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nxn
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and I don't think it should either.
Scientists Clone Bull Accidentally

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Old Post 05-01-02 19:24 #
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IMJack
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OOPS.

Did you know Christopher Reeve is trying to get his paralyzed ass cloned?

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Old Post 05-01-02 19:49 #
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fodders
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He just thinks that stem cell research will help to cure the damage to his spinal cord

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Old Post 05-01-02 21:05 #
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IMJack
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Here's a thought: If you cloned a living human being, and then used that fetus's stem cells for research, would anyone have a problem with it?

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Old Post 05-01-02 21:55 #
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How do you manage to "accidentally" clone something?

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Old Post 05-01-02 21:59 #
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Lüt
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Archvile64 said:
How do you manage to "accidentally" clone something?
Read the article?

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Old Post 05-01-02 22:04 #
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nxn
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I don't see anything wrong with cloning, I say they should be able to clone humans just because they can, as long as humanity progresses somehow in it. Cut some roots to make the tree survive.

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Old Post 05-01-02 22:14 #
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Lüt
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I don't like it, but it's been a while since I ever thought about it, so, heh, no arguments for now.

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Old Post 05-01-02 22:19 #
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dsm
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orion said:
I don't see anything wrong with cloning, I say they should be able to clone humans just because they can, as long as humanity progresses somehow in it. Cut some roots to make the tree survive.

Do you know that humanity already has a population problem? There are beginning to be too many humans on Earth and now you're saying that we should increase the population further? That way it wouldn't take long before food would be in short supply.

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Old Post 05-01-02 23:06 #
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dsm said:

Do you know that humanity already has a population problem? There are beginning to be too many humans on Earth and now you're saying that we should increase the population further? That way it wouldn't take long before food would be in short supply.


not in that way dufus. As in being able to clone human body parts to save lifes. As in learning more and more about the human body to prevent other deaths. As in getting one step closer to acheiving the ultimate goal: immortality.

And if you don't like the aspect of playing god, or cheating, you're pretty much a sucker in my mind.

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Old Post 05-01-02 23:38 #
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It's gonna be the elite that get access to cloning, there won't be any scumbag drug dealers being cloned, they are easily replicated by taking the brains out of a monkey, removing any morals, and instilling a high quota of "I don't give a shit about society, syndrome"

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Old Post 05-02-02 01:01 #
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fodders said:
It's gonna be the elite that get access to cloning, there won't be any scumbag drug dealers being cloned, they are easily replicated by taking the brains out of a monkey, removing any morals, and instilling a high quota of "I don't give a shit about society, syndrome"

I bet if eskabar lived in a time when cloning is available to the elite he could get himself cloned if he wished, proving your little theory wrong. But why would he? one more person to compete with to sell coke.

And do you really think I support terrorists? do you really think my money goes to them? I get my weed from my friend, who get's it from a dude that grows weed himself. Therefore all the money is going to him, and he's not a terrorist.

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Old Post 05-02-02 01:36 #
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I don't mean simple pot sales, that's fine by me :)

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-02-02 02:58 #
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fodders said:
I don't mean simple pot sales, that's fine by me :)

Well I never sold anything other than weed, I did other things, I never sold them though.

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Old Post 05-02-02 03:01 #
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orion said:

I bet if eskabar lived in a time when cloning is available to the elite he could get himself cloned if he wished

Do you mean Escobar? Bit late to clone him, don't you think ? He was killed in Nov 1993:

Colombian security forces Thursday shot and killed Pablo Escobar, the billionaire godfather of international cocaine trafficking, as he attempted to flee his hideout in the drug dealing center of Medellin, Colombia.

Escobar, leader of the Medellin drug cartel, was killed as he and his bodyguards tried to elude police by climbing onto a rooftop of the safehouse where they were hiding, Colombian authorities said.

Authorities said Escobar opened fire and was met by volleys of return fire from some of the dozens of police and troops who had stalked the drug kingpin to a house on the west side of the city of 1.6 million people.

Authorities in Medellin told reporters that they had traced Escobar when he telephoned a radio station over the weekend to protest official treatment of his wife and children whose attempt to leave the country was rebuffed.

"This life was taken simply because he resisted being captured," Colombian prosecutor general Gustavo de Greiff said in a television interview from Bogota, monitored in Miami. "Let this be a lesson to all criminals that sooner or later we will catch them."

