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Shaviro
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@Phml

I can see you edited out your reply while I was writing mine, so I'll do the same.

As for the topic, I always saw Duke3D as a natural extension of where Doom itself was going even if it was a little inconsistent with its tone. Dark, atmospheric music and gloomy setting. Pigs with shotguns? One-liners? Overly camp cutscenes? Does that reduce to tonal z-fighting or does it create a sharp edge that defines much of the charm of the game? I don't know. You could get away with a lot more back then I guess.

I recently had some duke3d coop with a friend. We played through episode 1 and 2. Especially 2 had some amazing level design. It certainly isn't linear. Got lost several times, but I'm one of those freaks who actually enjoy that. I did notice how glitchy everything is, but I never expected it to be as "bad" as shown in that video :D

Last edited by Shaviro on 03-09-14 at 23:17

Old Post 03-09-14 22:59 #
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boris
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Doesn't look too bad compared to the glitchfests of the Half Life 2 speedruns.

Old Post 03-09-14 23:24 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Da Werecat said:
Funny, I remember some Duke3D fan saying that Doom was really slow.

I wonder if he forgot to press the "run" key.

Old Post 03-09-14 23:40 #
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dew
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DooM_RO said:
I was comparing it with Doom 2. There's a difference. And it's not linear at all.

Doom2 is better than Doom in every aspect except novelty and your desperate crusade against it in a thread dealing with Build being a buggy engine is just making me agree with phml. I'm sorry that the game didn't fulfill your hopes of a Quake-come-1994, but I don't even get the message you are trying to convey. DN3D oneupped Doom in some sense? You don't say. All of the copycats had to bring something new to the table, otherwise they wouldn't get any serious attention. Duke3D certainly doesn't feel as THAT much of a leap forward when compared to Dark Forces or Marathon (EDIT: or fucking DESCENT!!! EDIT2: Or how about some System Shock? That's far more interactive than DN3D, huh?! HUH?!), games that came before it.


In many ways it's the true sequel to Doom, especially E2.

I like Duke3D, it's a really cool and (in its time) innovative game, but when you say stuff like that, I get a feeling you're just lashing out because of some personal bias. Did Doomguy beat you at school?

Old Post 03-09-14 23:57 #
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Enjay
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The thing about Duke 3D that really lowered it a couple of notches for me wasn't the sexism, babe-rescuing plot or toilet-pissing (though they played their part), it was that the enemies didn't really hang together in my mind as a cohesive force. OK, so most of them were quite lizardy in appearance but the pig cops and general feel of the enemies was too random and silly to me. So, I didn't really enjoy fighting them that much. I couldn't even work out what the main trooper enemy was really supposed to look like until I saw some hi-res concept art.

OK, the Doom enemies are also a bit of a random collection but somehow the premise of them being hellish and with there being a reasonably consistent approach to appearance and integration of human tech (where it is used) meant that I didn't get the same feeling about them.

Basically, I thought the Duke enemies were a bit random and silly but the Doom ones were less so.

Old Post 03-10-14 00:45 #
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Technician
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Actually, I find the monsters in Duke very cohesive. They all share similar traits, sans pig-cop, of course. They are all flesh colored with stripes, tailed, and reptile-like in appearance. They are believable as a species. Of course the mutant creatures (pig-cops, octobrains, and slimers) deviates from this theme.

EDIT: Also, has any photos of the armatures used for the sprites turn up? I know some third party bought them and has since hoarded them.

Last edited by Technician on 03-10-14 at 01:24

Old Post 03-10-14 01:16 #
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Looper
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Duke 3D slow? How about steroids + straferunning :D that's the only way to play it anyways ":D"

Old Post 03-10-14 01:17 #
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Quasar
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boris said:
Doesn't look too bad compared to the glitchfests of the Half Life 2 speedruns.

That was also run at AGDQ this year. Most of the run was the player flying through the air like an ICBM and praying to cheat falling damage.

Old Post 03-10-14 05:10 #
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DooM_RO
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dew said:

Doom2 is better than Doom in every aspect except novelty and your desperate crusade against it in a thread dealing with Build being a buggy engine is just making me agree with phml. I'm sorry that the game didn't fulfill your hopes of a Quake-come-1994, but I don't even get the message you are trying to convey. DN3D oneupped Doom in some sense? You don't say. All of the copycats had to bring something new to the table, otherwise they wouldn't get any serious attention. Duke3D certainly doesn't feel as THAT much of a leap forward when compared to Dark Forces or Marathon (EDIT: or fucking DESCENT!!! EDIT2: Or how about some System Shock? That's far more interactive than DN3D, huh?! HUH?!), games that came before it.


I like Duke3D, it's a really cool and (in its time) innovative game, but when you say stuff like that, I get a feeling you're just lashing out because of some personal bias. Did Doomguy beat you at school?



You still don't get it, I was talking about Doom 2, which I like but much less than Doom 1. The interactivity and the still abstract but more believable level design (different to realism) is what made it for me . Even when I was 8 my friend and I called the shareware Doom "the cool Doom" because it looked cooler. I vaguely remember playing the other games you mentioned when I was little so I'll have to fire them up again but since we're talking System Shock, I play its sequel at least once a year. Oh, and Quake is good but not really my style. I can see why people like it though.

