Mancubus
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > The sad tale of Duke Nukem Forever
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 18:02. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
DooM_RO
Senior Member


Posts: 1585
Registered: 02-11


A developer who worked on the infamous Duke Nukem Forever finally speaks out and tells us why the game sucked...This is so very sad.

http://forums.duke4.net/topic/6449-...yee-speaks-out/

Old Post 05-11-14 18:49 #
DooM_RO is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Waffenak
Forum Regular


Posts: 955
Registered: 10-09


Fascinating but sad story to read

Old Post 05-11-14 19:43 #
Waffenak is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
geo
Forum Staple


Posts: 3630
Registered: 10-05


I played it recently to completion. I owned it for $5 on PS3 and Steam for maybe years. On both platforms, I could never get past the first 2 hours. They were just awful. They were everything BUT FPSing. Driving, first person platforming, puzzle solving, walking around a museum about how awesome you are, melee combat, minigames, turret sections and the only real FPSing seemed to be stick you in a room and have enemies drop in. Everything BUT actual FPS. I played the first 2 hours of gameplay a few times on both platforms saying... this is the time I'll beat Duke Forever.

Then after the first 2 hours into the game it suddenly got a lot better. Like Half Life 2 with a Doom flavor. Plus the fact that Duke is going to a damn where there is a tower and a mysterious beam of light coming out of the top didn't help me think wow this isn't Half Life 2 at all. After those 2 hours the game mainly sticks to being a FPS and offers diversion here and there instead of diversion first. Kind of like a rollercoaster, gotta sit in line for 2 hours before you ride the damn thing only those 2 hours are just painfully unfun.

The enemies are surprisingly smart, they will strafe and flank you. The standard soldier enemies will teleport around to flank you. The pig cops will charge if they have no weapon, they'll throw grenades at you if you're hiding. There is also a wide variety of enemies.

Its the first 2 hours that killed that game. I know that now. The water levels toward the end were a bitch to get through too. You really needed to love Duke to get through that. Some of the ragdolls were laugh out loud. Like one that jiggled up a wall. The weapons didn't feel good at all to shoot. I could have been pointing and clicking an icon for all of the effect it had on any enemy.

Sure there was probably behind the scenes BS too like 10 year dev cycle, using multiple engines and so on when they just should have shit out a product.

When you complete the game you also unlock the Duke timeline that shows you 10 years of Duke Forever's dev cycle.

Plus the fact that old school shooting fans want to stay in that old school of Doom, Quake and Duke. Old Duke 3D is still MUCH better.

Last edited by geo on 05-11-14 at 21:26

Old Post 05-11-14 21:06 #
geo is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
StevieCybernetik
Member


Posts: 358
Registered: 10-09


This story isn't too surprising sadly enough. The entire industry is just about sales now, and clone stamping games. This was pretty upsetting to read nonetheless.

Old Post 05-12-14 02:33 #
StevieCybernetik is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Nomad
Not dumb enough to get a custom title


Posts: 2761
Registered: 04-04


I gave up in the weird living catacombs after escaping from the casino or whatever. Kept running out of ammo. Wasn't any fun. I actually had pre-ordered it, but mostly for the stuff that came with it. I already anticipated it being crappy so I wasn't really disappointed.

Old Post 05-12-14 03:03 #
Nomad is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
mrthejoshmon
Senior Member


Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-12


I completed DNF 2 times (Playing it on normal does not unlock the achievement for easy) and I can say it was not worth it.

The only "enjoyable" map would have to be... Fuck, I didn't enjoy any of the god damn maps!

They all consisted of either piss poor driving sequences (Where tapping an enemy at about 2MPH would dismember all their limbs and punt them about 50 yards in a random direction but plowing into a movable object at 100MPH would spell imminent death of all things known to physics), terrible gimmicks like underwater shit or being shrunk throughout the map (which is boring as hell), awful boss fights involving rinse and repeat combat and a healthy mix of QTE molestation (And many times multiple QTEs), unarmed combat straight out of a terrible Wii sports title, point and click shooting, turret sections and even meaningless fetch quests involving dildos and fucking popcorn.

