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Captain Red
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wich of these secniros sounds worse to you...

#1 conclusive proof that the religous fanatic's are right, there is a god, a heven a hell, and most of the dogmatic stuff is right on the money.

#2 conclusive proof that the athisets are right, no god, no afterlife we exisit via a random chain of events.

on the one hand, if #1 would be alot more stressful, (gotta live right, be good be good, god is good, don't want to burn) people would go insain over the smallest things. but perfect justus. and would give many people hope.

however, if #2 were the case, there would be almost certen chaous. many people would simply see no point in doing anything, some crimes would go unpunished... but, maybe people would do there best to have forfilled lives, to live for the moment.

Well kids?

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Old Post 05-26-02 16:39 #
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Lüt
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Either way, it would require there be a world dictator.

Preferably me =)

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Old Post 05-26-02 17:35 #
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Fredrik


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#1 would be the worst.

#2 is completely true to me.

Old Post 05-26-02 17:55 #
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m0l0t0v
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but perfect justus.

Would God bring perfect justice??? His ideas sound like pure dictatorship to me. Do as he sais or burn in hell for all eternity; no freedom; no equality... Welcome to slavery...

however, if #2 were the case, there would be almost certen chaous.
Not if it`s handled with care. The communists seem to think it can work. I agree with them. The only way for man to reach his fullest potential is to find out what man can do without the help of God. As long as God keeps interfering we`ll never know what was done by man and what was done by God. If it turns out there never was a God it would mean that mankind has systematically underestimated itself. If we let go of God there is no telling what we can achieve...
Let us try...

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Old Post 05-26-02 20:59 #
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fodders
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Communism has never achieved any greatness so that theory is dead, defunct, a dead parrot

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Old Post 05-27-02 00:34 #
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Danarchy
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#1: That would absolutely suck. It would mean my life would have just been a lie all along.

#2: I see nothing wrong with that. Thats the belief I have been living with for a while now, and I feel great.

Also, I don't see how everyone thinks Atheism = Anarchy = Kaos = Evil. They are four entirely different concepts.

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Old Post 05-27-02 06:02 #
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IMJack
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Either way, the vast majority of people would be proved wrong in their beliefs. People do not take well to being told they're wrong. Death, destruction, and chaos would ensue. Mmmm... death... destruction... chaos... [drools]

Don't forget there are as many religious dogmas as there are thinking creatures on this world. And under your assumptions, only one can be true.

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Old Post 05-27-02 21:18 #
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m0l0t0v
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Fod:

Communism has never achieved any greatness

You disappoint me Fod, you must be aware of the fact that communism DID achieve greatness!
1. The communists started the exploration of space to name one thing. That was pure greatness!
2. Ever heard of the LONG MARCH: In 1934 130.000 men, women and children led by MAO walked 12.000km across 18 mountainchains, 24 riversand 12 provinces. It toke over a year and every day there were fights with the pursuing democrat-army (the KMT). When they had reached their destination (the mountains of Sjensi) only 30.000 were still alive, but they were free and equal! (OK, so later on Mao did some bad things, but that`s not the point; the point is the Long March was a form of greatness
3. Even greater; the soviets defeated the fascists in `45 when they toke Berlin, thereby putting an end to Hitlers reign of terror after incredible suffering and sacrifice. Without our commie comrades we`d all be dead or wearing brown uniforms.

So if you say communism never did anything great you`re a either a liar, blind or ignorant!


so that theory is dead, defunct, a dead parrot

Communism is alive today, just turn on your tv. There still are communist countries and people and there always will be. You were right to call it a THEORY, because that`s what communism is. The Theory that one day all men and women, no matter race, colour, background (and whatever) can all live together in peace, without poverty, oppression and exploitation, but in freedom and equality!
Just because the theory has proven to be very very difficult to put into practice doesn`t mean it can be given up on. People will always have dreams. Lets hope this dream might be a reality someday.

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Old Post 05-27-02 22:58 #
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fodders
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I mean as a statehood communism died, the few countries that try to keep it going are dying on their feet, China (dead babies in the streets) North Korea (all starving and receiving food aid from us), Cuba (owes $20 billion to Russia, $700 million to Japan etc= stagnant, the list is endless, all failed states

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Last edited by fodders on 05-28-02 at 03:59

Old Post 05-27-02 23:41 #
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Little Faith
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Both options sound equally disturbing to me.

However, people should stop looking at them selves as isolated phenomenons. Of course a person doesn't just die (or get born or live for that purpouse). We are part of something bigger. Just as the atoms are by being part of us.

We are part of a biotope. We are part of a community. We are part of a species. We are part of a star cluster (in fact a full fledged spiral galaxy). We are part of a universe.

