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quakke
Warming Up


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FireFish said:
AHA, now it shows. There is a giant difference bewteen 'i do not like simulations', and 'everything rips of everything'.

I advice you to go to this site ;
http://www.indiedb.com/games?filter...e=&indie=&type=

It has thousands of 'fun' arcade FPs shooters some free others to be bought. Making this in a near flame war to eventually drop everything you enforced to reveal the 'fun' factor... if only you did this in the beginning and wrote something like 'i want fun action arcade FPS games'



I thought that it was already obvious about what i like, considering how i thanked all the Indies who have kept making those good FPS' for these past very hard 7 years.

But this thread really isn't about me, it's about to give general information to people.

Old Post 04-20-14 01:07 #
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mrthejoshmon
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the OP said:
CoD-clone is anything that has REGENERATING HEALTH and/or IRONSIGHTS and the feel of movement that has been taken from CoD directly. Other features are WEAPON LIMIT, SPRINT, super linear levels, qte's and "RETURN TO COMBAT ZONE".

List of CoD-clones starts here, and notice the dates. Notice how everything starts from 2007 (when Modern Warfare was released) not a single CoD-clone is pre-2007, because that's when FPS still had variety in it.


Just because of how stupid that sounds.


quakke said:
...i simply do not understand why everyone is fine in whole FPS nowadays being defined as CoD? I know Arma is an Simulation, and like i listed, Simulations used to be out there (Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield, SWAT, Operation Flashpoint, Delta Force) not anymore. It's been a decade, to get another Tactical/non-War Simulator...

I do not play a game like DOOM for realism, i play it for fun. If i want realism i can fire up one of those Simulations or go to an actual firing range In Real Life.

Ditto.

It is all clear to me now. Because YOU don't like the "realistic" approach to games, anything that takes that angle is considered a CoD clone.

How simple minded of you. But you know what, the fact that you think these games are too "realistic" that is just your opinion and these games are certainly (for the most part) NOT CoD clones but you treat your opinion as a solid fact (which it isn't BTW). Just because of certain features does not...

Fuck it you ain't listening

(I would also like to point out how much of an awful idea this thread was BTW, not a good idea to present your opinions as a solid fact like you are)

EDIT:

quakke said:
But this thread really isn't about me, it's about to give general information to people.
What the fu...

Old Post 04-20-14 01:11 #
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Clonehunter
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I... I don't know what I just read... At all...

Old Post 04-20-14 01:28 #
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geekmarine
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Now I admit, I've only played a couple of COD games, but here's what I think of when I think of COD. I think of regenerating health, and levels where it's, "Walk a little, shoot a bunch of bad guys, walk a little more, shoot a bunch more bad guys," etc. Then "Hey, here's an objective, there'll be never-ending waves of enemies until the objective is completed." In that regard, to me, Serious Sam is really what I think of when I think of a COD clone. Sure, it doesn't have regenerating health, and there aren't ridiculous weapon restrictions, but the levels in Serious Sam work the same way - go into a room and fight off waves of enemies to advance.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's really what comes to mind when I think of the COD experience, and why I don't count many of the games on the list.

Old Post 04-20-14 01:41 #
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Avoozl
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Demigod regen-health is definitely not realistic though.

Old Post 04-20-14 02:18 #
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Sodaholic
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I don't care that I share my name with the protagonist, Serious Sam sucks. The level design is even less creative than CoD, because at least there it isn't big open fields of nothing.

Old Post 04-20-14 02:31 #
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Da Werecat
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Sodaholic said:
The level design is even less creative than CoD, because at least there it isn't big open fields of nothing.

Hardly comparable. Design goals are completely different.

Old Post 04-20-14 02:37 #
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Magnetick
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We all know that Wolfenstien 3D is the best CoD Clone.

Old Post 04-20-14 04:55 #
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DooM_RO
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, old school wannabes like Serious Sam, Painkiller, Hard Reset and ROTT2013 infuriate me a lot more than some COD shooter, mainly because how pretentious the games are, how hard they are trying to make a point, how SHITTY the production values are, how obnoxious everything about them is and just how much they don't get what old school shooters are.

Serious Sam has 300 monsters on the screen, it MUST be like Doom...RIGHT? The IWADS have never been pure slaughterfests. True, there are places where it SEEMS like that but it's not. Games like Serious Sam take only the superficial things about Doom. Doom had atmosphere, personality, interesting monster placement, intricate levels. NONE of the games you mentioned are even close to Doom, they just DON'T GET IT, except maybe Wrack but that's another story, which has its own problems. What infuriates me even more is that the fans of these games consider them to be some kind of holy grail of modern shooters and shove it down our throats like there's no tommorow.

I'll take the awesome shooting and fantastic maps of BF4 any day to some shitty old school wannabe.

P.S Battlefield 3 and 4 are NOTHING like COD outside the campaign. Go play the multiplayer before you judge.

Old Post 04-20-14 05:28 #
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quakke
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DooM_RO said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, old school wannabes like Serious Sam, Painkiller, Hard Reset and ROTT2013 infuriate me a lot more than some COD shooter, mainly because how pretentious the games are, how hard they are trying to make a point, how SHITTY the production values are, how obnoxious everything about them is and just how much they don't get what old school shooters are.

