Massacre in Paris - Islamic Extremists Kill At least 12

Thanks for the background, but please, don't speak for us when you say we're up America's arse. And if you were from here, you'd know it's arse and not ass.

Yeah man I hang around a bunch of British jerks and I've absorbed some of their language patterns but I don't say "arse."

Yeah but it's different than living in the same country and speaking as we do. You still don't get a hug btw :p

Mithran Denizen said:

That's neither a rational response, nor a particularly useful way to consider the ethics of the situation.

It very well may not be but that doesn't change my stance on the situation of how crimes should be punished.

myk said:

Why not join the Islamic State? They pretty much share your idea and that's how they have the conviction to murder people they feel are committing unnameable acts against their culture or people.

The difference being that my ideas of "unnameable acts" are actually unanimously considered to be horrible deeds (Rape, murder, slavery ECT) whilst the State of Islam's "horrendous crimes" mostly consist of showing too much ankle, drawing satirical cartoons, general criticism of their religion, going to school as a woman and being a Christian.

Is it the same mindset?

Not entirely, it is pretty much the same punishment (I guess) but for a different set of reasons (Or possibly just the same set of reasons with just a lot less of the mundane ones and outlandish ones in there).

mrthejoshmon said:

my ideas of "unnameable acts" are actually unanimously considered to be horrible deeds (Rape, murder, slavery ECT)

Unanimously my entire ass.

mrthejoshmon said:

The difference being that my ideas of "unnameable acts" are actually unanimously considered to be horrible deeds (Rape, murder, slavery ECT)

You actually touched a difficult ethics subject here.

There have been and there are still circumstances in human history and societies, where each and every one of the acts you mentioned have been legitimized through some sort of "code of honor", "victor's spoils", or simply bankruptcy laws, and not only in ass-backwards middle-eastern societies.

That's why e.g. a murder commited by a jealous husband will receive at least some sympathy and a lighter sentence in a court of law (a relic of bygone era's "honour killings"), while a spree shooter acting simply out of his own internal frustrations won't receive any, and be considered a monster. Which is one of the reasons most spree shooters prefer eating their gun, rather than face the justice and prison system.

And there's ofc rape justification because of the victim's "behavior"...not an Islamic or middle eastern thing at all, sadly.

dethtoll said:

Unanimously my entire ass.

Oh so murder, rape and slavery isn't considered a horrible thing?

Well fuck, what planet have I been on for the last decade?

Maes said:

You actually touched a difficult ethics subject here.

The worst kind of subject to touch on because it can never be really agreed on.

mrthejoshmon said:

Rape, murder, slavery ECT

Don't get me wrong, ECT is definitely horrible, but what if someone acts in a way that provokes the doctors into using it? Maybe some people simply deserve to have their brains treated with electric shocks. Stop hating different cultures.

dew said:

Don't get me wrong, ECT is definitely horrible, but what if someone acts in a way that provokes the doctors into using it? Maybe some people simply deserve to have their brains treated with electric shocks. Stop hating different cultures.

Haha, my bad.

I meant etcetera.

mrthejoshmon said:

Oh so murder, rape and slavery isn't considered a horrible thing?

Not everywhere. In Mauritania, a journalist has been sentenced to death for blasphemy, for having said slavery was bad.

Gez said:

Haha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_France

Those are mainly between the 1930's and 1980's, with one having its last action taken around 1995 and one (according to the wiki) silently ending its existence in 2014. If you look at it that way then every country on the planet would have had its share of active groups.

I admit to my mistake of writing it the way i did with a hasty after edit of my post. It was meant to complement their military and special forces its training and skill, looking at how uncommon these severe incidents are and the time interval between them.

And meanwhile, in Paris.

https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/D78AFFCC221166071822878486528_35accbc1202.1.5.1207953387292696130.mp4?versionId=4Td30eEHnCrVSZzMcflinUmZwuYx7ZAP

Gez said:

Not everywhere. In Mauritania, a journalist has been sentenced to death for blasphemy, for having said slavery was bad.

And doubtlessly, he was also raped.

Which reminds me of the following joke:

The terrible and fearsome pirate Blackbeard, during one of his raids, ordered:

"We'll show no mercy! Kill every woman and child and rape every man!"

His second-in-command said:

"Ehm....Captain....*cough cough* it should be the other way around...."

"Oh, right! Kill every man and rape every woman and child!"

"Hey!" a man's voice with a lisp said. "Changing the rules, are we?!"

franckFRAG said:

And meanwhile, in Paris.

https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/D78AFFCC221166071822878486528_35accbc1202.1.5.1207953387292696130.mp4?versionId=4Td30eEHnCrVSZzMcflinUmZwuYx7ZAP

Heartwarming stuff.

I can only imagine phml saying you know nothing about what's going on in the real France, followed by muttering annoyedly.

dew said:

I can only imagine phml saying you know nothing about what's going on in the real France, followed by muttering annoyedly.

Maybe he's a real, hardcore Grognard?

Muslims are too fixated on Mohammad. They forget about God and they forget about God's commands: Don't kill and Don't do idolatry.

Jimi said:

They forget about God and they forget about God's commands: Don't kill

Quran (17.33)
Do not kill any soul, which God has made forbidden, except in just cause. If anyone has been killed wrongfully and intentionally, We have given his heir (as defender of his rights) the authority (to claim retaliation or damages or to forgive outright). But let him (the heir) not exceed the legitimate bounds in (retaliatory) killing. Indeed he has been helped (already and sufficiently by the provisions and procedures of the Law).