Think big my friends, hardline individualism holds nothing more than loneliness.

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Old Post 05-28-02 03:43 #
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Little Faith
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All socialism is not communism.

While I agree that communism was a flawed ideology it still seems wrong to dismiss all socialist thoughts.

Right at the moment we are about to make capitalism and liberalism the only valid choice in politics.

We are fully about to make any form of resistance against the free market impossible.

Oh, what will we wretched beings do when the capitalist system comes crashing down.

The reason behind the lacking youth rebellion of the nineties and the millenium: They simply have no alternative to chose (besides drugs and suicide, of course).

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Old Post 05-28-02 03:54 #
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IMJack
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I see somebody subscribes to the Self-Destruction Thesis of capitalism.

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Old Post 05-28-02 08:07 #
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m0l0t0v
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so that theory is dead


I mean as a statehood communism died


Yeah, whatever...

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Old Post 05-28-02 12:43 #
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Captain Red
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sigh, the problbem with #2 is that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots (you should get the idea) DO strongly beleave in a god, and have devoted there lives to severing he/she/it/thay. now, along comes some concreat everdence proving that what they belive in is utterly false, what do you think they'll do? and lets also rember that there are some people who will do anything as long as thay think they can get away with it. there are psycopaths out there who don't answer to and only to the bible. why else would there be sewerside bombers? if the mentatly that "well I would go out and kill those guys down the road i don't like, but i don't want to burn in hell for it." dosen't stop a relogous loon, what will?

and besides, wile life it's self may suck a monkey through five meters of copper tubing in the #1 world, and lest if you did manage to live under gods lore wile you were alive, you would go th heven, and have the total freedom you desier.

sorry to play the devils' advocate... (yes i realise the hidous irony)

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Old Post 05-28-02 13:02 #
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fodders
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m0l0t0v said:



Yeah, whatever...

Whatever

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-28-02 13:14 #
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Lüt
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m0l0t0v said:
Would God bring perfect justice??? His ideas sound like pure dictatorship to me. Do as he sais or burn in hell for all eternity; no freedom; no equality... Welcome to slavery...
ROFL, whatever, you probably call your parents and teachers slavedrivers too for daring to suggest a lifestyle for you to live.

m0l0t0v said:
The only way for man to reach his fullest potential is to find out what man can do without the help of God.
Erm, actually it would be the other way around, think of the potential man could reach with the help of God that he couldn't reach otherwise.

m0l0t0v said:
As long as God keeps interfering we`ll never know what was done by man and what was done by God.
Isn't it quite obvious that God doesn't interfere with our daily lives? Ct_Red_Pants said just proof that God existed, not that he came down from Heaven and started changing fates.

m0l0t0v said:
If we let go of God there is no telling what we can achieve...
Let us try...

Yeh, we keep getting more hints of what a Godless world would be like everyday. Let's see if one can last even 10 years.

the_Danarchist said:
#1: That would absolutely suck. It would mean my life would have just been a lie all along.
How would it mean that?

It's not like #1 being true would change anything you've done or enjoyed or achieved or suffered through, you'd just get proven wrong on your belief that a God didn't exist.

Little Faith said:
We are part of a biotope. We are part of a community. We are part of a species. We are part of a star cluster (in fact a full fledged spiral galaxy). We are part of a universe.

Think big my friends, hardline individualism holds nothing more than loneliness.

Preach on, brotha! ;)

Little Faith said:
Oh, what will we wretched beings do when the capitalist system comes crashing down.
Probably go on living as usual.

ct_red_pants said:
sigh, the problem with #2 is that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots (you should get the idea) DO strongly believe in a God, and have devoted their lives to serving he/she/it/they. Now, along comes some concrete evidence proving that what they believe in is utterly false, what do you think they'll do?
Dunno, probably get upset.

As for me, it wouldn't change anything I do. I'd live my life the same way and do the same things and treat people the same way regardless of if there was or wasn't a God. I think most other people would too (beyond the initial shock that is).

ct_red_pants said:
why else would there be sewerside bombers?
Maybe a lot of people simply loathe their cities' plumbing system?

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Old Post 05-28-02 14:04 #
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Little Faith
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Lüt said:
Preach on, brotha! ;)
Oh, you would probably want me when I begin to preach about the human hive and the obvious and necessary evolutionary step from flock animals to communal animals.

I do have a(n) (un)healthy fascination with animals that lives in hives.

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Old Post 05-28-02 14:33 #
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Lüt
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Little Faith said:
I do have a(n) (un)healthy fascination with animals that lives in hives.
In that case, I think you'd find me an interesting specimen then =)

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Old Post 05-28-02 14:43 #
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fodders
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Lüt said:
Maybe a lot of people simply loathe their cities' plumbing system?

