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Danarchy
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I know this is an old issue (and an old article), but damn. Its like the most grossly wrong and horribly innacurate thing I've ever read since that 'You're Going To Hell' website.

This is what I am talking about, and this is probably the one part that was so laughably false:

"Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were not products of the "gun culture"; they were the twisted products of the nihilist-hedonist-narcissist death culture that has been foisted on our society by the liberal soul mates of Rosie O’Donnell and the Clintons. It was not the John Wayne-Elliot Ness-Roy Rogers gun culture or "right-wing, religious bigotry" that produced the cold-blooded killers who calmly strolled through the halls of Columbine High joking, laughing, and cackling as they methodically slaughtered their fellow students, indifferent to their pleas and screams. Like teen murderers Luke Woodham of Pearl, Mississippi; Michael Carneal of Paduka, Kentucky; Kip Kinkle of Springfield, Oregon; Andrew Wurst of Edinboro, Pennsylvania; and Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden of Jonesboro, Arkansas, Harris and Klebold also were not "natural born killers." These boys were transformed into homicidal sociopaths by a combination of deadly factors whose causative contributions may be difficult precisely to quantify, but which are easily recognized as common denominators in these cases.

The young killers were immersed in a grotesque youth subculture that has been promoted, nurtured, praised, and defended by the self-anointed arbiters of today’s decadent fashion and culture. They are the products of the self-indulgent, pagan gospel of "sex, drugs, and rock ’n’ roll." Harris and Klebold were devotees of the hideous, Satanic, "Goth rocker" Marilyn Manson and the gruesome German bands Rammstein and KMFDM. Marilyn Manson (a stage pseudonym meant to pay homage to Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson), an androgynous creature who works at being as repulsive as possible (and succeeds wildly!), is a self-proclaimed, ordained "minister" in the Church of Satan. His "music" revels in nihilistic rebellion, rage, alienation, death, and despair. His "Anti-Christ Superstar" rock tour was banned in some cities. According to this "star" entertainer, "America needs that anti-Christ figure, that anti-hero to save these kids from the oppression of right wing morality." Tell that to the kids who watched their classmates murdered by Manson’s anti-hero acolytes Harris and Klebold.

According to Satanic minister Marilyn Manson, "Satanism was never about worshiping the devil. It’s about man being his own god on earth. You do not worship anything except yourself." Eric Harris apparently took that message to heart, as reflected in this "philosophy" statement he wrote for his web site: "My belief is that if I say something, it goes. I am the law. If you don’t like it, you die. If I don’t like you or I don’t like what you want me to do, you die." Harris also posted the ultra-violent, obscene lyrics of KMFDM on his web site. Like Marilyn Manson, the group’s lead vocalist, En Esch, a seven-foot-tall transvestite, specializes in the extreme and the bizarre. One of the group’s songs, "Piggybank," features these lyrics: "If I had a shotgun, I’d blow myself to hell."

In addition to these toxic influences, friends of Klebold and Harris have reported that the young men were obsessed with the ultra-violent video games Doom and Quake. According to some reports, they also played Postal, a video game in which the "winner" caps the fun by committing suicide. On top of which, the demented duo also are reported to have been heavily influenced by the murderous mayhem glorified in such slick Hollywood offerings as The Basketball Diaries, Natural Born Killers, and The Matrix. Adding to this lethal mix was the drug Luvox, an antidepressant similar to Prozac, which was used by Eric Harris. We do not have any information on other drugs that may have been used by Harris and/or Klebold, but they have played a role in some of the other school murder sprees mentioned above."

Sorry for the spamming, but seriously this stupid ass article just pisses me off.

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Old Post 05-21-02 03:20 #
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fodders
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C'mon, quoting an article dated June 7, 1999 is a bit naff, go find something new

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Old Post 05-21-02 03:38 #
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IMJack
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fodders said:
C'mon, quoting an article dated June 7, 1999 is a bit naff, go find something new
Hey, a little venting is good for the soul.

