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DooM_RO
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Have you ever thought why people started to hate COD? It is because its features have started to seep into games where they have no business to be. I loved COD4 when it came out and even MW2. I do not hate it because it is made by Activision or because it is successful, I hate it made developers into spineless sycophants that think that every FPS should be like COD. If it was its own successful niche that did its own thing it would be fine. People hate it because developers think that it is the only way to make a shooter which in turn stifles creativity and variety. in the industry.

Old Post 04-20-14 14:12 #
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Da Werecat
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You probably won't believe me, but some people still hate Doom for destroying an aura of intelligence around PC games. Food for thought.

Old Post 04-20-14 14:20 #
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DooM_RO
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Like Warren Spector? http://www.destructoid.com/warren-s...in-253257.phtml

Not Doom but essentially the same thing.

Old Post 04-20-14 14:54 #
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StevieCybernetik
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Didn't this same sort of thing happen with Doom though? Literally the term Doom Clones was coined because of how many FPS's were literally ripping the game off. When someone comes out with something that becomes popular because it has mechanics that just work well for it, other people are going to follow suit with that. Why? Because its easiest to pump out games that way. I agree this sucks, but you're not really gonna just change the minds of these development studios when it comes to how they make games.

Old Post 04-20-14 16:23 #
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DooM_RO
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True, but most Doom clones brought advancements to the genre, at a time when it was really needed. Duke Nukem 3D for instance provided a more realistic and immersive setting, more ineteractivity, usable items.

Old Post 04-20-14 16:39 #
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Mr. Freeze
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DooM_RO said:
True, but most Doom clones brought advancements to the genre, at a time when it was really needed. Duke Nukem 3D for instance provided a more realistic and immersive setting, more ineteractivity, usable items.


ahahahahahahahahaha holy shit

I see you don't remember Operation Body Count, Heretic, Rise of the Triad, etc.

Doom clones are stale. Clones usually are. What amazes me are the mental gymnastics of "retro" gamers trying to justify one ripoff over another ripoff. CoD clones aren't any better or worse off than Doom clones were. You may not like CoD enough to enjoy the clones any more, but that's besides the point- the marketing is the same, the intent is the same, the execution is the same.

As for me, I don't blame CoD at all- it hit a formula touched on by Halo and ran with it. And speaking of blaming games, you guys need to stop doing that- games don't come to life and demand other games follow their example. That's just what the devs think the market wants. And if you want to blame people for buying entertainment you don't like, I guess you can start calling yourself bitter.

Old Post 04-20-14 17:48 #
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Da Werecat
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DooM_RO, you should probably delve into something less mainstream and more ancient than FPS games. Otherwise you may meet a really old fart in one of these conversations about better times, and he will elitist you to the moon.

Old Post 04-20-14 17:55 #
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Phobus
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DooM_RO said:
You see the problem I have with these "old school" reincarnations is the culture they breed! They make people think that old school shooters are supposed to be brainless and stupid to be enjoyable (from a gameplay {POV). In a lot of these "old school" shooters secrets and non-linearity are just kind of there. Sure you might find a weapon or some ammo but they are in the end just empty calories but since they are there people don't care because despite the low quality it is automatically better because of how "old school" they are.

Here is another example: Old school shooters are often (and rightfully so) praised for satisfying gunplay but nowadays satisfying gunplay is simply misunderstood. Take ROTT2013 for instance: the weapons have no real kick, and the animations are just piss poor in general. It's like they are trying to compensate for something. The sound is CRAP, the way they look is CRAP (NOT graphical fidelity) the animations are CRAP, the blood spurts ARE plentiful but CRAP. Today there is somekind of recognition that "crazy" weapon effects are manadatory to be old school but they are NOT.


Culture? You mean like the one where people who like Doom "RAEG" on Doom forums about how crap modern "old school" games are? You say ROTT 2013 has everything "CRAP" - I put it to you that you're talking crap. The Firebomb in particular is the most satisfying gun I've used in a long, long time. Pump action, squirt of steam after firing and it's a nice, chunky looking weapon with an obviously damaging impact. The homing missile with the little screen, the DRUNK missile launcher (a gun with very obvious kick, when in full auto, unlike anything in Doom, which just uses animations and actually holds weapons still when firing full auto) - they are fun weapons that I can't imagine people getting tired of. You get great feedback from the visual effects and sounds for the various explosions, smoke trails and the like.