Hheheheh

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-28-02 17:51 #
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m0l0t0v
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Lüt:

ROFL, whatever, you probably call your parents and teachers slavedrivers too for daring to suggest a lifestyle for you to live.

My parents can`t/wouldn`t send me to hell to burn for all eternity if i disagree.

Erm, actually it would be the other way around, think of the potential man could reach with the help of God that he couldn't reach otherwise.

Like what?You can`t know that unless you try!


Isn't it quite obvious that God doesn't interfere with our daily lives? Ct_Red_Pants said just proof that God existed, not that he came down from Heaven and started changing fates.

proof that God existed, IS that he came down from Heaven and started changing fates.


Yeh, we keep getting more hints of what a Godless world would be like everyday. Let's see if one can last even 10 years.

You`re right; 2000 years of Christianity has brought us nothing but joy and justice. If it wasn`t for those damn scientists and thinkers, the world might never have known war, oppression, slavery, genocide etc. (SARCASM!!!)

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Old Post 05-28-02 17:52 #
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Spike
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Crap, if someone came out with proof that God, Satan, Heaven and Hell were figments of a drunken jesuit's imagination, i'd be the happiest soul on earth.
We could disband the religious groups from round the world (and channel the money into something constructive), put an end to several millenia of bloodshed, and all be happy-happy-joy-joy.

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Old Post 05-28-02 19:54 #
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Little Faith
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What would you do with the empty churches then? It would be a shame just to bulldoze such fine buildings away.

Anyone have any suggestions?

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Old Post 05-28-02 20:40 #
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Spike
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Convert em into YMCAs?
Live in em?
I get first dibs on Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, damn that building kicks arse :) i actually spent a whole day walking round it, seeing the building as a Q3A dm map, with bouncy pads that launch you over the graveyard and onto the tower.
Man, maybe i *have* got too much spare time on my hands.

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Old Post 05-28-02 21:05 #
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JavaGuy
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Geeze, it's like all you people think ALL gods are dictators. I simply see the god/s and/or goddess/s to be creators, not that they need to control everything, but because, I dunno, they got bored? If humans had a good relationship with god AND their fellow humans, and the world didn't have a fucked up way of thinking, most of you wouldn't feel so strongly against it.

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Old Post 05-29-02 01:47 #
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fodders
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God is a mentor not a dictator

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 05-29-02 02:05 #
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GS-1719
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Spike said:
Crap, if someone came out with proof that God, Satan, Heaven and Hell were figments of a drunken jesuit's imagination, i'd be the happiest soul on earth.
We could disband the religious groups from round the world (and channel the money into something constructive), put an end to several millenia of bloodshed, and all be happy-happy-joy-joy.



Read the signature.

Old Post 05-30-02 18:34 #
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Spike
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I have a moral code, as does my wife, and the rest of my family.
However, this code comes from our upbringing, not thru worship of a god. Whatever religion any of us should choose to follow, we have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to ram said religion down the throats of others.

We don't need some omnipotent being to tell us what is right and wrong - after all every person on this planet is their own god and devil. It comes out in our lives in the good and bad things we do.

The order in life doesn't really come from religion now, does it? I mean, how many people in this world actually go to church, even if they do claim to follow a religion? And don't tell me that the catholic church provides order for people - how many paedophiles exist within that particular system? And the chaos in the middle east, is that particular brand of chaos not fuelled by religious zealots?

I think i said it best in the prologue to my wads :
"As always, differing religious opinion brings forth tension. From tension comes war".

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Old Post 05-30-02 20:26 #
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m0l0t0v
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Spike:

...as does my wife, and the rest of my family.

You married someone from your family!? That`s just sick!
I`m just kidding (haha!).

Seriously: I agree with you Spike; people make up their own religions. All christians I know say they follow the word of God, but don`t seem to realize they`re just following their own word. God may tell you what is right and wrong. But man can only learn himself what is true and false (with logic). God may tell us that homosexuals are to be killed, and it is good to do so but we must first decide if we agree. "Is that really the way the bible should be interpreted?" If you`re opposed to violence (or gay yourself) you will choose to follow another interpretation and believe in a 'different' God. You don`t obey God; God obeys you! To put it bluntly:

We don't need some omnipotent being to tell us what is right and wrong - after all every person on this planet is their own god and devil.

fodders:

God is a mentor not a dictator

Man is his own mentor and dictator.

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Old Post 05-31-02 16:28 #
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Spike
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Nice to know there are like-minded people out there :)

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Old Post 05-31-02 18:50 #
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Nice to know there are like-minded people out there :)

Old Post 06-02-02 19:42 #
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