Serious Sam has 300 monsters on the screen, it MUST be like Doom...RIGHT? The IWADS have never been pure slaughterfests. True, there are places where it SEEMS like that but it's not. Games like Serious Sam take only the superficial things about Doom. Doom had atmosphere, personality, interesting monster placement, intricate levels. NONE of the games you mentioned are even close to Doom, they just DON'T GET IT, except maybe Wrack but that's another story, which has its own problems. What infuriates me even more is that the fans of these games consider them to be some kind of holy grail of modern shooters and shove it down our throats like there's no tommorow.

I'll take the awesome shooting and fantastic maps of BF4 any day to some shitty old school wannabe.

P.S Battlefield 3 and 4 are NOTHING like COD outside the campaign. Go play the multiplayer before you judge.



Serious Sam is not full Old School, totally agree with you. Serious Sam still is a hell alot more close to Old School than CoD will ever be, because Serious Sam is about movement (which Old School FPS is about), CoD is about spending time behind cover sucking thumb to have health magically refill.

Serious Sam, Hard Reset, Shadow Warrior could learn a thing or two about Duke Nukem 3D, DOOM and Quake II, because those games indeed do not just throw hordes of monsters against you. Duke 3D has like a good 60 enemies in Level 1 and it's got really good level designing and every enemy has been really carefully handplaced, while Serious Sam and Hard Reset has 100+ enemies in first level, in more of waves than single attacks. But Serious Sam can get away with it because like i remember from an PC Gamer magazine article that i still have, Serious Sam was in the beginning (2001, The First Encounter) a kinda parody of DOOM-like FPS due to Serious Sam changing everything into ridiciolous action, due to throwing 500+ enemies against you who scream "AAAAAAAA!".

edit: And since when has CoD included Secrets and non-linear level design? Never.

Old Post 04-20-14 08:49 #
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Archi
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For me CoD-clone is a game, where player can take no care about level layout, health, ammo, suitable weapons in different situations, accuracy and other. Just stay on rails and play a shooting range. This could be fun, though.

I really enjoyed Shadow Warrior, even though there's health regen, but it's pretty hard to be used during fights. Layout of levels is linear, secrets are often hidden the same way like others and are easy to find.
Bulletstorm is an ok game, but has too many non-skippable cutscenes.
Rage has fun shooting. Everything else is acceptable. Interesting to play once.
Singularity has some interesing, but repeatable time manipulations. Interesting to play once.
Hard Reset has some interesting bosses, everything else is acceptable.
Well, that's probably all the CoD-like games, which I like.

Old Post 04-20-14 09:37 #
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Shaviro
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Some of you people really need to widen your horizons a little. Apparently there are two types of shooters, Doom (oldschool) and CoD (newshool?)?. And D3D/DNF being similar? Holy crap. First off, Duke3D is a shooter with comedic values. Duke Forever is a comedy with shooter segments. That's at the core of what went wrong with DNF. Calling Duke3D's action arena based pretty much invalidates everything else in the post. That's like saying Doom has regenerating health.

Why limit yourself to oldschool and newschool? What school do the "middle era" games like Jedi-Knight, Half-Life and Far Cry belong to? Is that suddenly oldschool? Back in the day every shooter was a "Doom" clone. There were good games that were not like Doom, but most of the clones were generic boring pieces of crap. The genre was more or less just as tired (as it is now) when Half-Life came along and shook things up. Then the Half-Life clones came. It was the new way of doing things. Over time the genre tired once again. Times change.

I would much rather be stuck with "CoD clones" here in 2014 than stuck in 1994 with "Doom clones". Generic piece of crap Doom clone isn't one iota better than generic piece of crap CoD clone or generic piece of crap Half-Life clone. Every odd new shooter isn't mind bogglingly good, but hey they never were. Do I think the first person shooter as a genre is in crisis? Yes! Is it the fault of players, consoles or CoD? No. It is the fault of lazy unimaginative developers (and publishers). Don't kid yourself though. There is plenty of variety to go around and deeming everything a CoD clone is only robbing yourself of whatever good there may be.

The reason why there are no longer games made strictly from the Doom formula is because that is an antiquated way of doing things that would bore the general audience out of their minds. You could bring forward some different aspects of old games and make them work well in a contemporary shooter, but something almost exactly like Doom today? I doubt even people here would enjoy that.

Old Post 04-20-14 10:43 #
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FireFish
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The most exact replica which i have ever played is a game called ;
'Arctic combat'

Its online multiplayer, but no matter how you look at it, it is a heavily inspired almost down right copy of CODMW. They even have the 'power ups / kill streaks.' But this does not mean that its a bad game.

Old Post 04-20-14 10:46 #
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quakke
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Shaviro said:
Some of you people really need to widen your horizons a little. Apparently there are two types of shooters, Doom (oldschool) and CoD (newshool?)?. And D3D/DNF being similar? Holy crap. First off, Duke3D is a shooter with comedic values. Duke Forever is a comedy with shooter segments. That's at the core of what went wrong with DNF. Calling Duke3D's action arena based pretty much invalidates everything else in the post. That's like saying Doom has regenerating health.