U.S. Drug Enforcement officials praised Colombian authorities for tracking Escobar down. A leading DEA official said Escobar's death was a milestone, but it would do little to stop the flow of tons of cocaine to the United States.

"This is the end of an era -- if you look at the violence produced by this man," said Tom Cash, special agent in charge of the DEA in Miami. "It will be a long time before anyone takes his place." But Cash said the leaders of the rival Cali Cartel, which has a firm grip on drug shipments to the New York metropolitan area, are likely celebrating a victory with Escobar's death.

"They will have a corner on the market, because no one person will replace Pablo Escobar," he said.

The death of the 44-year-old Colombian drug titan culminated a 16-month search that began when Escobar fled a luxurious prison built especially for him by Colombian authorities on a hillside near his hometown in a Medellin suburb. That began a search by a specially organized 3,000-member security team.

Escobar, reputed to shift frequently from one safehouse to another, was said to elude capture by paying weekly bribes to corrupt officials. The United States and Colombia had offered $8.7 million for his capture.

"It's the triumph of law over crime," said Andres Pastrana, a prominent Colombian legislator. "Escobar ended up being a symbol of violence and narco-terrorism. Now the country can begin to live more peacefully."

Max Mermelstein, a one-time lieutenant in the Escobar's organization, said Thursday in a telephone interview that he thought drug trafficking to the United States could increase in the aftermath of Escobar's death.

"Pablo had a very tight rein on trafficking operations," said Mermelstein, a New York native who became a key informant for the DEA after striking a plea bargain with the U.S. government. Mermelstein smuggled tons of cocaine into southern Florida in the 1980s for Escobar and the Medellin Cartel.

"I think there will be an increase not a decrease," he said. "Now they don't have to worry about paying Pablo off. Everybody is going to establish their own routes."

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-02-02 03:06 #
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IMJack
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fodders said:
It's gonna be the elite that get access to cloning, there won't be any scumbag drug dealers being cloned, they are easily replicated by taking the brains out of a monkey, removing any morals, and instilling a high quota of "I don't give a shit about society, syndrome"
Elites who are looking for immortality aren't gonna get cloned. It's be a useless, pointless prospect unless anything short of a total nervous system transplant becomes possible. Even if you could somehow copy the contents of your brain into a clone (a la Sixth Day), you'd only get to watch the clone take over your life while you die in the background.

On the other hand, if cloning gets cheap and efficient enough, cloning a bunch of grunts to do the dirty work (fighting, guarding, dealing drugs) might prove feasable.

But in either case, in such a world human life would be worthless and we'd all be better off dead.

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Old Post 05-02-02 03:08 #
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nxn
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yes I know he was killed, that's why I said "if he lived in a time when cloning is available to the elite".

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Old Post 05-02-02 03:13 #
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Sorry, but I had to ask, as I had never heard of eskabar

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-02-02 03:30 #
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nxn
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fodders said:
Sorry, but I had to ask, as I had never heard of eskabar

you very well knew what I meant, don't lie, you just can't say no to loading google. =P

I'm sorry to say this fod, but you're addicted to google.

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Old Post 05-02-02 03:43 #
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fodders
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Well no, I knew it was Escobar, Google was just a filipp :)

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-02-02 04:04 #
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Bah, cloning's pointless. Think of all the other things we could be wasting money on.... like a cure for stupidity.

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Old Post 05-02-02 05:48 #
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Lüt said:
Read the article?
Yeah, but it still seems kinda hard to totally change the sex of the animal you're cloning, especially if you're a professional like those people are.

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Old Post 05-02-02 12:14 #
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Introduction
Besides the fact that cloning will not "clone" you thoughts and memory, it is wrong to think that cloning will lead to a exact copy of an organism.

This is why:



Arguments
A) First there are of course mutation and background noise to make you different from your clone.

B) But there are other much more important factors to consider.
But first we must understand the cloning method. There are many methods to clone. Most common:
1.take an egg cell
2.Destroy it's core DNA
3.take the core from a (somatic) cell of the organism you wish to clone. For instance the core of cell taken from the ear.
4.put this core in the empty egg cell

How is it that the DNA from an ear cell core can act an zygotic core(zygote = fused egg and sperm cell)?