I don't know, maybe all the mods like Demon Eclipse have altered my expectations. I love everything in it, more specifically how the weapons looked and acted differently each episode without becoming gimmicky, overpowered or un-doomlike and how awesome the combination of Doom/Heretic/Hexen atmosphere of E2 is - especially the levels in the newer version.


Looper said:
Duke 3D slow? How about steroids + straferunning :D that's the only way to play it anyways ":D"


Makes me dizzy just by thinking about it.

Last edited by DooM_RO on 03-10-14 at 06:44

Old Post 03-10-14 06:31 #
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Flesh420
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I've always thought build as a modern doom source port but in the 90s.

Old Post 03-10-14 20:27 #
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Fernito
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Yeah, the Duke3D engine is REALLY fucked up. It's full of glitches, they are literally everywhere (that's good for us speedrunners though!).

LLCoolDave is one of the best Duke3D speedrunners around. The most impressive thing about the run on the video is that it's single segmented; I still hold most of the "official" (Speed Demos Archive) world records for Vanilla Duke3D, but my runs are not single segmented.

XBLA world records are really mindblowing, though those must be consdered as TAS's rather than regular speedruns, as the XBOX360 version of the game allows the use of savestates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxraCgpbkiM

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Last edited by Fernito on 03-10-14 at 21:43

Old Post 03-10-14 21:36 #
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The Green Herring
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On the topic of the AGDQ 2014 Duke Nukem 3D speedrun, what really ought to be brought up by now is that the now-famous E1L3-skipping bug only works on the Megaton Edition, which was the version used in this run. It doesn't appear to work in the original game, which seems to handle the help screen properly. In other words, it's a bug in the modern version of the game instead of a bug in the original.

I was, however, able to do the whole glitch exhibition in the original game, including the bug that destroys the E4L1 conference room. ;)

Old Post 03-10-14 21:37 #
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Fernito
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The Green Herring said:
Back on the topic of the AGDQ 2014 Duke Nukem 3D speedrun, what really ought to be brought up by now is that the now-famous E1L3-skipping bug only works on the Megaton Edition, which was the version used in this run. It doesn't appear to work in the original game, which seems to handle the help screen properly. In other words, it's a bug in the modern version of the game instead of a bug in the original.

I was, however, able to do the whole glitch exhibition in the original game, including the bug that destroys the E4L1 conference room. ;)


Not only that one, but also many others in that run, like, for instance, the E3L1 door skip almost at the end of the level; I'm pretty sure that one is not possible in Vanilla Duke3D (one of the requirements for submitting speedruns to SDA was that it's mandatory to use the original version of the game to record the runs).

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Old Post 03-10-14 21:42 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Well, that's kind of disappointing to learn. I just assumed the Megaton engine was faithful to the original, considering it was being used in SDA's marathon.

Old Post 03-11-14 03:11 #
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mrthejoshmon
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In my attempts to get as high as possible in the XBLA leader boards (By just playing the game on higher difficulties with an emphasis on killing as much aliens as possible) for this game, I found myself being killed by:

vertical doors (E2's "Dark Side" most notably)

the jetpack (I have no idea how but it happened)

steroids mixed with doors (splat)

revolving doors (E4 being the biggest offender by constantly squishing me on Babe Land)

those giant gear things (sometimes glitching through with a death in the void)

crouching (some areas just outright kill me in E2)

sliding doors (pushed me through the god damn wall!)

water (splat)

regular doors (also pushed through the wall)

"Movie Set" and it's shit spawn

"Tier Drops" has invisible enemies that utterly kick my ass from the other tiers of the map

And a Battlelord killed me through the entire map on "Warp Factor"

All of these glitch deaths were found through normal play, I don't even want to imagine what could be found when looking for them.

Old Post 03-11-14 03:49 #
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Creaphis
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Fernito said:
(one of the requirements for submitting speedruns to SDA was that it's mandatory to use the original version of the game to record the runs)


Since when? As far as I know, SDA encourages using whatever version gives you the fastest time.

Old Post 03-12-14 21:45 #
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Fernito
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Creaphis said:


Since when? As far as I know, SDA encourages using whatever version gives you the fastest time.



Is that so? Then I don't know why in our case some guy who was in charge (radix, if I recall correctly?) made us use the original DOS Duke3D executable to record the runs (no ports allowed).

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Old Post 03-12-14 22:10 #
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Technician
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The vanilla engine should be a requirement for speed runs, IMO. If not, I can modify the engine to accommodate a faster run. Hey, if they encourage you to use whatever version gets you the fastest run, why not?

Old Post 03-12-14 22:55 #
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Creaphis
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Fernito said:
Is that so? Then I don't know why in our case some guy who was in charge (radix, if I recall correctly?) made us use the original DOS Duke3D executable to record the runs (no ports allowed).