You can just tell they wanted to get this abomination out the door so they can pretend it never happened and cash in the paychecks and I for one don't blame them for that.

Old Post 05-12-14 03:52 #
mrthejoshmon is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
yukib1t
Will DDR for food


Posts: 2547
Registered: 06-02


Very interesting article. Obviously DNF sucked, but after reading this, I think he's saying more than just why it was such a bad game. I'm seeing three things:

1. DNF sucked, and here's why
2. Here's an example of how working in the game industry can suck tapir balls
3. A more overarching allegory-type thing where over working yourself can take a lot away from your life without you realizing it.

This last bit of the article really hit home for me personally, and also sort of explains #3:


From the article:
Nothing is worth so many years spent making a basically a elaborate toy for someone's amusement that is taking the toll from Your personal life. I regret it didn't come to me any sooner - the joy of female companionship, the smile of a child, look of a beautiful blue summer sky, walk in the park. All those simple things I missed when thinking only about work. Right now I am far away from the business and hope to keep it this way. I hope that people who are so obsessed with video games both making and playing them in general could just leave them for a moment and think. You are not winning anything and basically just wasting your time achieving nothing instead of doing some meaningful things in the real world.

Old Post 05-12-14 04:17 #
yukib1t is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
geo
Forum Staple


Posts: 3630
Registered: 10-05


Looks like the first problem was having a nice guy boss that didn't get it out the door in 6 years. Then thinking we must release on consoles. Only to say our game is not console friendly and must be redone.

Why not release on PC and then do a console specific unique version? Quake 2 and Doom did that for N64. Basically make money to make more money? The consoles will love it. Look at our X-Box exclusive Duke Nukem X! Then PS3 will brag about look at our exclusive Duke Nukem vs the 80s!

Also the fact this dev spent months making the ego system and placing ego boosters makes me wonder about his fluency of being a game dev. I wouldn't think that stuff would take months let alone the fact he's working 80 hour weeks. As someone that has worked 72 hour work weeks, I can only hope that's embellishment.

Old Post 05-12-14 04:19 #
geo is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
DooM_RO
Senior Member


Posts: 1585
Registered: 02-11



geo said:
Looks like the first problem was having a nice guy boss that didn't get it out the door in 6 years. Then thinking we must release on consoles. Only to say our game is not console friendly and must be redone.




And that is the saddest part.

Also this.


DooM_RO said:
Holy shit...I'm gonna cry http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Em...-RVW4012058.htm

Doom Nukem Forever...

Old Post 05-12-14 04:31 #
DooM_RO is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
geo
Forum Staple


Posts: 3630
Registered: 10-05



DooM_RO said:


And that is the saddest part.

Also this.




I think the saddest part is game dev studios for FPS going broke or selling their company because they spend more than 2 years making a game that will always get a review of 'Half Life 2 is the greatest! 6 out of 10.'

Heck it takes $0 to not sell a game >> http://steamcharts.com/app/295770#All
vs Duke Forever >> http://steamcharts.com/app/57900#All
vs Shadow Warrior that took 2 years with 65 people >> http://steamcharts.com/app/233130#All

2 years. Nothing should take more than 2 years for a team to make unless it is GTA, Elder Scrolls or Fallout.

Old Post 05-12-14 04:53 #
geo is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phobus
Forum Staple


Posts: 2880
Registered: 10-06



yukib1t said:
This last bit of the article really hit home for me personally, and also sort of explains #3
Whilst I'd fully agree with him that games are a waste of time, there isn't always a lot better we could be doing with it. I mean, most people on the planet have meaningless jobs that take up more of their average week than anything other than sleep does. That's modern society for you - we can live longer then ever and barely actually *live* a day of it. Just grind through pointless crap for money to fund our escapism.