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Old Post 05-21-02 03:44 #
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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!


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IMJack said:
Hey, a little venting is good for the soul.

Yeah, that was my primary objective. But I have also found this since, an even more intriguing, and far better written article.

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Old Post 05-21-02 04:41 #
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fodders
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No 12 months old is still too old, this topic has been beaten to death, on every Doom page since the event happened, well since someone tied it to Doom, there must be 27,306,006 opinions floating over the net, it's too stale and nondescript, but hey, that's just me

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-21-02 04:51 #
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Danarchy
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I never said that the second article was new material, I just said its very interesting (though kind of wordy, and it takes a while to wind up). Plus, the whole Columbine debacle has been an interest to me since it happened.

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Old Post 05-21-02 04:54 #
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Lüt
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Well I do agree that the music industry would be much better off without the likes of Marilyn Manson involved in it. I would mind him and everything he's done mysteriously disappearing from the face of the earth.

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Old Post 05-21-02 05:46 #
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fodders
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Lüt said:
I would mind him and everything he's done mysteriously disappearing from the face of the earth.
Didn't have you down as a Manson fan L(daft U)T :)[edit]and no using your super admin powers to wipe all evidence of the above from the planet[/edit]

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-21-02 18:52 #
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Kid Airbag
Not really a kid. Not really an airbag. WHAT THE HELL IS IT?!? Who's asking? Are you French? An airbag is a safety device in a car that inflates during a collision and blocks you from smashing your head into the dashboard or steering wheel!


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the_Danarchist said:
Andrew Wurst of Edinboro, Pennsylvania;
Whoa, someone killed someone at Edinboro? I play a soccer tournament there every year, and didn't even know about it, wow :/

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Old Post 05-21-02 20:33 #
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Fredrik


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Eric Harris suck

Old Post 05-22-02 12:10 #
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Black
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Then you Lut, are a fool.

Black

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Old Post 05-22-02 17:26 #
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Lüt
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Black said:
Then you Lut, are a fool.
No, just somebody with a bit of taste.

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Old Post 05-22-02 17:57 #
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Black
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Well...Besides the fact that Marilyn Manson had nothing to do with Columbine, but yeah, it's all his fault if Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold decide to blow away a bunch of kids right? THEN after Columbine he apologizes sincerely for something that wasn't even necessarily his fault and makes a CD (Holy Wood) in spite of what happened. Then after awhile they found out that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold didn't even own a Manson CD or even like his music! Oh... How ironic this world is. So basically Lut, you're saying since Doom is just a little bit violent it should just disappear off the face of the earth because you know, no one would miss it right?

However I respect your opinion. I think differently but that's OK. I'm sorry if that seemed like a bash to you Lut. I simply called you a fool for not thinking about what you were saying. As far as I'm concerned video games, music and movies cannot be blamed for aggression, violence or whatever because they have warnings to (naturally) warn people that what they hear or see may not be suitable for all audiences. Not to mention most people who find scapegoats in these things usually don't know anything about them but hey our world sucks why should people's way of thinking be any different?

Black

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Old Post 05-22-02 23:25 #
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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!


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Black, Lüt wasn't saying he believes Manson responsible for the violence, he was merely stating his dislike for Manson musicaly, and I'd have to agree. I once counted myself a fan of Manson, but then I discovered that most of my favorite Manson songs were actualy pretty much Trent Reznor's creations. All in all, Brian Warner is just a frad posing off of Gary Numan, Alice Cooper, and David Bowie. He's not the worst musician ever, but he is far from the best.

INTERESTING NOTE: As I was writing this, my favorite Manson song just popped on in WinAmp, making me feel like a hypocrite. :P

As far as my stance on the relationship between art and violence goes, I believe that violent music and such is not the catalyst of what's wrong in this world, but rather the result.

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Old Post 05-23-02 01:30 #
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Lizardcommando
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the_Danarchist said:
I never said that the second article was new material, I just said its very interesting (though kind of wordy, and it takes a while to wind up). Plus, the whole Columbine debacle has been an interest to me since it happened.