The cytoplasm of the ear cell induced the ear cell core to transcribe those genes needed to be an ear cell.
Now the core is placed in the cytoplasm of an egg cell.
The determinants of the cytoplasm of the egg cell induce the inserted core to dedifferentiate and become a zygote. Genes transcribed specially by ear cells are turned off and those for zygotes are swithed on.
The core DNA remains the same, only the selection of genes that are transcribed changes due to difference in determinants.
So DNA is simply a list of parts which is used to make an organism. So DNA does not lay down the development of a organism completely.

The same core can lead to different expressions given different cytoplasmic environments. This of course happens when you use this cloning method since you're using different egg cells.

C) To make things even more complicating there is something like Maternal Factors. The transcription of zygotic DNA does not start immediately. First maternal transcription factors induce development. So in early development the DNA of the mother is determining and not that of the embryo itself. The embryos DNA is swithed on later to take over development.

example: In some snails species the turning of the shell in determined by such maternal factors. If the mother has DNA that says that the shell should turn right and the embryos DNA says left the embryos shell will turn out right-turning.

So again your DNA does not lay down your development completely.

D) Up untill now I have only talked about core DNA; the DNA in the chromosomes. But there is also a thing called extra-chromosomal DNA. It is in the mitochondria and only derives from the mother (egg cell). The influence of this DNA on development is unsure. So using a different egg cell than the one that was used to make you can yet again influence the development of your clone.



Summary
All in all taking your chromosomal DNA and putting it in a egg cell is not going to result in an exact copy of you. this is due to A) mutation & background noise B) difference in determinants C) Maternal factors D) Extra-chromosomal DNA



Discussion
You never hear people talking about this in the media. I don't know why. Maybe they're to dumb or are just trying to keep us stupid. Maybe they like it when everybody gets all paranoid and fears science.

Anyhow that's it for todays lesson.



Glossary:

Determinants: cytoplasmic factors (e.g. proteins and RNAs) in the egg and in embryonic cells that can be asymmetrically distributed at cell division and so influence how the daughter cells develop.

Maternal Factors: Proteins and RNAs that are deposited in the egg by the mother during oogenesis. The production of these maternal proteins and RNAs is under control os co-called maternal genes

Zygote: Fertilized egg is is diploid and contains the chromosomes of both the male and female parents

Scientist: person with a lot of free time who thinks he's so cool using far to many biological terms

Old Post 05-02-02 13:12 #
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nxn
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man I had to take that all in my biology class this semester, don't give me flashbacks, I'm just glad I passed it and moved onto chemistry honors. I'll have more fun in that.

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Old Post 05-02-02 23:33 #
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Chemistry is important too, but all the cool research is being done by Biologists.

Old Post 05-02-02 23:50 #
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Cloning is useful for making replacement body parts, or making cheap, healthy livestock (i.e. mad cow disease kills all the cattle in a certain area, and more can be shipped in from healthy dna strains kept elsewhere.

Otherwise, I'm against it. I mean, think of what would happen if the government started cloning humans. They'd have no use for us natural born anymore! Frightening, but possible.

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Old Post 05-03-02 00:02 #
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I'm all for cloning. As long as clones get the same rights as their similars.

But anyway, it's not like governments are gonna start cloning healthy soldiers to create emotionally unattached armies of lethal perfection. You can't hide that from the public. And the public won't stand it.

Still, I'm more than sure there's already cloned humans somewhere in a hidden bunker, but what are you gonna do? There's probably technology like 20 years more advanced that what we currently have under curtains. I don't see a goddamn reason to worry about untouchable things.

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Old Post 05-03-02 01:15 #
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orion said:
man I had to take that all in my biology class this semester, don't give me flashbacks, I'm just glad I passed it and moved onto chemistry honors. I'll have more fun in that.
Fuck, I hate my bio class, but I hear Chem CAS is a helluva lot worse. I won't have any fun in science until my junior year :/

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Old Post 05-03-02 01:57 #
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I'm not for cloning because personally, I think the world's too damn over populated already. It's not that we need to kill anyone off, we just need to stop having so many children. Use protection people!

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Old Post 05-03-02 01:58 #
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Archvile64 said:
Fuck, I hate my bio class, but I hear Chem CAS is a helluva lot worse. I won't have any fun in science until my junior year :/

It's not which is harder, with bio I was really doing good through Evolution and DNA, because I had an intrest in it. I wasn't doing good with those stupid plants and their little alternation of generations, that was just gay. With chemistry I'll have more fun because well, I'll let you figure it out.

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Old Post 05-03-02 02:55 #
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