As for DNF - I bought it with high hopes back on release day and didn't think it was the worst game I'd ever played, although Duke 3D is much more entertaining and less frustrating on each comparable difficulty as well. I beat it once on hard and kind of want to "get my money's worth" and best it on the unlocked top difficulty, but I'm sure it'll just raise my blood pressure for no addition to the experience. The worst part is the epic loading times on the XBox360, for me. Nothing should take that long to load...

Old Post 05-12-14 07:25 #
Phobus is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
doomgargoyle
Banned


Posts: 498
Registered: 12-13


First off, DNF is not a tale of game development gone wrong, it's a tale of stupidity gone right. As for games being a waste of time, well, there's an entire can of worms there, movies, music, books they're all a waste to time too if games are. Art in general is a waste of time then too. They can be, some of it certainly is, but another some of it it's an actual and valid expression of the soul, and can help people grow and become nurtured by it. George Broussard's 10+ year obsession of making the best duke game was a waste of time.

Old Post 05-12-14 08:19 #
doomgargoyle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
MajorRawne
Senior Member


Posts: 1342
Registered: 04-10


I always saw Duke Nukem as a Doom wannabe that introduced complexity and mild humour, but forgot about the gameplay. I might be in the minority on that one, but it tried so hard to beat Doom that it just came across as a kind of parody. The enemies were extremely annoying and took too many hits.

Lest this seem like trolling, it does have its merits, it just wasn't a step up from Doom in the way it was supposed to be.

Old Post 05-12-14 09:59 #
MajorRawne is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
yukib1t
Will DDR for food


Posts: 2547
Registered: 06-02



Phobus said:
Whilst I'd fully agree with him that games are a waste of time, there isn't always a lot better we could be doing with it. I mean, most people on the planet have meaningless jobs that take up more of their average week than anything other than sleep does. That's modern society for you - we can live longer then ever and barely actually *live* a day of it. Just grind through pointless crap for money to fund our escapism.
I didn't really mean video games are a waste of time. Rather, just like what you said, we barely "live" a day in our lives. I guess what I'm getting at, and what I'm seeing in the blog post, is that we're at a point where there's so much filler that we forget to look at things that can touch us in more fulfilling ways.

But, I'm also pretty cynical these days :)

Old Post 05-12-14 10:30 #
yukib1t is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phobus
Forum Staple


Posts: 2880
Registered: 10-06



yukib1t said:
I guess what I'm getting at, and what I'm seeing in the blog post, is that we're at a point where there's so much filler that we forget to look at things that can touch us in more fulfilling ways.

Ahhh... Yeah, I can see that.

Evidently my glass is very half-empty! Then again, I viewed my weekend as better than my working week because I enjoyed wasting those two days in front of a screen, rather than the 37 hours I'll be wasting in front of a screen Monday-Friday. Actual fulfilment is a rare and fleeting idea to me, and I imagine a lot of other people have the same problem of not even finding the simple pleasures in life.

Old Post 05-12-14 11:42 #
Phobus is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 8907
Registered: 06-06



geo said:
let alone the fact he's working 80 hour weeks.
How does one cope with that? When do you eat? You already need to sleep and commute. It's ridiculous that the pay is also cheap. Why not just keep you locked in the building with minimal sleep and eat accomodations, you'd work just as much.

I suppose they're not working from home doing this (that would make it more manageable)? Because OMG trade secrets.

__________________
Automatic Wolfenstein - Version 1.0 - also on Android

Old Post 05-12-14 22:53 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
geo
Forum Staple


Posts: 3630
Registered: 10-05



printz said:
How does one cope with that? When do you eat? You already need to sleep and commute. It's ridiculous that the pay is also cheap. Why not just keep you locked in the building with minimal sleep and eat accomodations, you'd work just as much.

I suppose they're not working from home doing this (that would make it more manageable)? Because OMG trade secrets.



I know from personal experience... eat and sleep at the place you work. Really. In fact I think they have pics of their original dev studio in the Extras of Duke Forever and its really just someone's house.