Well, third-party source ports aren't allowed, but when a game has multiple "official" versions I believe that they're all acceptable. Of course, there are cases where version differences are significant enough for records to be tracked separately, and there are games where a mod de facto becomes official, and there are times when you can use emulators and times you can't, and etc., so getting clarification from somebody who knows what they're talking about is a good idea.

Old Post 03-12-14 23:11 #
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Fernito
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Creaphis said:


Well, third-party source ports aren't allowed, but when a game has multiple "official" versions I believe that they're all acceptable. Of course, there are cases where version differences are significant enough for records to be tracked separately, and there are games where a mod de facto becomes official, and there are times when you can use emulators and times you can't, and etc., so getting clarification from somebody who knows what they're talking about is a good idea.



Sounds logical.

Anyway, take into consideration that my runs were published in 2007, so maybe SDA rules were stricter back then?

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Old Post 03-12-14 23:21 #
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geo
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Duke 3D Megaton is $1 on humblebundle now. They're juggling 4 bundles at once.

Old Post 03-13-14 00:10 #
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GoatLord
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Technician said:
The vanilla engine should be a requirement for speed runs, IMO. If not, I can modify the engine to accommodate a faster run. Hey, if they encourage you to use whatever version gets you the fastest run, why not?


Yeah, but tool assisted speedruns are popular too.

Old Post 03-13-14 00:18 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Jesus. I always had suspicions that the BUILD engine was some shoddy piece of work, but several of the glitches/bugs/exploits shown here are far from expected.

Old Post 03-13-14 14:53 #
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Technician
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BaronOfStuff said:
Jesus. I always had suspicions that the BUILD engine was some shoddy piece of work, but several of the glitches/bugs/exploits shown here are far from expected.
Like previously mentioned, a lot of these bugs are from the Megaton edition.

I had no idea they messed with the engine this much.

Old Post 03-13-14 17:26 #
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Fernito
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Technician said:
Like previously mentioned, a lot of these bugs are from the Megaton edition.

I had no idea they messed with the engine this much.



But still, the original DOS Duke3D executable had most of those glitches anyway.

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Old Post 03-13-14 17:29 #
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ASD
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Used to watch Fernito's speedruns and glitch videos. They never get old.

Old Post 03-13-14 18:59 #
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Urban Space Cowboy
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The Green Herring said:
the now-famous E1L3-skipping bug only works on the Megaton Edition, which was the version used in this run. ... I was, however, able to do the whole glitch exhibition in the original game, including the bug that destroys the E4L1 conference room.
This makes me wonder, how many of these bugs are in Build proper, and how many are the DN3D team's fault? Remember, Build isn't a complete game the way Doom is; it's a 3D engine with some niceties, but when Ken Silverman licensed it commercially it was as a binary library to link and build upon. That's why each Build game has its own features, like DN3D's scripting, Shadow Warrior's ceiling/floor portals, or Blood's doomfy data encryption.

I've watched speed-runs of Shadow Warrior (both the original game and the Redux re-release and, while there're some hilarious shortcuts (mostly involving jumping on top of enemies!), it's nowhere near as much of a clipping-glitchfest as LLCoolDave's DN3D run. Is it really "the bubblegum nature of Build", or is it DN3D particularly?

Old Post 03-13-14 23:56 #
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Fernito
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Urban Space Cowboy said:
This makes me wonder, how many of these bugs are in Build proper, and how many are the DN3D team's fault? Remember, Build isn't a complete game the way Doom is; it's a 3D engine with some niceties, but when Ken Silverman licensed it commercially it was as a binary library to link and build upon. That's why each Build game has its own features, like DN3D's scripting, Shadow Warrior's ceiling/floor portals, or Blood's doomfy data encryption.

I've watched speed-runs of Shadow Warrior (both the original game and the Redux re-release and, while there're some hilarious shortcuts (mostly involving jumping on top of enemies!), it's nowhere near as much of a clipping-glitchfest as LLCoolDave's DN3D run. Is it really "the bubblegum nature of Build", or is it DN3D particularly?



It's Duke Nukem 3D in particular; back when I was recording my runs, I thought about the very same thing, so I tried -unsuccessfully- to reproduce the glitches I was using for Duke3D in other Build games (Blood and Shadow Warrior, specifically)

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Old Post 03-14-14 00:01 #
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Technician
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I had no idea the build engine is so heavily modified from game to game. I guess we'll never see a do-all source port like ZDoom for the build games. That's a little disappointing because even without the source code Strife runs perfectly on ZDoom. We'll never see that with Blood, I guess.

Old Post 03-14-14 00:42 #
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Quasar
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Technician said:
... even without the source code Strife runs perfectly on ZDoom ...

Perfectly well enough, but not perfectly. There are a lot of deliberate changes and some omissions that may be accidental, and a few that are just, well I don't want to say lazy, but, without a good explanation that I can think of. The best example would be the fact that in Training skill, monsters do not slow down as they're supposed to do.

Chocolate Strife on the other hand is perfect. Still waiting for anybody to report on a flaw in it for me to fix, cuz I'd love to have any excuse to work on it again.

Old Post 03-14-14 19:40 #
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