DooM_RO said:
Have you ever thought why shooting a pinky with the SSG is SO satisfying?

You mean like how a kleer bursts apart when hit with a double barrelled shotgun at close range and the bones clatter away? Nope, no idea... You don't need to explain this shit to me, I've been mapping for and playing this game long enough to know what the appeal is.


DooM_RO said:
Secendly the death animations are just perfect. I think sprites are in a way the superior way of protraying violence BECAUSE of the short delay, they are almost stopmotion. Seeing the immages go in succession make the violence even more satisfying...it's a bit hard to explain.

This is what modern old school shooters seem to ignore. They not only think it is perfectly fine to discard these intricacies but that intricacies have no place in old school shooters because they wrongfully perceive them as brainless entertainment. Doom is not tactical in the way Deus Ex is, it forces you to adapt during the fight. There is just no satisfaction in killing stuff in Hard Reset or Serious Sam. YES, the guns are over the top but that does not make them GOOD. This is why I consider RAGE to have some of the best gunplay in years, they are fun to SHOOT. The animations are cool, the animations that play every time you pick a new weapon is a very nice and fitting treat, the way changing ammo slightly changes the look and feel of the weapon and the projectile itself, how enemies react when you hit them, the interesting alternative fire modes, how sparks fly off Authority soldiers when you shoot them (and the very satisfying clang they produce). Even if Id Software have largely lost their touch nowadays, they STILL understand that the PERSONALITY in a SHOOTER comes best from the weapons and enemies. For me the ultimate expression of personality of shooters is the NON verbal stuff. NOW Serious Sam DOES do this to an extent but does it superficially and without flair.


So you're saying that death animations, enemies that match up to specific weapons and "because you like it" are what makes Doom so great... Well, in that case, Serious Sam is great, because I like it, even in the HD remakes and Serious Sam 3 enemies like the Werebull have animated deaths and between guns like the minigun (which steams after a lengthy squeeze on the trigger), rocket launcher and coach gun, it has very meaty weaponry that feels powerful and needs to be switched between on the fly to handle crowds well. Can't you see how these giant rants of yours are a combination of your opinion and bullshit? I mean, serious, the culture surrounding old school shooters bothers you? I suppose you hate CoD because 12-year-olds and frat boys, too? You talk about intricacies in Doom and then gloss over the exact same stuff, but implemented with modern tools and rendered at a higher resolution with more frames of animation, in recent games. Sounds to me like you've spent so long with Doom you're almost jealously guarding yourself from stuff that other people enjoy. You are allowed to like other games, it won't suddenly make Doom crap or have the whole world know you've sold out.

Old Post 04-20-14 18:30 #
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quakke
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Mr. Freeze said:



Doom clones..



Difference is, that DOOM-clones like Duke Nukem 3D, Kingpin, or SW: Jedi Knight: Dark Forces actually were clones from a working formula. DOOM requires you to use your head due to nothing being done for you. It's you who has to get health in DOOM, you who gets more ammo if you are low on it, you who has to figure your way on your own to the exit.

CoD-clones are bad because CoD is not a working formula to clone, CoD is a dumbed down game. Health regen heals you automatically so you have to think less. Health regen is like a handicap mode in FPS games, weaponlimit has to do with controllers having difficulties in dealing with changing 15 weapons at once, Aimdownsights is not just solely in use because "it's realistic". ADS is in use because games are being made for consoles and ADS is a fancy mechanics for console players with their controllers to jump from one DPI sensitivity to next. From high sensitivity which works for turning and moving, to low sensitivity which is for well, aiming. PC doesn't need any aimdownsights (unless it's an Simulation we are talking about) since FPS has worked fine since 1992 without it. Sprint is in use because online FPS would be too difficult on consoles if you'd be able to fly around like in Quake 3. Instead make player completely vurlnerable and unable to defend their selves while they run so that you are an easy helpless moving target, and aimdownsights slows movement for others to able to hit an easy target that is practically staying still.