But again I think 80 hours is embellishment. I've done 72 hour work weeks and I started legitimately keeping track of it all.

Old Post 05-12-14 23:05 #
geo is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
40oz
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 7032
Registered: 08-07


A little element of truth in that. Level design takes a lot of commitment, and when you have a personal life, designing for a game gets in the way when you have a real life future to design around you.

there was poor management involved too, but i can relate to some of the things he's saying and it really put a damper on my backlog of doom maps i wanted to make, but i don't have time to spare anymore. There are very fragile and time sensitive circumstances in my life that the charity of creating amusement for myself and strangers in a sheltered virtual reality just doesn't really fit in anymore.

Old Post 05-13-14 02:20 #
40oz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
geo
Forum Staple


Posts: 3630
Registered: 10-05



40oz said:
A little element of truth in that. Level design takes a lot of commitment, and when you have a personal life, designing for a game gets in the way when you have a real life future to design around you.

there was poor management involved too, but i can relate to some of the things he's saying and it really put a damper on my backlog of doom maps i wanted to make, but i don't have time to spare anymore. There are very fragile and time sensitive circumstances in my life that the charity of creating amusement for myself and strangers in a sheltered virtual reality just doesn't really fit in anymore.



Yeah, game design is always something that I've thought start early, because if you don't go pro then you'll be a 45 year old making stuff for free. Women hate when you do stuff for free.

But really we all need hobbies. Your map making is someone else's knitting. While some might say at least you have something to wear forever, another person might say you entertained people with your hobby. Its a tossup.

Old Post 05-14-14 00:00 #
geo is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Astral-Doomer
Newbie


Posts: 3
Registered: 03-12


EDIT: Sorry for being off-topic, I got a bit carried away. That is all. *Jumps into Kuribo's Shoe and leaps out of thread again*. :)

Last edited by Astral-Doomer on 05-16-14 at 03:26

Old Post 05-14-14 04:13 #
Astral-Doomer is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
TheCupboard
Loser


Posts: 983
Registered: 02-06


Astral-Doomer, someone should be able to tell you this freely and I'm sorry that it has to be me, but you basically missed the point of the article or you actually created your own conclusions in conflict with what the author intended.

Old Post 05-14-14 05:10 #
TheCupboard is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Doomkid
Senior Member


Posts: 1679
Registered: 06-08


Where does the whole "Oh no, video games serve no purpose, they should all be washed away forever off planet earth!" bit even fit in at all? That statement is 110% irrelevant to the article.. Which is a pretty sad tale, by the way. I'd add more, but everyone else in the thread has pretty much summed up the how's and why's of this unfortunate bomb.

Old Post 05-14-14 07:34 #
Doomkid is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Darch
Member


Posts: 318
Registered: 11-11



Doomkid92 said:
Where does the whole "Oh no, video games serve no purpose, they should all be washed away forever off planet earth!" bit even fit in at all? That statement is 110% irrelevant to the article.. Which is a pretty sad tale, by the way.

It's actually at the very end:


I hope that people who are so obsessed with video games both making and playing them in general could just leave them for a moment and think. You are not winning anything and basically just wasting your time achieving nothing instead of doing some meaningful things in the real world. It is a pity I understood this so late in my life.

Which is the part I strongly disagree, as it can be applied to any hobby and most jobs.

Old Post 05-14-14 08:18 #
Darch is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phml
Forum Staple


Posts: 3460
Registered: 06-09


There's a giant leap to make between both statements. For anyone so touchy with their passion for video games they go from one to the other, and angrily react to one largely irrelevant snippet in an entire article (if you can't put this in perspective of a guy who spent years to work on a doomed project, you do need some perspective) his advice is sound; it's time to take a step back and have a hard look at your life.

Addiction to anything is indeed bad. That there are all kinds of bad addictions doesn't make addiction to video games any better.

Old Post 05-14-14 09:31 #
Phml is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Darch
Member


Posts: 318
Registered: 11-11



Phml said:
There's a giant leap to make between both statements.