Why limit yourself to oldschool and newschool? What school do the "middle era" games like Jedi-Knight, Half-Life and Far Cry belong to? Is that suddenly oldschool? Back in the day every shooter was a "Doom" clone. There were good games that were not like Doom, but most of the clones were generic boring pieces of crap. The genre was more or less just as tired (as it is now) when Half-Life came along and shook things up. Then the Half-Life clones came. It was the new way of doing things. Over time the genre tired once again. Times change.

I would much rather be stuck with "CoD clones" here in 2014 than stuck in 1994 with "Doom clones". Generic piece of crap Doom clone isn't one iota better than generic piece of crap CoD clone or generic piece of crap Half-Life clone. Every odd new shooter isn't mind bogglingly good, but hey they never were. Do I think the first person shooter as a genre is in crisis? Yes! Is it the fault of players, consoles or CoD? No. It is the fault of lazy unimaginative developers (and publishers). Don't kid yourself though. There is plenty of variety to go around and deeming everything a CoD clone is only robbing yourself of whatever good there may be.

The reason why there are no longer games made strictly from the Doom formula is because that is an antiquated way of doing things that would bore the general audience out of their minds. You could bring forward some different aspects of old games and make them work well in a contemporary shooter, but something almost exactly like Doom today? I doubt even people here would enjoy that.



Well, we'll just see since CoD and BF have done very poorly on the sales compared to their previous iterations and infact, EA even already killed whole Medal of Honor series just because the sequel (Warfighter) undersold. CoD Ghosts has undersold quite much according to vgchartz.com compared to MW3's sales (best selling CoD).

Wolfenstein: The New Order is the first AAA FPS in atleast 7 year to be Old School style, and it's not coming alone. It has DOOM 4 and Serious Sam 4 forexample backing it up. Since CoD and BF are now very weak, they are most likely to be replaced by Old School FPS since Wolfenstein: The New Order is garnering alot of positive reception from people, due to being different. Most kids nowadays have never experienced anything else but CoD due to nothing else AAA being released in 7 years but CoD-clones. It's a mirracle if a kid has heard about Rise of the Triad (2013) forexample, because ROTT doesn't have any kinda advertising while CoD and BF have ridiciolous worldwide advertising that ranges from TV commercials to busses covered in adds to whole building wall covering adds.

Old Post 04-20-14 11:21 #
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MFG38
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quakke said:
CoD-clone is anything that has REGENERATING HEALTH and/or IRONSIGHTS and the feel of movement that has been taken from CoD directly. Other features are WEAPON LIMIT, SPRINT, super linear levels, qte's and "RETURN TO COMBAT ZONE".


How about games that only include some of those gameplay elements? Are they categorized as "partial" CoD clones or not CoD clones at all?

__________________
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Old Post 04-20-14 11:27 #
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Phobus
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DooM_RO said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, old school wannabes like Serious Sam, Painkiller, Hard Reset and ROTT2013 infuriate me a lot more than some COD shooter, mainly because how pretentious the games are, how hard they are trying to make a point, how SHITTY the production values are, how obnoxious everything about them is and just how much they don't get what old school shooters are.

Serious Sam has 300 monsters on the screen, it MUST be like Doom...RIGHT? The IWADS have never been pure slaughterfests. True, there are places where it SEEMS like that but it's not. Games like Serious Sam take only the superficial things about Doom. Doom had atmosphere, personality, interesting monster placement, intricate levels.


Have you ever actually played any of the games you're ranting about?

Serious Sam TFE and TSE have hordes, yes, but they also have extensive sections (usually in temples) where you are basically playing Doom or Quake - tight quarters battles in corridors, areas overlooked by ledges, places with crushers and other hazards to dodge, flying enemies coming down from on high or up from below and even the odd monster closet. The hordes are the famous bit because they break up the more exploration-based bits or form Doom-style traps (but ramped up a bit), with the weapons to compensate, as well as the occasional epic battle. SS2 seems to have more in common with what I've played of Halo, whilst SS3 goes from a CoD-style shooter with interesting enemies to a re-tread of TFE, but swapping out irritating suicide toads for irritating monkeys - again, massive hordes do show up, but for most of the first two-thirds of the game it's more street-to-street and corridor stuff than huge open battle fields... There is a considerable lack of enemies on ledges, in pits, etc. compared to the original, but they have Kleers and Antaresian Spiders crawling down walls and lurking on ceilings to get some verticality back in the game, plus the aforementioned irritating monkeys. As for atmosphere - this is a game series that tends to theme its levels very heavily and adjust music based on what is going on. This is pretty subjective, but it feels the part to me. Dark caves and temples with narrow corridors and quiet BGM are tense enough for ambushes to work (hell, even the theme park-style haunted castle level does the job in the misty cemetery... Unless you unleash the bigheads), large open areas tend to be spectacular and stuff like the Babylonian architecture (in TSE HD) glinting under a sunset is the kind of beauty one tours the world for.

Painkiller (Black Edition) plays a bit like if Time Crisis had free motion for dodging rather than just ducking behind your scripted bit of cover and is a game where most things are in front of you and usually on a level with you, but between the interesting boss encounters (where "just shoot it until it dies" isn't a viable tactic), emphasis on dodging and the way you have to swap weapons constantly to keep ahead of the battle, it does crib mechanics from Doom, just not level design.