Yeah, this topic is interesting to me too. The only thing I get sick of hearing is that people think it's Doom's fault, or Marilyn Manson's fault, or anything related. For the last time, these are what made the two and along with the other school shooters do the shootings in the first place:

BULLIES, DEPRESSION, AND ALL THE SHITTY TEEN POP CULTURE CRAP THAT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT THAN YOU!!!

Old Post 05-23-02 01:56 #
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Black
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I respect that. It seems like (especially at this point in time) that most things are nothing but copies of something else. I mean this is a world where teachers can actually 'grade' your artwork and your way of thinking. That is extremely sad in my opinion. I can draw something and have a big meaning behind it with lot of symbolism and get like a 'C' or 'D' and then some other kid could draw this nice little still-life of a flower or something and earn an 'A'. I don't know. I'm just an opinionated person I suppose. If I've offended anyone I'm sorry. I'm living in a lie so to speak.

Black

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Old Post 05-23-02 03:56 #
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Naked Snake
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Black seems to be defending Mary Manson...oh, look at his sig...


I'm glad you're dead...


Heh

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Old Post 05-23-02 04:36 #
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Liam
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Marilyn Manson (the band, not the retard with a 24/7 case of laryngitis [yes that's probably spelled wrong fuck you too]) could probably do some interesting stuff if they'd kick Warner and go do their own thing.

Old Post 05-23-02 06:31 #
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IMJack
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Nothing to see here. Move along. :P

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Last edited by IMJack on 05-23-02 at 07:00

Old Post 05-23-02 06:42 #
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Liam
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IMJack said:
fnord

>_<

Warner is Marilyn Manson's real name AFAIK.

Old Post 05-23-02 06:45 #
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Lüt
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Black said:
So basically Lut, you're saying since Doom is just a little bit violent it should just disappear off the face of the earth because you know, no one would miss it right?
If Doom was 300 maps with a maximum of 4 sectors consisting of computers sitting in a pile of snakes crawling around in nukage which was sitting in a giant urinal and, basically, the computer-game equivalent to a bunch of kiddie scribbling, then yes.

Anyway, I said the Manson comment because he's a horrible musician and godawful singer, not because of anything he (tries to) sing about. If him and his crew had a bit of talent and he took JUST ONE singing lesson before making an album, I might think a little differently. I base comments of him on his performance alone, which is a nightmare in itself, although I do think Antichrist Superstar and a few songs from Mechanical Animals had great potential, too bad they couldn't have been done by experienced musicians. Oh well it's not that bad after experience The Fragile >_<

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Old Post 05-23-02 10:31 #
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Black
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???

So what you're saying is if Marilyn Manson sings about something he believes in but because he doesn't have a good voice, he sucks? You're a moron. Yeah so Jimi Hendrix was a bad musician right? He even thought his voice sucked but he sang anyway.

And what the hell do you know about musical talent? Madonna Wayne Gacy has been elected keyboardist of the year three or four times. Despite the band has only been around for a little more than a decade that is pretty good. At least I think so. Twiggy Ramirez is an awesome guitarist. Granted he doesn't do a fucking guitar solo every track but that isn't what necessarily makes you good. Maybe the fact that he (for the most part) writes all of the guitar parts and bass guitar parts and then plays them both when recording a CD. And I've been to a Manson concert and I thought they were good. He is one of the most powerful live musicians that I've ever heard.

And here we go with NIN again. OK...tell me. Would you rather listen to someone sing about something with an OK voice or hear someone sing about nothing with a good voice? Apparently Trent Reznor is a good musician if practically every musician out there respects him. Yeah he is a horrible musician even though id software asked him to make the tracks for Quake II. Hmm...

And about that entire Doom disappear off the face of the earth thing... I was being sarcastic so your comment wasn't really needed.