Of course there is. But it's not like he took this idea out of nowhere, either.

Old Post 05-14-14 10:10 #
Darch is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Doomkid
Senior Member


Posts: 1679
Registered: 06-08


Having a passion for video games is not a "waste of time", no more so than any other hobby. I'm not contributing any more to the world when I sit in my room and play drums than when I sit in my room slaving over Doom Builder, they're both just tiny bits of art, which gives the world 'color', as it were.

I agree about addiction being bad in any form, though. If someone enjoys their hobby, but it does not dominate their life/impinge on their family, friends or their health, it is not "meaningless" as the article says. I get how he could think that after what he went through, though. He just needs to remember, we didn't all sit there, spinelessly and quietly, during the development of a bomb. Obviously this is just conjecture, but I don't think I would have just sat there taking it. I would have been one of the people who left when the writing was on the wall.

Old Post 05-15-14 03:21 #
Doomkid is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jaxxoon R
Forum Regular


Posts: 700
Registered: 03-14


From the sound of that Id employee, it sounds like Doom 4 might be going down the same path a Duke...

Is it too late to fill the gaps with some Keen?

Old Post 05-15-14 14:28 #
Jaxxoon R is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
geo
Forum Staple


Posts: 3630
Registered: 10-05



Jaxxoon R said:
From the sound of that Id employee, it sounds like Doom 4 might be going down the same path a Duke...

Is it too late to fill the gaps with some Keen?



Yeah I'm pretty sure that Doom 4 taking 10 years is a sure sign it'll be awful. If not awful it just won't sell that many copies, unless its an open world fuck around game where you do what you want. Duke Forever sold around 2 million.

Doom 3 BFG sold 1 million. Looks like Doom 3 sold 2 million and the expansion sold 1 million. >> http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?nam...s=0&results=200

Even if Doom 4 hasn't been in the works for 10 years, its been 'restarted.' Like Duke Forever had to cut out its open levels for more corridor levels with 0 exploration and secrets.

If Batman Arkham City, GTA, Infamous and Elder Scrolls can have open levels on X-Box 360... why couldn't the original Duke Forever game. Oh well.

Old Post 05-15-14 14:55 #
geo is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Satyr000
Member


Posts: 516
Registered: 10-08


I just wish they would stop fucking around and release the DNF source code and the modding tools. DNF did have it's moments and the potential for a great game is there. I'm sure the Duke community could do great things with DNF, if they where simply given the tools to do so. Also, mod's sell video games.


Jaxxoon R said:
From the sound of that Id employee, it sounds like Doom 4 might be going down the same path a Duke...



That is the entire reason Doom 4 has taken such a long time to come out. Midway through development, Doom 4 was scrapped and Id started over. More or less because Doom 4 was such a stripped down "modern fps" it was jokingly being called Call Of Doom.

Old Post 05-15-14 17:51 #
Satyr000 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
DooM_RO
Senior Member


Posts: 1585
Registered: 02-11


Not just that but Carmack also said that while everyone knows what Doom is about, it is a very difficult to articulate that feeling. I kinda see what he's talking about. Stuff like Brutal Doom and Serious Sam have modified the perception of Doom, mainly that Doom is just about mindless slaughter and not much else, when in reality Doom is a combination of Shooting, Exploring and Atmosphere, it needs ALL of it. A mindless Serious Sam clone sounds good in theory (to some) but it would take away all the other stuff that makes Doom interesting, stuff whose importance would only be noticed if it's not there. Doom is a lot more nuanced than a lot of people give it credit. I keep seeing comments on the internet about how monster count is the epitome of the Doom experience and while I would certainly like more monsters than in Doom 3 I want monsters to also attack and spawn in interesting and refreshing ways.

So yeah, I understand what Carmack is trying to say.

Old Post 05-15-14 18:00 #
DooM_RO is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 18:02. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > The sad tale of Duke Nukem Forever

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.