ROTT 2013 makes use of verticality, unusual power-ups, old-school boss encounters (one thing DNF also would do if you weren't limited in which weapon was effective against them, IMO) and dodging, but again falls afoul of linearity in half of its level design. If anything, this is probably the most old school in terms of mind set because it experiments heavily with its toolset. Floating platforms? We'll make a rotating helix out of them that you have to navigate and go wild platforming in other parts. Jump pads? Fuck it, human pinball in a cave full of lava it is! If anything, this is the kind of thing we need to encourage so we have less shooters limited to realism. Hell, at points this game comes close to Portal in terms of puzzle solving and area navigation.

As for shitty production values... You mean like the original Doom has no bugs, or maps that can become unwinnable if you press the wrong line or fall in the wrong pit? Or doesn't crap out on random events such as staying on the final boss of Doom II for too long? Aside from ROTT 2013 (and Hard Reset, which I can't vouch for), which isn't exactly made by an established studio, the games are put together just fine (my experience in terms of robustness is very good for all SS games and PK) and look great for when they were made.

Whilst I agree that they aren't actually Doom reincarnate, I think that's a good thing, as they capture the old school spirit in their own ways (usually with the environments, soundtracks, weapons, game mechanics, enemy design and occasionally level design). It's certainly not "obnoxious", poorly made or "pretentious". What strikes me about your post is how you've flown off the handle over other people liking games because you've decided they're an insult to Doom, apparently due to not ripping it off enough.

============================================

On the topic of ADS - TimeSplitters 2 and Future Perfect have it (probably the original as well). The levels in the campaign were also pretty linear. Having the features doesn't make a game a CoD clone. It's a weird combination of presentation, theme and over all game play mechanics. Aliens: Colonial Marines is a weird one because, when you're fighting Weyland-Yutani mercs it might as well be CoD but with less effective weapons (at least on the top difficulty) and an Aliens theme pack. However when you're fighting Aliens (or trying to survive against them in non-standard combat situations) it does turn into something else, particularly as there didn't seem to be a limit on sprinting endurance. It'd be like if the Ravenholm part of Half-Life 2 (and some of the ensuing city bits when it's Combine vs. Head Crabs vs. Resistance) could be played with a CoD style control scheme, to an extent, but with more QTEs and weapons customisation. Being totally frank, I didn't mind Aliens: Colonial Marines single-player, but it really came into its own in split-screen co-op, where the challenge almost evaporates entirely (there's a few moments where you can both die quickly, but they're rare) and you just have a lot of Aliens-nostalgic fun with your buddy.

Last edited by Phobus on 04-20-14 at 11:41

Old Post 04-20-14 11:30 #
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Da Werecat
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DooM_RO said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, old school wannabes like Serious Sam, Painkiller, Hard Reset and ROTT2013 infuriate me a lot more than some COD shooter, mainly because how pretentious the games are, how hard they are trying to make a point, how SHITTY the production values are, how obnoxious everything about them is and just how much they don't get what old school shooters are.

You're very emotional. Will pass with age, hopefully.

Old Post 04-20-14 12:05 #
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quakke
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MFG38 said:


How about games that only include some of those gameplay elements? Are they categorized as "partial" CoD clones or not CoD clones at all?



That indeed is a tough call. But imo, healthregen has so big affect on the gameplay style, that "usually" healthregen games (atleast nowadays) are CoD-clones.

Far Cry 2 and 3 to me are not CoD-clones because they do have semi-regenerating health. You have health segments and if you lose one, only way to restore it is to use a health syringe. That changes the fundamental gameplay significantly. If you have health that you can maanually apply whenever you want (provided that you have health to use), you can go Rambo due to you taking health when you're at critical (without having to go hide behind cover). Halo 2 is another example. Halo 2 has full healthregen, BUT Halo has emphassis on movement and thus enemies do not consist of hitscan weapons, you may actually dodge the bullets and thus play it completely differently from CoD. Rainbow Six Vegas is last example. Eventhough it does have full healthregen, the basic traditional "plan your tactics" gameplay is still the main thing. Yes you do hide behind cover in it, but you already did so in Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield (2003) which had no health regen, so healthregen didn't really change the fundamental gameplay of Rainbow Six.

Stuff like Duke Nukem Forever's fundamental gameplay however, is completely different from Duke 3D. You have to hide behind cover in DNF because the enemy has hitscan weapons which you cannot dodge, and because Duke moves soo slow in DNF compared to Duke 3D and you dying from traditional 2-4 shots due to healthregen. You have to hide behind cover in Duke Forever because the weapon limit doesn't allow you to have weapon for every situation like in Duke 3D.

Reason why Crysis 1 is almost not CoD-clone, is because it is quite a thing. Crysis 1 does not require you to use aimdownsights, you can truly move fast in Crysis 1 due to "Maximum Speed" actually being fast, due to cloak working etc.. Crysis 2 and 3 have "Maximum speed" replaced with regular CoD-sprint. A real life human run speed. Crysis 1 can be played in quite different ways due to it having some originality. I think i may have to actually remove Crysis 1 (2007) from that list because of the reasons i just gave. But that explains it again. Crysis 1 was also barely released before this CoD fad so naturally it has potential to be original since it wasn't inspired by CoD gameplay.

