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Scientist
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m0l0t0v said:
Would God bring perfect justice??? His ideas sound like pure dictatorship to me. Do as he sais or burn in hell for all eternity; no freedom; no equality... Welcome to slavery...


I agree

from Paradise Lost -Milton:

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n.
"

I know I've quoted this before but I thought it would fit nicely in this discussion.

Milton claims these are the words Lucifer spoke when he and the other fallen angels were thrown out of heaven after their rebellion against god.

Milton's belief was that knowledge and freedom are what make us human, and that any authority that prevents us from learning our true nature or choosing our own destiny is evil, no matter how it may characterize itself. The angels were slaves before the rebellion in heaven because they never questioned their actions, just as Adam and Eve were slaves in the Garden of Eden because they did what they were told without wondering if it was good or bad.

Sure doing what god wants you to do will assure you you will always do the right thing. But you'll be nothing more than a slave.

A mentor can give you advice about what is right or wrong and you can freely choose whether you will follow this advice or not. This is not the case with god. god wants your unconditional devotion (he wants your soul).
He gave you a free will so you can choose to surrender it to him (how nice of him).

Old Post 06-02-02 19:44 #
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m0l0t0v
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#1 conclusive proof that the religous fanatic's are right, there is a god, a heven a hell, and most of the dogmatic stuff is right on the money.
If God exists then why doesn`t He prove it? He had plenty of opportunities. The Second World War would have been a 'great' time for a revelation or (second) Messiah. Instead God looked down on the Earth and just watched millions and millions of people being slaughtered in his name.

You could argue it was all a test, to see if we would still believe even after such horrors...
But if this was a test, God is either very evil or he can`t possibly hold it against you if you stop believing in a caring God (God may have created the world, but he sure doesn`t care about what happens to it and it inhabitants). If WWII proved anything about God it is that (if he exists) he doesn`t care. And if he doesn`t care about us his word is useless to us.


#2 conclusive proof that the athisets are right, no god, no afterlife we exisit via a random chain of events.
It is impossible to prove God doesn`t exist, but lack of prove he does exist, would make #2 the logical choise to follow.

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Old Post 06-04-02 01:00 #
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fodders
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The mass deaths of WW2 cannot be taken as a sign that if there is a God he doesn't care.
The afterlife He promises us is so much better than the life we spend on earth that to be taken to it would be a Good thing in His eyes, not a punishment

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Old Post 06-04-02 12:02 #
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Danarchy
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If there is a God, then he's a sadistic sonofabitch. I've dona all the good I can in this world. If he hates me, then he's a fucking nazi.

Meh...I'm just kinda pissed right now.

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Old Post 06-05-02 00:53 #
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mOl0tov said:
If God exists then why doesn`t He prove it?


the_Danarchist said:
If there is a God, then he's a sadistic sonofabitch. I've dona all the good I can in this world. If he hates me, then he's a fucking nazi.

Meh...I'm just kinda pissed right now.
Anti-Semitic statements to be found in the New Testament:

Matthew 8:12 ~ But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.

Matthew 23:37-38 ~ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 27:25 ~ Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Comment - To imagine that this self curse on their children was actually uttered by any group of Jews, is a violation of respect for the human intellect.

Mark 13:9 ~ But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten.

Mark 16:16 ~ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 8:44-47 ~ Ye (Jews) are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Acts 7:51-53 ~ Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? They have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Acts 13:45-46 ~ But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Titus 1:10-14 ~ For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 ~ For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1 John 2:22-23 ~ Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


After reading these quotes one could say that the troubles jews were/are experiencing are proclaimed by the New Testament. According to the NT these problems will stop when the jews acknowledge Jesus as the Christ.
I'm not saying this is the right interpretation, I'm just sharing a common theory with you. So don't go calling me anti-semitic!

Old Post 06-05-02 09:37 #
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fodders said:
The mass deaths of WW2 cannot be taken as a sign that if there is a God he doesn't care.
The afterlife He promises us is so much better than the life we spend on earth that to be taken to it would be a Good thing in His eyes, not a punishment


Even you must hear the emptiness of those words.

Old Post 06-05-02 09:40 #
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Fredrik


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If the afterlife is so much better, I'm surprised that anyone at all manages to live on in this world.

Old Post 06-05-02 09:51 #
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Zaldron
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I don't see any ads regarding afterlife. It can't be that good.

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Old Post 06-05-02 11:38 #
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fodders
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It's like one of those secret superb holiday resorts, you don't want to tell too many people about it or they ruin the exclusiveness of it :)

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 06-05-02 12:38 #
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m0l0t0v
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I would love to hear God justify all of the pain and suffering he caused and/or has allowed to take place:

"I know you`re angry with me mOlly," he`ll say "but you see it was all part of a bigger plan. I had to allow countless of people to die horrible deaths, simply because ...bla bla bla..."

And I`ll say: "Your right; I was so foolish to believe you were evil, now I realize you were being a GOOD god sitting on your throne watching the horrors 'in a caring way'. Knowing you will give the exact same 'care' to our children and their children (etc) I can now relax and enjoy 'one of those superb holiday' and be happy for all eternity."

...sarcasm... :P

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Last edited by m0l0t0v on 06-05-02 at 20:02

Old Post 06-05-02 19:36 #
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GS-1719
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What is the root of all evil? The absence of good. The sins committed by people not following the teachings of God is the problem.

Old Post 06-05-02 20:09 #
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Rellik
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yeah I think you're missing the point that God doesn't kill people, people kill people.

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Old Post 06-05-02 21:51 #
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Little Faith
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Have you ever wondered why young people seems so loath to follow God these days.

This was not meant as an insult of any kind. I just wanted to make you think a bit.

