-14 at 13:52

Old Post 03-09-14 13:25 #
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Patrol1985
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Enjay said:
The thing that used to get me with any maps that I made, and many of the maps I downloaded, was the flakiness of the 3D water teleport effect. Even if you had copy/pasted the source and destination sectors as exactly as possible, you could still end up with a slight mis-match by the time you came to play the game. So, when you came to teleport, you might get teleported to a location that had you slightly, and I mean ever so slightly into the void - like the very edge of the player actor clipping into the void by less than a pixel (or so it seemed). The engine was so sensitive that this would be enough to crash you back to DOS, leaving the screen mode in some big, ugly graphicy mode.

When playing a map in build, I just got into the habit of taking a running jump into any pools of water to ensure that I wasn't teleporting near the edge. That was usually enough to avoid the problem. Of course, surfacing (teleporting out of the water) was trickier but surfacing away from the edge and then moving to the the edge in order to leave the water would usually do it (unless you accidentally slipped below the surface again).



Wow, I never knew about those bugs. That's probably because I haven't played Duke that much - just ran through it once, but didn't bother to check all the intricacies the game had to offer. I also used the same behaviors like yours, running jumping into pools and emerging to the surface before approaching a shore - the former one because it was cool to do and the latter to see any danger from distance instead of jumping out of the water only to end up right in front of a shotgun pig. I wasn't aware those saved me from game crashes as well :D

That's why I like Carmack's engines. He always put stability before new features and implemented them only when stability was assured.


DooM_RO said:
It may have been squeaky, but it had far more features than Doom 2. Nothing is better than Doom 1 but I think Duke 3D is far superior to Doom 2. In many ways it's the true sequel to Doom, especially E2.


Personally, I'd choose a stable engine with fewer features over one with more possibilities but with some critical flaws. However, Duke pushed FPS genre forward with those features and it definitely was an evolution which inspired other programmers. I prefer id's engines, but I'm glad that Duke 3D was a success as the authors fully deserved their praises. All other things aside, the game was fast, skill oriented and fun, just like Doom.


Avoozl said:
I find fighting mutants, pig cops and old fashioned styled aliens quite boring compared to Doom's demon killing.


I too prefer Doom's more serious tone to Duke's mixture of violence and humor. Neither game's theme is better though - to each their own.

For the same reasons I prefer Rage to Borderlands (gameplay differences aside). Rage is serious and that's how I like my games. I played Borderlands for a short time and all the time I felt like I was inside a Warner Bros cartoon.

Old Post 03-09-14 13:58 #
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tourniquet
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Avoozl said:
I find fighting mutants, pig cops and old fashioned styled aliens quite boring compared to Doom's demon killing.


TRUE... Duke3d couldn't compete with Doom's sinister atmosphere.
I remember back in the early 90's i was kinda forced to work with BUILD because i had no internet and therefore couldn't get a Map Editor for doom.
Later a friend gave me a tool (can't remember the name) to export Doom textures to Duke3d format and i started making doom maps with BUILD.

Old Post 03-09-14 15:51 #
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GoatLord
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I can enjoy Duke plenty, but I have to admit, the cartoonish nature of it can sometimes be a turnoff, even though I love cartoons and enjoy cartoony games like Earthworm Jim or Katamari. But when it comes to shooters, I'd only want a cartoony tone if it can be matched with gratuitous carnage, and Blood did a better job at that than Duke. Blood was insanely violent, macabre and grotesque, and yet it was very sardonic, able to make you chuckle but not roll your eyes. It didn't hit you over the head with its humor quite to the extent that Duke did. Plus, like Doom, Blood had ghoulish, otherworldly monsters that, even if some were generic (like the zombies and reapers), gave the game a very dark appeal and made the act of killing that much more satisfying.

Old Post 03-09-14 15:56 #
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DooM_RO
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What Duke 3D brought was interaction never-before-seen, increased realism and I consider it to be the precursor to games like Half Life and Deus Ex because of that.

The environments were more realistic, you could pee in a toilet to gain health, break the toilet then drink the water, use phones to hear sounds, blow up walls to find secrets, greater texture variety, a much more consistent theme and more.