One thing, I know you're a musician Lut, why don't you direct me somewhere where I can listen to a song you made. Let me be the judge.

bigbadgansta... I don't know where the hell you got that from but if you really need to know, the "I'm glad you're dead..." thing came from Tim Burton's Batman. You know the Batman movie that had Jack Nickolson playing the Joker in it? So bah on you.

???

In and out with the same idea,
"Why can people be so friggin' stupid?"

Black

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Last edited by Black on 05-24-02 at 00:37

Old Post 05-23-02 21:36 #
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Black
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I Hate Idiots

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Old Post 05-23-02 21:38 #
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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!


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Black said:
One thing, I know you're a musician Lut, why don't you direct me somewhere where I can listen to a song you made. Let me be the judge.


ROFL

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Old Post 05-23-02 22:34 #
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Black
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OK...OK...Coming back to this message I realized I stepped out of my 'politically correct' boundries again. I'm sorry if I offended anyone blah blah blah. Didn't mean to call you a moron or stupid blah blah blah. Actually, whenever I say that kind of stuff I never intend for people to think I'm dissing them. I just do it jokingly. Sorry. I should probably be working on my Doom stuff anyway. Rather than yelling at people for what they believe.

Sorry,
Black

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Old Post 05-24-02 00:41 #
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Mary Manson's a pylon but it's not really his fault. He's just another part of the Pop Culture machine, as integral as Britney Spears. Can anyone remember back when music was actually about something?!?! Man, I remember listening to Ministry, KMFDM, and Ice-T back when i was a teenager. The music was actually about something, trying to convey a message. Now there is no message other than "look at me! Look at how beatiful, bad-assed, or fucked up I am! Woo hoo!"

Music is dead and musicians killed it.

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Old Post 05-24-02 00:45 #
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Black
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No, the music industry killed it. You could have the world's greatest message behind your music but all the music industry hears is cha-ching. Yeah, the world is going to hell.

I just did this huge debate on violence in the media for my Sociology class and I didn't even know what to say. I can speak my mind on a computer or in front of a few people but when I have to talk to an entire audience of like 50 people I'm useless. I hate that. I don't even know why I said any of that. Just felt like saying it I guess.

So how do we change it? How do we make things relevant again? If anyone has any ideas please say them. I had this one idea but it would never work.

Black

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Old Post 05-24-02 00:57 #
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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!


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Rellik said:
Man, I remember listening to Ministry, KMFDM, and Ice-T back when i was a teenager. The music was actually about something, trying to convey a message. Now there is no message other than "look at me! Look at how beatiful, bad-assed, or fucked up I am! Woo hoo!"


Heh...I still listen to Ministry and KMFDM.

Hell, just because I havn't done it in a while, heres my current top 10 musicians list:

1. ohGr
2. KMFDM
3. Tool
4. Pop Will Eat Itself
5. Das Ich
6. Pink Floyd
7. skinny puppy
8. Razed in Black
9. Nine Inch Nails

Okay, and last place is like a tie between Type O Negative, Genitorturers, Wumpscut, MDFMK, and Lunatic Calm.

I listen to too much crap.

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Old Post 05-24-02 02:54 #
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Lüt
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Black said:
So what you're saying is if Marilyn Manson sings about something he believes in but because he doesn't have a good voice, he sucks?
Exactly.

His job is to sing, and he sucks at it.

I didn't say his lyrics sucked, I said his voice sucked.

Although I don't think too highly of his recent (Mechanical Animals/Holy Wood) lyrics. I do have a soft spot for Antichrist Superstar though, too bad Reznor botched his recording as he always does :\

Black said:
Yeah so Jimi Hendrix was a bad musician right? He even thought his voice sucked but he sang anyway.
Dunno, never really listened to him.

Black said:
And what the hell do you know about musical talent?
Considerable amounts.

Black said:
Madonna Wayne Gacy has been elected keyboardist of the year three or four times.
By who, the same crew that gives awards to Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears for being the most original artists of the year?