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Old Post 06-05-02 21:55 #
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Danarchy
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Good and evil. Right and wrong. All bullshit.

Life is what you make of it.

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Old Post 06-06-02 06:09 #
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m0l0t0v
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Rellik:

yeah I think you're missing the point that God doesn't kill people, people kill people.

I`m not saying God kills people; I don`t even believe he exists. We were just discussing rather or not God ,if he exists, would care about us.

GS-1719:

What is the root of all evil? The absence of good. The sins committed by people not following the teachings of God is the problem.
Sais a guy with the Sigil of Baphomet as his avatar...

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Old Post 06-06-02 08:00 #
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m0l0t0v
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D(A)N:

Good and evil. Right and wrong. All bullshit.
Life is what you make of it.



Nice to know there are like-minded people out there :)

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Old Post 06-06-02 08:05 #
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Zaldron
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Little Faith said:
Have you ever wondered why young people seems so loath to follow God these days.

A combination of things, I guess. Technology and Science are an important of our Civilization, and neither of them prove or ensure you there is a God. Then you have advanced communication devices that let you see what's going on in the rest of the countries, everyday. You can see war, plague, famine and corruption regardless of each country's predominant religion. You can read History and realize how many things the Church fucked up, how did it halted progress for several centuries, how intolerant it was in the Inquisition. Then you can read the actual scriptures and realize how out of place they are for today's society.

It would be cool if there was an active God, that actually manifests himself in his glory and does stuff. All mediums seem to forget the important aspects of their religion and selfishly focus on the extracts that support their personal causes. If the top authorities in each religion deserve one big RTFM, then why should I bother accepting all that stuff?

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Old Post 06-06-02 09:36 #
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fodders
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The good thing about believing in God and Heaven is if proven right I can say "Told you so!", but if an unbeliever is proven right he can't :)

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You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 06-06-02 12:03 #
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fodders said:
The good thing about believing in God and Heaven is if proven right I can say "Told you so!", but if an unbeliever is proven right he can't :)

I don't get it.

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Old Post 06-06-02 13:06 #
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dsm
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fodders said:
The good thing about believing in God and Heaven is if proven right I can say "Told you so!", but if an unbeliever is proven right he can't :)

Uhh why not?
Can't he just say "Hah, I TOLD you that there wasn't a God!"?

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Old Post 06-06-02 13:54 #
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You are confused, I meant after death

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 06-06-02 14:20 #
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m0l0t0v
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f0dders:

The good thing about believing in God and Heaven is if proven right I can say "Told you so!", but if an unbeliever is proven right he can't :)

You have converted me!
:)

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Old Post 06-06-02 15:48 #
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fodders said:
You are confused, I meant after death

We're young peolple. We don't think of being dead.
:-)

Old Post 06-06-02 18:35 #
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Little Faith
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Well you should. Have you ever thought about that what will happen to your body when you die.

Of all those toxins our body is exposed to during life not all are excreted again. Have you ever thought about what risk your dead body are gonna pose to the environment?

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Old Post 06-06-02 19:07 #
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Spike
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'God' may not kill people, but his/her misinterpreted teachings do send others on the war march.
Apparantly, if we want a divorce we're on our way to hell. Likewise if we're gay. Women become downtrodden servants to their husbands (might as well call em 'masters' while we're at it), followers of other religions are to be destroyed cuz, hey, there's only one true god, right?

Man, i could tear down western religion all bloody day...

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Old Post 06-06-02 19:20 #
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fodders
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God will get you for that

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 06-06-02 23:23 #
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Rellik
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I think another reason the youth of today doesn't want to worship or actively participate in religeon is because pop culture tells us we shouldn't believe in anything unless a celebrity says it. And how many musicians say "religeon is for sheep!" versus "don't listen to me either, go find your own goddamn answers". heh, just incase there is a God, I gotta stop blaspheming so much....

As in all things, pop culture is to blame. Pop Culture - Our culture of popularity... bah. Sends shivers down my spine just thinking about it.

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Old Post 06-07-02 00:28 #
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Phoenix
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Spike said:
'God' may not kill people, but his/her misinterpreted teachings do send others on the war march.
Apparantly, if we want a divorce we're on our way to hell. Likewise if we're gay. Women become downtrodden servants to their husbands (might as well call em 'masters' while we're at it), followers of other religions are to be destroyed cuz, hey, there's only one true god, right?

Man, i could tear down western religion all bloody day...


Four weeks ago I would have argued against, now ironically I agree.

If you study the origins of Christianity you'll find a lot of interesting historical facts. You will draw parallels between ancient believes and Christianity. The objections you just voiced, against religion have more to do with their origins than god, well the god Christians claim to follow.

If you serious about 'bashing' religion there is nothing more powerful then getting the facts and throwing it in their faces. Be careful though, the reason religion has such a violent history, Christianity especially, are partly those facts and mostly the greed of the rulers.

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Old Post 06-07-02 00:43 #
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Rellik said:
I think another reason the youth of today doesn't want to worship or actively participate in religeon is because pop culture tells us we shouldn't believe in anything unless a celebrity says it. And how many musicians say "religeon is for sheep!" versus "don't listen to me either, go find your own goddamn answers". heh, just incase there is a God, I gotta stop blaspheming so much....


Not sure what you mean. I am over the hill when it comes to pop-culture. If celebrities have more weight in my son's ears than I, this would be my fault. In other words lets blame those who may be to blame.
We all got our heros, I still have my own. Yet in the end my biggest hero was my dad and mom.

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Old Post 06-07-02 00:48 #
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Danarchy
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Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If any sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

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Old Post 06-07-02 03:21 #
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