That has been cloned to everywhere and that means all games are very shallow. Serious Sams and those games actually require you to think because they have the working formula in the core, DOOM. DOOM never had any blinking arrows either which show you the way, CoD has them and now they are also everywhere.

You move in CoD and you get ammo after ammo (like a Pac Man), no need to go actually looking for the ammo since that again would be too difficult. *sigh*

Old Post 04-20-14 18:36 #
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Da Werecat
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quakke said:
Doom-clones are bad because Doom is not a working formula to clone, Doom is a dumbed down game.

FTFY.

You just need to know what to compare it to.

Old Post 04-20-14 18:48 #
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mrthejoshmon
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The problem is that almost every game that has guns that function like actual guns needs regenerating health otherwise you would be fucked (2 to 3 bullets is dead, does that sound like a fun time sticking to that limit until you find a health kit? Trust me it is not)

Also Battlefield is completely different to CoD in many ways.

The health system is different, also the health system has been the same in BF for a while now (regenerating health was used in "Bad Company" for instance) it does not regenerate on like CoD health (It takes 30 seconds or so, and there is use of medikits to speed it up). Guns have bullet drop and do not act like railguns (Which gives you a compelling reason to use ADS with them) and there is also vehicular gameplay in there (not to mention the super human infinite sprint you got).

Old Post 04-20-14 19:19 #
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Aliotroph?
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TIL Red Faction: Guerrilla and Skyrim are CoD clones.

Old Post 04-20-14 20:10 #
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40oz
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Wow this thread really got ought of hand with the hair splitting. Umm doom clones and codclones are both bad for the sane reasons. They're lacking in innovation and original thoughts and ideas. A call of duty clone is tricky to describe in excruciating detail, but in general its a game that's designed in such a way that if you've played codmw before, you'll have no trouble adapting to the general flow of the game, which as quakke describes as having regenerating health, taking lots of cover, aimdownsights, and other stuff.

in short, someone who's really accustomed to those game play elements found in call of duty and similar games would have a lot of trouble adapting to doom or a game like doom because the primary objectives are different. Like in that article about how doom is still a great game, the game play is more focused on using your swift movement and reaction time to evade the monsters different attack patterns, which aids a panicky escape from hell / run for your life type of game. Because of call of duty cloning, sometimes you'll see a game where a new kind of gameplay is expected and you don't get it.

I feel more shooters need what the skate series did to the Tony hawk series. It created a fresh new set of rules and controls and game play elements that were still essentially designed to fit the scope of the game. If there were more shooters who were more comfortable with explaining new rules to their loyal customer base and giving them a brand new environment to adapt to, wed have much more interesting games in the shooter market. But at the moment, we have plenty call of duty clones.

Old Post 04-20-14 20:32 #
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DooM_RO
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I don't really have anything against COD, like I said I used to like it. The real reason I hate it is because its features are starting to seep in games where it has no business to be...like that new Syndicate.

Now if COD were its own niche of cinematic shooters I would probably still enjoy it but to see it in every game makes me sick.

Thankfully Serious Sam is only its own niche but some very vocal people think that type of gameplay is the only way to make an old school shooter. It's like saying only Brutal Doom or Slaughter maps can be cool and demanding every map to be like that. For the record I LOVE Brutal Doom and slaughter maps like Deus Vult 2 and Scythe 2 but I don't think they invalidate other kinds of maps such as atmospheric maps, vanilla maps, vanilla maps that push the engine to its limits, very detailed maps. In the end they are all valid Doom experiences because the original games had encounters/levels from which these trends started in the first place. One aspect of Doom does not invalidate another. Some say that doom is a pure action game, some say it's scary game, some think its somewhere in between. I fall in the latter category.