Old Post 04-20-14 12:34 #
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DooM_RO
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Phobus said:

Have you ever actually played any of the games you're ranting about?

Serious Sam TFE and TSE have hordes, yes, but they also have extensive sections (usually in temples) where you are basically playing Doom or Quake - tight quarters battles in corridors, areas overlooked by ledges, places with crushers and other hazards to dodge, flying enemies coming down from on high or up from below and even the odd monster closet. The hordes are the famous bit because they break up the more exploration-based bits or form Doom-style traps (but ramped up a bit), with the weapons to compensate, as well as the occasional epic battle. SS2 seems to have more in common with what I've played of Halo, whilst SS3 goes from a CoD-style shooter with interesting enemies to a re-tread of TFE, but swapping out irritating suicide toads for irritating monkeys - again, massive hordes do show up, but for most of the first two-thirds of the game it's more street-to-street and corridor stuff than huge open battle fields... There is a considerable lack of enemies on ledges, in pits, etc. compared to the original, but they have Kleers and Antaresian Spiders crawling down walls and lurking on ceilings to get some verticality back in the game, plus the aforementioned irritating monkeys. As for atmosphere - this is a game series that tends to theme its levels very heavily and adjust music based on what is going on. This is pretty subjective, but it feels the part to me. Dark caves and temples with narrow corridors and quiet BGM are tense enough for ambushes to work (hell, even the theme park-style haunted castle level does the job in the misty cemetery... Unless you unleash the bigheads), large open areas tend to be spectacular and stuff like the Babylonian architecture (in TSE HD) glinting under a sunset is the kind of beauty one tours the world for.

Painkiller (Black Edition) plays a bit like if Time Crisis had free motion for dodging rather than just ducking behind your scripted bit of cover and is a game where most things are in front of you and usually on a level with you, but between the interesting boss encounters (where "just shoot it until it dies" isn't a viable tactic), emphasis on dodging and the way you have to swap weapons constantly to keep ahead of the battle, it does crib mechanics from Doom, just not level design.

ROTT 2013 makes use of verticality, unusual power-ups, old-school boss encounters (one thing DNF also would do if you weren't limited in which weapon was effective against them, IMO) and dodging, but again falls afoul of linearity in half of its level design. If anything, this is probably the most old school in terms of mind set because it experiments heavily with its toolset. Floating platforms? We'll make a rotating helix out of them that you have to navigate and go wild platforming in other parts. Jump pads? Fuck it, human pinball in a cave full of lava it is! If anything, this is the kind of thing we need to encourage so we have less shooters limited to realism. Hell, at points this game comes close to Portal in terms of puzzle solving and area navigation.

As for shitty production values... You mean like the original Doom has no bugs, or maps that can become unwinnable if you press the wrong line or fall in the wrong pit? Or doesn't crap out on random events such as staying on the final boss of Doom II for too long? Aside from ROTT 2013 (and Hard Reset, which I can't vouch for), which isn't exactly made by an established studio, the games are put together just fine (my experience in terms of robustness is very good for all SS games and PK) and look great for when they were made.

Whilst I agree that they aren't actually Doom reincarnate, I think that's a good thing, as they capture the old school spirit in their own ways (usually with the environments, soundtracks, weapons, game mechanics, enemy design and occasionally level design). It's certainly not "obnoxious", poorly made or "pretentious". What strikes me about your post is how you've flown off the handle over other people liking games because you've decided they're an insult to Doom, apparently due to not ripping it off enough.

============================================

On the topic of ADS - TimeSplitters 2 and Future Perfect have it (probably the original as well). The levels in the campaign were also pretty linear. Having the features doesn't make a game a CoD clone. It's a weird combination of presentation, theme and over all game play mechanics. Aliens: Colonial Marines is a weird one because, when you're fighting Weyland-Yutani mercs it might as well be CoD but with less effective weapons (at least on the top difficulty) and an Aliens theme pack. However when you're fighting Aliens (or trying to survive against them in non-standard combat situations) it does turn into something else, particularly as there didn't seem to be a limit on sprinting endurance. It'd be like if the Ravenholm part of Half-Life 2 (and some of the ensuing city bits when it's Combine vs. Head Crabs vs. Resistance) could be played with a CoD style control scheme, to an extent, but with more QTEs and weapons customisation. Being totally frank, I didn't mind Aliens: Colonial Marines single-player, but it really came into its own in split-screen co-op, where the challenge almost evaporates entirely (there's a few moments where you can both die quickly, but they're rare) and you just have a lot of Aliens-nostalgic fun with your buddy.



I did play this game, especially when I was younger. The problem I have with this game is this. It is obviously inspired by the likes of Doom BUT it is just a caricature, however the game is "serious" enough that it is not always obvious.

So by explaining what I feel about the game I first have to say what I feel about Doom. The majority of the game is action (about 60% of it) and the rest is survival horror and exploration. This is what gives the game variety and depth. However, even if to a newcomer Doom is simply about brainless killing of hordes with no tactics it's not really like that. You have enemies on ledges, in closets, attacking you in interesting ways which force you to adapt (a baron of hell is far more dangerous in a cramped hallway than in an open arena and so are shotgun guys)

Now the problem with the game is that everything in the game is a caricature of Doom. Not only that but it exaggerates the superficial traits of Doom. What does a player who once loved Doom think about when he remembers the game? Hordes of monsters! The thing is that Doom is a lot more than that and even when there are hordes of monsters it (often) deals with them in an interesting way.