Doom was a leap from Wolfenstein in every single way, Doom 2 was really just an expansion for Doom if you look at the big picture.

Wolfenstein had 1 type of ammo, Doom had 4. Wolfenstein had 3 weapons, Doom had 7, levels in Wolf didn't have height variation, Doom did. Lighting in Wolfenstein was flat, Doom had a much wider spectrum, increased resolution and so forth.

What did Doom 2 bring?

ONE new gun (although it is awesome)

Moar brown

A handful of very creatively annoying enemies

Clever level design that sadly didn't move the genre forward like Doom did. It was just more Doom 1. EDIT: with extra brown.

A reskinned MARBFACE as the final boss

Doom 2 was just a retread but since there was no internet and back then it wasn't cool to hate games, people didn't care. When I think of Doom, the first thing that comes to mind is Doom 1.

THAT SAID, I like the game and has great modding resources but I don't think it deserves the same amount of recognition Doom 1 does. Even the DTWID2 thread is less popular than the DTWID version.

Last edited by DooM_RO on 03-09-14 at 16:09

Old Post 03-09-14 16:03 #
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Phml
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Stupid as it may be to get mad at people who lack the imagination to appreciate the limitless possibilities video games offer and fall back on realism as the be all and end all for also lacking the imagination to appreciate their vision isn't objective nor universally shared, in a you don't put your dog's nose in his poop kind of way... It still gets me everytime. So frustrating.

Old Post 03-09-14 16:29 #
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kristus
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Phml said:
Stupid as it may be to get mad at people who lack the imagination ... It still gets me everytime. So frustrating.
I try to ignore those people as much as possible.

Old Post 03-09-14 16:48 #
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GeckoYamori
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I thought Duke3D Vs Quake was what it was all about when it comes to fanboy wars.

Old Post 03-09-14 16:54 #
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kristus
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Depends on what you're a fan of.

Old Post 03-09-14 16:58 #
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myk
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It's time to speed run and chew bubble gum... and I just found my gum!


DooM_RO said:
What did Doom 2 bring?
To me, a game's something that I may enjoy, not to show up as a next step in gaming development or get a bigger section in some encyclopedic video game history article. I'm a person who has enjoyed playing games, not an entertainment product analyst. It's much more like a good friend than the guy who's statistically or popularly the best at something. DOOM II is the second part of DOOM (both games run on the same executable) instead of a different game and was a rather important final part considering it's used for most DOOM mods and practically all multiplayer activity.

Old Post 03-09-14 17:16 #
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Shaviro
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Phml said:
Stupid as it may be to get mad at people who lack the imagination to appreciate the limitless possibilities video games offer and fall back on realism as the be all and end all for also lacking the imagination to appreciate their vision isn't objective nor universally shared, in a you don't put your dog's nose in his poop kind of way... It still gets me everytime. So frustrating.


When the day comes where you join in and share your own wonderful vision and theories instead of calling everyone else dumb or imagination-less it might become possible to take your posts seriously. Whatever magical blurry vision resides in your head is pretty useless to everyone else. You enter with your high horse and call everybody else idiots, only to run away when your statement is challenged. Everything is possible in your imagination. Trust me, lack of imagination is not the problem.

Old Post 03-09-14 18:26 #
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Da Werecat
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Duke3D's awsum gimmicks versus Doom/Quake's "obsolete simplicity"? Again?

Last edited by Da Werecat on 03-09-14 at 20:30

Old Post 03-09-14 18:53 #
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Mr. Freeze
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Duke feels too slow, too linear, and too gimmicky compared to Doom. Fun for a while, but I never managed to alleviate my boredom and finish a Duke game.

Old Post 03-09-14 18:57 #
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DooM_RO
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Mr. Freeze said:
Duke feels too slow, too linear, and too gimmicky compared to Doom. Fun for a while, but I never managed to alleviate my boredom and finish a Duke game.


I was comparing it with Doom 2. There's a difference. And it's not linear at all.