NOW I think that everything in Doom 3 was Doom. It had keycard hunting in the form of PDAs, ammo management, secret huntin, reasonably non-linear levels, amazing atmosphere. Now atmosphere is one of the most important things in Doom but in Doom 3 it invalidated the action part. When Id made Doom 3 I can hear some of them say "Doom is a scary game" while others say "doom is all about action" while others say "Doom is about exploration". Considering the outcome of the game, it's safe to assume that most thought it was horror. And to an extent they ARE right, the original Doom was a scary game at its time BUT it also had emphasis on action and exploration. All of these were in Doom 3 (how well they were executed is another story) but the problem is that they were overlooked in favor of horror. In conclusion, action, horror and exploration are all VITAL to Doom and none completely override the other. Making Doom a pure action game like Serious Sam or Painkiller would be a big mistake, as big as making Doom 3 a pure horror game with gameplay and exploration coming after. They were still there but were not developed to their fullest potential. It doesn't matter if the atmosphere was top notch, there needs to be a balance.

THAT is why I dislike the culture around the likes of Serious Sam, because they think that in old school shooters only action is important which is clearly not and the variety of the Doom community maps is evidence of that. I dislike it because it overrides all the other things that are essential to a good old school FPS. Doom maps typically take one aspect of Doom and improve it or exaggerate it but I wouldn't say that zdoom maps are better than vanilla maps for instance. It is perfectly ok to like a specific type of game/map until you start saying that it is the only way to make a game/map. This is what Serious Sam and say Brutal Doom did. They took a specific parts of the game and emphasized them but because action and violence are the most evident and deeply planted memories in the minds of people who haven't played it in a long time it makes them think that they were emphasized BECAUSE they are the most important things in Doom. Now how important each of these traits is to a specific person is subjective but the fact that Doom and say Duke 3D had all of them is objective.

Last edited by DooM_RO on 04-20-14 at 22:08

Old Post 04-20-14 21:58 #
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Phml
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Even if this hypothetical group of people bent on yelling Serious Sam is the best game ever and the only way to do an oldschool FPS exists, none of them are here.

Old Post 04-21-14 00:38 #
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Belial
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Oh, I'm here, believe me :P

I don't give two shits about 'atmosphere' or 'horror' in Doom. I'd be happy with all Doom maps being high monster-count, constant action slaughterfests in the vein of HR2 map32.

Serious Sam TSE is the closest any game has ever come to matching that sort of action (TFE falls a bit short due to less enemy and weapon variety).

If you only see SS arenas as 'hordes' you're simplifying away reptiloid snipers, harpies coming in from above, kleer/kamikaze rushes and all the other enemy combinations that contribute to a well choreographed fight that's challenging to the point of being survivable only through making the right choices regarding weapon use and having good enough movement skills (talking about Serious/Mental difficulty of course).

It's that balance between the weapons you have and what the opposition is packing that makes designing such entertaining combat situations possible. Phobus' SSG vs kleer example hits the nail on the head.

Just like Doom 2 gives you the tools to make slaughtermaps despite there not being a single one in the original mapset, you're free to make low monster-count, 'atmospheric' maps for Serious Sam. The weapon/enemy set gives you even more freedom than Doom's.

Last edited by Belial on 04-21-14 at 01:46

Old Post 04-21-14 01:23 #
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Doominator2
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Hey quakke, can you please explain why the hell you think Crysis is a cod clone? Have you played Crysis? (or most of the games you listed anyways) Why is Far Cry 3 not a cod clone,(not saying it is but its more dumbed down than crysis IMO) thats another answer I want answered.

Old Post 04-21-14 01:51 #
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Doomhuntress
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the only problem i have with Serious Sam (only played TFE and TSE, for clarification) is that the Thompson is absolutely useless. it's slower than the Gatling Gun, AND it deals less damage per bullet. why would you ever use it when you could use the infinitely better Gatling Gun? the other weapons are fine, though: the knife is a fallback weapon, the chainsaw is a good close range weapon for ammo convervation, the revolvers have infinite ammo and infinite range, the shotguns are for single enemies to save ammo for the bigger guns, the gatling gun is very fucking powerful and strangely perfectly accurate, rockets make stuff go boom, the grenade does the same thing, but is faster and twice as powerful, the flamethrower is the best group killer, the plasma gun is the second strongest weapon in the game, and the cannon rips through enemies whole at the cost of rare ammo.