Anyway if he's really a keyboard maestro, the music he plays sure does very little to show his talents.

Black said:
Twiggy Ramirez is an awesome guitarist. Granted he doesn't do a fucking guitar solo every track but that isn't what necessarily makes you good.
Again, if he's really really good, the music he plays doesn't give him a chance to show that off.

Black said:
Maybe the fact that he (for the most part) writes all of the guitar parts and bass guitar parts and then plays them both when recording a CD.
I know 3 people in real life who play their own guitar, bass and drum parts as well as do all the recordings themselves, one other guy can do all that as well as sing and play a bunch of orchestral instruments. Big deal.

Black said:
And I've been to a Manson concert and I thought they were good. He is one of the most powerful live musicians that I've ever heard.
Never seen them live, but the live tracks on Remix & Repent sounded pretty good.

Black said:
And here we go with NIN again. OK...tell me. Would you rather listen to someone sing about something with an OK voice or hear someone sing about nothing with a good voice?
I don't usually listen to music for it's lyrics, I listen to it for the music itself.

Lyrics are nice background on occasion, but I prefer instrumental stuff for the most part. Of course since like 2% of the songs I have are instrumentals, I'm stuck with the (usually annoying) singers in these bands.

Still, there's plenty of good singers who "sing about something", and with a good voice too.

Black said:
Apparently Trent Reznor is a good musician if practically every musician out there respects him. Yeah he is a horrible musician even though id software asked him to make the tracks for Quake II. Hmm...
Well of course he's not the worst out there, but it's like a mix of his lousy lyrics, mediocre songs and horrible recordings that do him in (as far as I'm concerned). No one individual aspect is truly horrible, they just work together to make you go "UGH".

Black said:
And about that entire Doom disappear off the face of the earth thing... I was being sarcastic so your comment wasn't really needed.
Heh, oh well.

Black said:
One thing, I know you're a musician Lut, why don't you direct me somewhere where I can listen to a song you made. Let me be the judge.
Hahahahahaha.

I don't hate you enough to make you listen to anything of mine just yet :P

Rellik said:
Can anyone remember back when music was actually about something?!?!
It still is, you just gotta look a little harder than your local Best Buy.

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Old Post 05-24-02 08:46 #
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Black
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Agreeable Lut. I'm glad that you didn't read what I wrote and say "What an asshole." At least I hope not. ;)

I respect what you had to say. I guess I never looked at it like that band sucks because the singer doesn't have a good voice but if you are into music more for the music than the message than that seems reasonable. I too, listen to a lot of instrumental music (more or less soundtracks) so I never really had the opportunity to agree with you there because I was too concerned with defending Mr. Manson.

I still however question your knowledge on musical talent. Right when you think you know it all is when a whole new door opens. I figure, if the music itself can toy with your emotions, (which sometimes happens like when watching a movie and the music adds a considerable atmosphere to the scene) you have good vocals singing about something very worthwhile and you have the right audience then you have a very good song. Hard to get them all but it I highly doubt it is impossible.

As far as Madonna Wayne Gacy goes, there is a lot more to modern day keyboards than just playing them as I'm sure you know. When I said keyboards that also includes mixing, sampling, drum machines, ect. I have met Madonna Wayne Gacy in real life and he told me it took him longer to save up for his keyboard than to master it. I'm sure he was judged by Trent Reznor and he is anything but naive when it comes to these types of things so take it as you will.

For Twiggy Ramirez, yes even people in my band do most of that so yeah, big deal. I guess it was more or less the work motive he has. He is (from what I know) very odd and when you have 'very odd' people doing a lot of drugs and making music I'm sure you get some pretty weird stuff. Granted what you hear is one thing, but what you don't hear is probably a totally different story. Who knows. He is good guitarist though. I have a question... Do you consider Dave Navarro to be a good guitarist? You may not like him or even know who he is but if you do, I have something related to this. But until then goodbye.

Black

I wrote a fucking novel...:)

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Old Post 05-24-02 21:29 #
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