You see the problem I have with these "old school" reincarnations is the culture they breed! They make people think that old school shooters are supposed to be brainless and stupid to be enjoyable (from a gameplay {POV). In a lot of these "old school" shooters secrets and non-linearity are just kind of there. Sure you might find a weapon or some ammo but they are in the end just empty calories but since they are there people don't care because despite the low quality it is automatically better because of how "old school" they are.

Here is another example: Old school shooters are often (and rightfully so) praised for satisfying gunplay but nowadays satisfying gunplay is simply misunderstood. Take ROTT2013 for instance: the weapons have no real kick, and the animations are just piss poor in general. It's like they are trying to compensate for something. The sound is CRAP, the way they look is CRAP (NOT graphical fidelity) the animations are CRAP, the blood spurts ARE plentiful but CRAP. Today there is somekind of recognition that "crazy" weapon effects are manadatory to be old school but they are NOT. Doom has quite a normal arsenal, the only exception are of course the plasma gun and BFG. Have you ever thought why shooting a pinky with the SSG is SO satisfying? It's something I like to call Action and Reaction:

Action are all the LITTLE mechanincs that make the shotgun work for instance:

First the way it looks and sounds: despite the fact that it's a sprite it looks and animates good!

Secondly: The sounds. I never get tired of listening to the BOOM CLICK CLACK

Reaction is how the monsters react to you shooting at them:

First you hear the shotgun sound and then in immediate succession you hear the death rattle of the pinky.

Secendly the death animations are just perfect. I think sprites are in a way the superior way of protraying violence BECAUSE of the short delay, they are almost stopmotion. Seeing the immages go in succession make the violence even more satisfying...it's a bit hard to explain.

This is what modern old school shooters seem to ignore. They not only think it is perfectly fine to discard these intricacies but that intricacies have no place in old school shooters because they wrongfully perceive them as brainless entertainment. Doom is not tactical in the way Deus Ex is, it forces you to adapt during the fight. There is just no satisfaction in killing stuff in Hard Reset or Serious Sam. YES, the guns are over the top but that does not make them GOOD. This is why I consider RAGE to have some of the best gunplay in years, they are fun to SHOOT. The animations are cool, the animations that play every time you pick a new weapon is a very nice and fitting treat, the way changing ammo slightly changes the look and feel of the weapon and the projectile itself, how enemies react when you hit them, the interesting alternative fire modes, how sparks fly off Authority soldiers when you shoot them (and the very satisfying clang they produce). Even if Id Software have largely lost their touch nowadays, they STILL understand that the PERSONALITY in a SHOOTER comes best from the weapons and enemies. For me the ultimate expression of personality of shooters is the NON verbal stuff. NOW Serious Sam DOES do this to an extent but does it superficially and without flair.

To make an analogy, it would be like a guy who tries be confident to a girl by being a douchebag to her, he tries to compensate for something. This is why Doom is such a great game, it does not PRETEND to be ANYTHING, it simply IS and this is a reason why it is so good. Serious Sam and Painkiller TRY TOO HARD but a lot of misguided people buy it and this creates a toxic culture that thinks it has the right to dictate how a good shooter should be AND thinks it has the right to say that Doom is just a brainless shooter. Moreover, since they perceive themselves to be so old school they think they are wiser and more experienced and this is where the condescending attitude of a lot of (not all) fans of these games comes from.


I know a lot of you hate Brutal Doom for the same reasons

I hope my post made sense.


Da Werecat said:

You're very emotional. Will pass with age, hopefully.



I tend to get a little excited when I talk about games.

Last edited by DooM_RO on 04-20-14 at 12:56

Old Post 04-20-14 12:41 #
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Da Werecat
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DooM_RO said:
However, even if to a newcomer Doom is simply about brainless killing of hordes with no tactics it's not really like that.

A little hint: did you get past being a newcomer when playing Serious Sam?

Old Post 04-20-14 12:56 #
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quakke
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DooM_RO said:



Now the problem with the game is that everything in the game is a caricature of Doom. Not only that but it exaggerates the superficial traits of Doom. What does a player who once loved Doom think about when he remembers the game? Hordes of monsters! The thing is that Doom is a lot more than that and even when there are hordes of monsters it (often) deals with them in an interesting way.

You see the problem I have with these "old school" reincarnations is the culture they breeds! They make people think that old school shooters are supposed to be brainless and stupid to be enjoyable (from a gameplay {POV). In a lot of these old school shooters secrets and non-linearity are just kind of there. Sure you might find a weapon or some ammo but they are in the end just empty calories but since they are there people don't care because despite the low quality it is automatically better because of how "old school" they are.