Old Post 04-21-14 02:07 #
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Da Werecat
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Doomhuntress said:
why would you ever use it when you could use the infinitely better Gatling Gun?

It doesn't have a delay, which can be useful when dealing with certain enemies, at least in theory. I used to shoot toads with it.

Old Post 04-21-14 02:26 #
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Khorus
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What Belial said. I like Serious Sam.


Doomhuntress said:
the only problem i have with Serious Sam (only played TFE and TSE, for clarification) is that the Thompson is absolutely useless. it's slower than the Gatling Gun, AND it deals less damage per bullet. why would you ever use it when you could use the infinitely better Gatling Gun?


It's useful in the non-HD games against kamikazes because it has no wind-up time (you can use one bullet on a kamikaze in close range to put distance before the second) and marsh hoppers because the minigun puts out way too many bullets. It does the exact same damage as the minigun in the classic games, but the minigun does twice the damage in the HD version while halving the firing rate which makes using the Thompson a waste of ammo.

Old Post 04-21-14 02:41 #
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phi108
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I won't comment on most of the games, but in my mind the absolute WORST thing I see in recent shooters is the combo of iron sights+ a sprint button, it serves to slow down so much of the action.

With a thumbstick on gamepads at least, slow and fast speeds should be built into the stick! It's throwing a useless button action into the mix. And an iron-sights type of mechanic could also be tied to speed: if you are standing still or moving slowly, like a normal soldier in the real world, you would hold your gun more steady based on instinct and training, games should be able to animate this with the visual gun model, without needing an on/off action for it. Players should not be juggling 3 buttons+ movement stick to move and shoot with agility.

(I guess I'd make an exception for snipers, I'm not sure how to deal with scopes without a button for it)

Old Post 04-21-14 04:02 #
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Phobus
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DooM_RO said:
NOW I think that everything in Doom 3 was Doom.

Strange, I never noticed open, non-linear map layouts, large open rooms or a movement speed that made dodging shots out in the open the best approach. I played a game where even the rooms felt like hallways, you walked at a realistic pace and had limited sprint like a certain game series that was yet to hit it big (when not in hell) and was often more about taking cover or hoping you'd kill something before it got to you. I don't see how that focus on story and setting is any less missing the point than a focus on gun play. I like Doom 3, but it doesn't evoke the same feelings as Doom does by any stretch of the imagination.

Old Post 04-21-14 08:32 #
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quakke
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Doominator2 said:
Hey quakke, can you please explain why the hell you think Crysis is a cod clone? Have you played Crysis? (or most of the games you listed anyways) Why is Far Cry 3 not a cod clone,(not saying it is but its more dumbed down than crysis IMO) thats another answer I want answered.


Quoting a post i made earlier in the thread.

"Reason why Crysis 1 is almost not CoD-clone, is because it is quite a thing. Crysis 1 does not require you to use aimdownsights, you can truly move fast in Crysis 1 due to "Maximum Speed" actually being fast, due to cloak working etc.. Crysis 2 and 3 have "Maximum speed" replaced with regular CoD-sprint. A real life human run speed. Crysis 1 can be played in quite different ways due to it having some originality. I think i may have to actually remove Crysis 1 (2007) from that list because of the reasons i just gave. But that explains it again. Crysis 1 was also barely released before this CoD fad so naturally it has potential to be original since it wasn't inspired by CoD gameplay.

Far Cry 2 and 3 to me are not CoD-clones because they do have semi-regenerating health. You have health segments and if you lose one, only way to restore it is to use a health syringe. That changes the fundamental gameplay significantly. If you have health that you can maanually apply whenever you want (provided that you have health to use), you can go Rambo due to you taking health when you're at critical (without having to go hide behind cover). Halo 2 is another example. Halo 2 has full healthregen, BUT Halo has emphassis on movement and thus enemies do not consist of hitscan weapons, you may actually dodge the bullets and thus play it completely differently from CoD. Rainbow Six Vegas is last example. Eventhough it does have full healthregen, the basic traditional "plan your tactics" gameplay is still the main thing. Yes you do hide behind cover in it, but you already did so in Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield (2003) which had no health regen, so healthregen didn't really change the fundamental gameplay of Rainbow Six."