Old Post 03-09-14 19:24 #
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40oz
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Phml said:
Stupid as it may be to get mad at people who lack the imagination to appreciate the limitless possibilities video games offer and fall back on realism as the be all and end all for also lacking the imagination to appreciate their vision isn't objective nor universally shared, in a you don't put your dog's nose in his poop kind of way... It still gets me everytime. So frustrating.


could you diagram that sentence for me?

Old Post 03-09-14 20:14 #
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Memfis
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Mr. Freeze said:
Duke feels too slow... and too gimmicky compared to Doom.

Pretty much agree with this. I replayed the first two episodes of Duke about a month ago. Didn't like the slow gameplay (in many situations camping from behind the corner seems to be the only reasonable option) and the gimmicky mechanics like the freezer/etc, which are funny to use once or twice but after that... ehh. And it seems like sometimes you absolutely have to use them if playing each level from pistol start. And I guess you are supposed to know all the secrets to play like that? I couldn't find enough ammo on some levels and had to load a save from the end of the previous level.

There was some very cool stuff though. I thought the atmosphere of the second episode was really amazing. These creepy alien infested ships, disgusting slime things getting right in your face, very impressive music... I was a bit stunned to be honest, didn't expect to get so into the game. Too bad the first episode didn't interest me at all (way too basic design and no redeeming qualities for my taste). And at first glance the third episode looked like just more of E1 so I stopped playing after one or two levels. But I'm really glad that I played E2.

Old Post 03-09-14 20:54 #
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Da Werecat
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Funny, I remember some Duke3D fan saying that Doom was really slow. It's probably a matter of familiarity with the game.

Old Post 03-09-14 21:06 #
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DooM_RO
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Memfis said:

Pretty much agree with this. I replayed the first two episodes of Duke about a month ago. Didn't like the slow gameplay (in many situations camping from behind the corner seems to be the only reasonable option) and the gimmicky mechanics like the freezer/etc, which are funny to use once or twice but after that... ehh. And it seems like sometimes you absolutely have to use them if playing each level from pistol start. And I guess you are supposed to know all the secrets to play like that? I couldn't find enough ammo on some levels and had to load a save from the end of the previous level.

There was some very cool stuff though. I thought the atmosphere of the second episode was really amazing. These creepy alien infested ships, disgusting slime things getting right in your face, very impressive music... I was a bit stunned to be honest, didn't expect to get so into the game. Too bad the first episode didn't interest me at all (way too basic design and no redeeming qualities for my taste). And at first glance the third episode looked like just more of E1 so I stopped playing after one or two levels. But I'm really glad that I played E2.



That's how I feel as well. It's KDITD V 2.0 which basically means Doom 2.0 for me.

Old Post 03-09-14 21:25 #
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Nomad
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Phml said:
Less than one half of the screen estate dedicated to the game footage... This trend of HUD + player cam in speedruns is getting out of hand.


It's pretty important being able to get a good view of the player's emotionless, robotic state though.

Old Post 03-09-14 21:28 #
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Aliotroph?
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That was an awesome vid. I always knew DN3D was a hackish game, but I had no idea about most of those quirks. (They don't count as glitches when they're that repeatable imho.)

I'm with Memfis about episode 2. I love its setting. Always thought it didn't get enough love from the mapping crowd, who mostly just wanted to make grungy, urban-looking maps.

Old Post 03-09-14 21:30 #
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Phml
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could you diagram that sentence for me?


me
horse <-> you

apparently

Last edited by Phml on 03-09-14 at 22:57

Old Post 03-09-14 22:26 #
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fraggle
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Apples and oranges. I appreciate the gameplay of both.

Video from the top post is both interesting and amusing.

Old Post 03-09-14 22:46 #
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Technician
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This glitch-exploited run isn't too out of the norm. It's surprising how many people can completely brake console games. Super Mario 64 is famous for this.

Phml said:
Less than one half of the screen estate dedicated to the game footage... This trend of HUD + player cam in speedruns is getting out of hand.
I just posted this same thing in the comments section. Glad I'm not the only one.

Old Post 03-09-14 22:57 #
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