Its left for interpretation as Muhammad has killed many unbelievers and many other people in his conquest for various reasons in the Hadiths and Quran. All Muhammad's actions are an example of God's will.

Quran (5:33)
The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment.]

This is just one of many examples.

Jimi said:

Don't do idolatry.

Pictures of God, Muhammad and, even to far extremes, man made physical manifestations of God's creations can be seen as idolatry. In fact, many Muslims believe that depicting any of God's creations challenges his supremacy as a divine creator. This is why in just about any Mosque you will never see any depiction of anything other than designs and scripts.

mrthejoshmon said:

Oh so murder, rape and slavery isn't considered a horrible thing?

Well fuck, what planet have I been on for the last decade?

You're on planet Earth, which is this diseased little dirtball populated by barely-sapient animals called "humans" who like to kill, rape and enslave each other.

A big portion of the world, including supposedly "civilized" states like the US and China, still perform executions, nevermind that we still have people killing each other over differences in belief systems or ethnicity.

The normalization of rape is an ongoing problem, which leads to a bevy of issues like rape victims being punished for their own rape, severe under-reporting and rape not being called such to avoid having to punish it. Nevermind that the US alone is full of people who say shit like "if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it." And that's the US -- imagine how it is in less advanced nations!

And of course we still have slavery in many parts of the world.

This is the world we live in. You're welcome.

Technician said:

In fact, many Muslims believe that depicting any of God's creations challenges his supremacy as a divine creator.

Haven't they heard of derivative works? As long as the original guy is credited I don't see the problem.

Awful jokes aside, I don't see why it can't be seen as a visual message. I mean, you're allowed to depict things in verbal/textual descriptions and that can be considered being "God's Messenger", but apparently visual communication is different somehow?

You're "creating" an image anyway in your mind whether you intend to or not. If the faith is true, your brain was designed, after all, so that's "God's" will that you create a copy in your mind to begin with. We are inherently visual creatures. Isn't to defy that to defy his will?

When assembling words in your head your imagination produces an image from that description. Why is it problematic that you utilize your imaging abilities more directly? If anything, it'd be more respectful to "God" by looking at a really accurate image (closer to his version) than to distort it from a far lower quality transmission.

Sodaholic said:

Awful jokes aside, I don't see why it can't be seen as a visual message. I mean, you're allowed to depict things in verbal/textual descriptions and that can be considered being "God's Messenger", but apparently visual communication is different somehow?

You're applying rational thoughts to axiomatic religious scripture. The line of thought is extremely simple: depicting God or his Prophet inevitably leads to idolatry and eventually to schism. This goes back to the Old Testament and the part about the Golden Calf, because Muslims fully acknowledge the "previous" monotheistic religions and "update" them.

Problem is, the extremist update all the teaching in various weird ways. Technician mentioned this, Quran doesn't forbid depicting people. That's some Hadith bullshit that interprets people as "made in God's image" (hello, Bible!), therefore depicting people = depicting God = death to infidels. Now going to the opposite extreme, I wonder... perhaps you could make a case that the parodic cartoons of Jyllands-Posten and Charlie Hebdo are the exact opposite of idolatry and no one would ever worship the mockery of God, therefore they're not against that core teaching of Quran, heh. (Of course I expect there is a hymn or whatever that directly says "fuck all other explanations, follow this word by word", but... it's all interpretative allegory.)

mrthejoshmon said:

You violated their rights in a completely unwarranted manner so you should be equally violated as it is only fair that you be treated like you treated your victims, you can't just violate others rights and then expect yours to still be valid.

Meh - Old Testament-style retribution. Sounds fine so long as you don't pause to consider the consequences, such as having to stoop to the offenders "subhuman" level in order enact vengeance.

"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" - Mahatma Ghandi

Just gonna chime in to say I agree with mrthejoshmon in spirit, but That style of punishment just can't always be applied - As others have said, it would get abused frequently (though, what doesn't?)

I support the death penalty, but only if it's me who chooses who lives and who dies, because everyone else will fuck it up! ;)

Maes said:

Maybe he's a real, hardcore Grognard?

Oh my! I knew the word, but I wasn't aware of its origin. This is too perfect!

With the idolatry I meant that the muslims have made Muhammad into an idol with their fixation on him.

Well sure, and Christianity has done the same with Jesus. They're not that different.

Well, but what if we're wrong?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GScdUIYXglA&index=1&list=PL9D1CD5CDC7C1C4B7

EDIT: Video not showing, tags removed.

Zed said:

Well, but what if we're wrong?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GScdUIYXglA&index=1&list=PL9D1CD5CDC7C1C4B7

EDIT: Video not showing, tags removed.

dew said:

I wonder... perhaps you could make a case that the parodic cartoons of Jyllands-Posten and Charlie Hebdo are the exact opposite of idolatry and no one would ever worship the mockery of God, therefore they're not against that core teaching of Quran, heh.

That is true; but they call it blasphemy.

In doing so, they are saying that the Prophet is himself divine, therefore showing that they worship the Prophet, a mortal man, so they are idolaters.

Some reading if you bother.