Old Post 04-21-14 08:41 #
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DooM_RO
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Phobus said:

Strange, I never noticed open, non-linear map layouts, large open rooms or a movement speed that made dodging shots out in the open the best approach. I played a game where even the rooms felt like hallways, you walked at a realistic pace and had limited sprint like a certain game series that was yet to hit it big (when not in hell) and was often more about taking cover or hoping you'd kill something before it got to you. I don't see how that focus on story and setting is any less missing the point than a focus on gun play. I like Doom 3, but it doesn't evoke the same feelings as Doom does by any stretch of the imagination.



I never said it evoked the SAME feelings. Like I said, Doom is a combination of action, horror, atmosphere and exploration. If you take any of these out of a sequel it still feels familiar but not the same. Now most people don't think this way when they play Doom 3 so they become confused why something is missing which in turn makes them think it sucks.

Doom had lots of hallways with secret passageways similar to Doom 3, like E1M5 which is one of the more cramped levels of Doom. The problem in Doom 3 is that the majority of the levels were only cramped. They took one aspect of Doom, worked very hard on it but the others were on the backseat but that doesn't mean that those hallways were not constructed in a way similar to Doom. Also, rooms being large is not mandatory for exploration. Making Doom 4 just with big, open rooms would be the same mistake as making the vast majority of the rooms in Doom 3 cramped. There needs to be variety and balance which is what not only Doom 3 lacked but also Serious Sam, which is why it doesn't make a good Doom substitute. Doom had levels that were more cramped and Doom 3-like (E1M5) very open levels like E3M6, culminating with a combination of various aesthetic, layout and gameplay styles found in E2M7 which I think is the very best map in Doom. Like I said before, Doom is not complete without all of the aforementioned traits. It needs to have it all and it needs to be balanced in the right way.

Old Post 04-21-14 09:57 #
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Belial
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Da Werecat said:
It doesn't have a delay, which can be useful when dealing with certain enemies, at least in theory. I used to shoot toads with it.

Yeah, it's useful against weak and fast enemies, especially when they come at you from all sides. The minigun's spin-up can be lethal in such cases and firing it constantly wastes ammo very fast.

Besides, TSE HD is broken beyond repair, people who want to experience it properly should play the original.

Last edited by Belial on 04-21-14 at 11:45

Old Post 04-21-14 11:38 #
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doomgargoyle
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Da Werecat said:
You probably won't believe me, but some people still hate Doom for destroying an aura of intelligence around PC games. Food for thought.


Before Doom 2D point and click adventures were the big thing. Games in general were slow, you had to pause, plan your strategy, and such. After Doom games became all twitch fests. I like Doom, but that was the case with it.

Old Post 04-21-14 17:28 #
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Clonehunter
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Oh, I dunno. I felt Doom had strategy in many cases, and areas where you had to stop and think about how you were going to proceed. For example, on Dis, simply jumping into the middle of things with a Rocket Launcher will most likely get you squenched from four different directions. It's not a lot of thought, but generally I've found that it's best to get an infighting chain going on, running around the edge, and let the monsters do the work. I'm sure there's better examples, but Doom can have strategy. ;)

Old Post 04-21-14 19:01 #
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Da Werecat
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Whether Doom has strategy or not heavily depends of what kind of bias you have. It's like that with many things, really.

Old Post 04-21-14 19:25 #
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MajorRawne
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Halo 4 is nothing like COD. Yeah it's an FPS with each level being made up of a series of pretty corridors, and you can regenerate, but it's an interplanetary sci-fi where you play a genetically enhanced super-warrior with an AI sidekick, fighting against an alien species never encountered before. The look and feel are totally different to COD.

It would be interesting for someone to put a COD map alongside an original Doom or Doom 2 map, to see how things have changed.

Old Post 04-21-14 20:59 #
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mrthejoshmon
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MajorRawne said:
Halo 4 is nothing like COD.
Compared to the older Halo games, it is a lot more like CoD but not an actual clone of it.

Old Post 04-21-14 21:32 #
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