Here is another example: Old school shooters are often (and rightfully so) praised for satisfying gunplay but nowadays satisfying gunplay is simply misunderstood. Take ROTT2013 for instance: the weapons have no real kick, and the animations are just piss poor in general. It's like they are trying to compensate for something. The sound is CRAP, the way they look is CRAP (NOT graphical fidelity) the animations are CRAP, the blood spurts ARE plentiful but CRAP. Today there is somekind of recognition that "crazy" weapon effects are manadatory to be old school but they are NOT. Doom has quite a normal arsenal, the only exception are of course the plasma gun and BFG. Have you ever thought why shooting a pinky with the SSG is SO satisfying? It's something I like to call Action and Reaction:




You might be supprised but we are on a very same altitude. DOOM has great level designing with every enemy really carefully handplaced. DOOM has puzzles and stuff, more than brainless shooting. Limited resources, having to find hard secrets due to getting resoruces/power weapon. ROTT and all the games but Wrack, are missing alot of the Old School FPS points.

Have you ever imagined why these Old School tries are not very well done? Because they are made by like people like me, people who do not have hundreds of millions budget backing them up, they come from people with literally no spare money (I also have an UDK development going on now, and now that i received a no here for support to my free DOOM game/mod couple of months ago, i decided to start with a real engine. I've made some progess already. Actual 3D objects, partial levels, first level music..). Rise of the Triad was literally paid by the devs. Devs paid from their OWN money anything they could spare, yet it ended up that well still considering how it was also remote development (people made were developing it in their own home in Africa, USA, EU.. not in the same building but all over the world)

Ever imagined if these Rise of the Triads were given a chance to play with 500 000 000 milloin budget (went overboard, i know), how would things turnout to be? We'd have high quality Old School FPS in AAA market. This is where Wolfenstein: The New Order comes into play. WTNO is finally an AAA Old School FPS development, and it has a goal of returning Old School FPS and since Wolfenstein and DOOM are the FPS genre creators and CoD and BF being very weak at the moment, derailing is about to happen. Especially since WTNO has this Old School FPS backup that is thanks to all the Indies who've kept Old School FPS alive in this past very hard 7 years.

Last edited by quakke on 04-20-14 at 13:56

Old Post 04-20-14 13:00 #
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@quakke

This isn't about money, it's about understanding what Doom is about. OR they do understand but they take one aspect of a game and expand it, in this case make a caricature of it. However, since the average gamer has only vague memories about killing hordes of monsters and because they deem older shooters to be simpler a large portion think that this reincarnation IS the real deal and the fact that so many seemingly older people praise it serves only to amplify this. I'm not saying that Doom is NOT a simple game because it is. The base mechanics are simple but the complexities of the game come from the situations you are put in. I am in a tight corridor with low health, a baron 6 rockets and 12 shells. Do I kill it with the shotty or the rocket launcher? See what I'm getting at? This is one aspect that Doom 3 managed to do reasonably well it wasn't fantastic but it was serviceable.


Da Werecat said:

A little hint: did you get past being a newcomer when playing Serious Sam?



I used to play it quite regularly a few years ago but I've come to dislike it because it makes a lot of people consider it something of a holy grail of modern shooters.

Here is an article that further exemplifies what I am trying to say http://videogamepotpourri.blogspot....us-sam-and.html

This too

http://blog.danbo.vg/post/500942768...ame-of-all-time

Last edited by DooM_RO on 04-20-14 at 13:10

Old Post 04-20-14 13:02 #
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DooM_RO said:
I used to play it quite regularly a few years ago but I've come to dislike it because it makes a lot of people consider it something of a holy grail of modern shooters.

A really good reason to hate something, I gotta say.

By the way, do you think you're wiser and more experienced because you're so "truly" old-school?

Old Post 04-20-14 13:05 #
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Da Werecat said:

A really good reason to hate something, I gotta say.

By the way, do you think you're wiser and more experienced because you're so "truly" old-school?



Oh not at all but on almost every gaming forum I see comments that Serious Sam and Painkiller are the "real" Doom 3 without providing any clear explanation and now I am getting back at these comments. I am also doing this because I don't want Doom 4 to be some kind of shitty Serious Sam clone. I'd rather have it be like Doom 3, which despite what you may think had lots of old school in it such as resource and secret hunting, was relatively nonlinear (especially to what we have today) non regenerating health, much less cutscenes interrupting the game. Doom 4 should be like a much evolved Doom 3 but with far better level design, gunplay and enemy placement. Doom 3 already had everything it needed to be a great Doom remake the fact that it wasn't so well executed can be attributed somewhat to the engine and the fact that it was made by under 30 people....but that's another story.

Here is an interesting comment by the guy who wrote the first article I posted

Doom was not a linear run from point A to point B as is the case in Serious Sam and Painkiller. It was about exploring levels, finding keys (some of which took a fair amount of searching to find), and sometimes even solving environmental puzzles. AND, of course, shooting things. But even there, shooting things in Doom was NEVER about mob control. At least not to the extent of Serious Sam or Painkiller.

My point here is that while SS/Painkiller channeled much of the spirit of Doom's combat, Doom 3 channeled the rest of the game (or at least remembered the rest, which is still more than SS/Painkiller). People like to pick and choose what parts of Doom they want to remember, and forget just how much of the game involved exploring (especially Doom 2).

Seriously, go boot up Doom 2 and warp to one of the later "cityscape" levels. Unless you've memorized the levels, I guarantee you will spend a lot of time looking for keys or doors after you've killed everything.

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Phml
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This too

http://blog.danbo.vg/post/500942768...ame-of-all-time


Hate to break it to you, but if you scroll past the first lines or so, you'll see he references AV, Scythe 2, DV2... All popular favorites of that horde gameplay you love to bash so much.

The whole article has little to nothing to say about the atmosphere or puzzles or keyhunting or whatever it is you're defending as the essence of oldschool gaming here. It's largely focused on combat, weapons, bestiary, etc..

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You don't understand, I am not against slaughterfests, I am simply against this culture spawned by Serious Sam and Painkiller that slaughterfests are the only thing that made Doom memorable and that everything else is invalid.

P.S the first article does.

"People like to pick and choose what parts of Doom they want to remember" I find this very true concerning people who don't play it regularly.

Old Post 04-20-14 13:31 #
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quakke
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DooM_RO said:


Oh not at all but on almost every gaming forum I see comments that Serious Sam and Painkiller are the "real" Doom 3 without providing any clear explanation and now I am getting back at these comments. I am also doing this because I don't want Doom 4 to be some kind of shitty Serious Sam clone. I'd rather have it be like Doom 3, which despite what you may think had lots of old school in it such as resource and secret hunting, was relatively nonlinear (especially to what we have today) non regenerating health, much less cutscenes interrupting the game. Doom 4 should be like a much evolved Doom 3 but with far better level design, gunplay and enemy placement. Doom 3 already had everything it needed to be a great Doom remake the fact that it wasn't so well executed can be attributed somewhat to the engine and the fact that it was made by under 30 people....but that's another story.

Here is an interesting comment by the guy who wrote the first article I posted

Doom was not a linear run from point A to point B as is the case in Serious Sam and Painkiller. It was about exploring levels, finding keys (some of which took a fair amount of searching to find), and sometimes even solving environmental puzzles. AND, of course, shooting things. But even there, shooting things in Doom was NEVER about mob control. At least not to the extent of Serious Sam or Painkiller.

My point here is that while SS/Painkiller channeled much of the spirit of Doom's combat, Doom 3 channeled the rest of the game (or at least remembered the rest, which is still more than SS/Painkiller). People like to pick and choose what parts of Doom they want to remember, and forget just how much of the game involved exploring (especially Doom 2).

Seriously, go boot up Doom 2 and warp to one of the later "cityscape" levels. Unless you've memorized the levels, I guarantee you will spend a lot of time looking for keys or doors after you've killed everything.



Again like i said, we are on a very same altitude here. DOOM 3 had secrets, doors that said piss off (go look for the key), enemies that didn't just arrive in waves..

The situation would be absolutely terrible if these Old School FPS (or how you like to call them. Complete Serious Sam-clones) weren't made. If Painkiller HD, Hard Reset, Rise of the Triad and especially Wrack didn't exists, we'd only have these CoD-clones and couple of realistic Simulations like Arma. That would be pretty much the death of Old School FPS. Luckily though passionate people have made these games (even if they don't quite reach to level of DOOM) atleast something different to CoD has been made, and somewhat similar (health management, secrets, no weaponlimi, no regen, no sprint) to DOOM has been made. Because literally, if these 6 Old School FPS hadn't been made, CoD-clone/Spunkgargleweewee would be literally the one that overrides everything else since there hadn't been any resistance to fight against it.

I hope DOOM 4 to take inspiration in the level designing and fundamental gameplay from DOOM and DOOM 2. Under any circumstances i do not want to see this happen to DOOM. Most likely it won't either happen since Bethesda seems destined to bring Old School FPS back, and Machine Games are doing great job in introducing it slowly to mainstream.

http://refugeinaudacity.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/leveldesignclassic.jpg?w=595

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DooM_RO said:
despite what you may think

It's not about what I think about Doom successors. I have the ability to perceive games on their own.

Nevertheless, I will help you with your propaganda.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/uncle_doom.png

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I don't really think SS and Painkiller are bad, after all I used to enjoy them but I also don't think they are as good as some say nor that they are the true Doom 3.


Let's put this in perspective. How would you feel if someone said that the only good doom maps are slaughtermaps? Moreover, a lot of people hate Brutal Doom for the same reasons I dislike Serious Sam and Painkiller. It has spawned this culture that thinks it has the right to bash vanilla maps simply because they are not balanced for Brutal Doom. I LOVE Brutal Doom and maps balanced for it but I HATE it when some Brutal Doom fanboytardnewfag has the audacity to give vanilla maps 0/5 because they are not balanced for Brutal Doom.

The point is that this cancels out the OTHER things that made Doom good. I think action comprises the majority of the Doom experience (let's say 60%) but even then the action is present in multiple ways as said in previous posts. The problem is that Serious Sam, Painkiller and Brutal Doom (for some) claim that only ONE of these traits is true, therefore canceling out the other things that made 90s FPSes good. Doom 90s shooters like Duke3D is a COMBINATION of action, exploration and atmosphere, they need ALL of these to some extent to be complete.

Old Post 04-20-14 13:49 #
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DooM_RO said:
How would you feel if someone said that the only good doom maps are slaughtermaps?

Hm. Now that you asked it, I think it would trigger an endless crusade against slaughtermaps. I would bring them up in every thread, say a lot of unpleasant things (but tone them down after some retalitaion, of course), etc.

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