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Kontra Kommando

Hobbes vs Locke: The Nature of Humanity

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This seems to be evolving more into a debate on human nature.

Here's two preeminent schools of thought on the subject:

Hobbes vs Locke

"bellum omnium contra omnes" Verses "people are generally nice."

http://johnmarshall.rochester.k12.mn.us/common/pages/DisplayFile.aspx?itemId=6167272


Btw, I suggest that people generally "are" assholes by nature. Which I believe to be a positive statement; it merely speaks of reality. This is different from the assertions that people "should" be assholes; which is a depraved normative statement. People shouldn't be assholes, but again, that's just a normative declaration.

We are all guilty of subscribing to both ideologies from time to time. For example, regulation is more inclined to the ideas that hobbes suggest. While believing that private people can be trusted, is a pre-requisite for neoliberalism.

While people that hold those same beliefs will switch between their general trust towards humanity, when it comes to other topics. There's really no absolutes overall, because its interchangeable according to the individual's preferences.

Original thread below.

Spoiler




http://pix11.com/2015/04/16/espn-reporter-britt-mchenry-caught-on-camera-berating-parking-lot-attendant/

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/britt-mchenry-suspension-espn-video-clip-too-easy-one-week

Maybe you might have heard of this story in the news. But honestly, is this really that bad? I think people like to give too much flak to others, for things that regular people do themselves. But just because they happen to be famous, or on TV, anyone perceived acting inappropriately will be crucified by social media. No doubt, she may sound like a snob, but we’re only seeing her on camera.

Though, I know a lot of people like to root for the underdog; like people in low-level positions like the clerk. But more and more, I see people being attacked in social meda for being poltically incorrect, or emotional, or sneezing the wrong way. It seems like we're in the information age's version of the Salem Witch Trials, or McCarthyism.

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Quite tame taunting. Once you have seen the world of Dota 2, you can take anything (except Heroes of Newerth).

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there truly seems to be an increase in people going insane in the online world whenever they notice emotions in another human. which could very well mean the one attacking somebody for being a human is the true ill, troubled, or weird guy or woman.

while describing the truth seems to go down the wrong hole with people not willing to recognize it at times, its still clear as daylight because the Current day Online behaviour is realy crossing borders towards seriously insane circumstances.

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Maybe she could make a new career out of disrespecting people, like Charlie Sheen. It seems like the Pavlov's dogs of the internet world respond differently, if you continue to have bad behavior. They seem to punish people more if they do something bad, and apologize for it.

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Kontra Kommando said:

The point is, what if the person that is being talked down to… actually deserves it?!

lmao

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The parking attendant has a shit job. I cut anyone slack that has a shit job. On the other hand maybe he asked her to flash him and he'll waive whatever fee there was.

Its not the whole video, so all I have is wild speculation.

who is Britt McHenry? I honestly don't know. Was she on MTV or one of those trashy reality stars? Good thing she has a degree to break into television and become famous for whatever it is that she's obviously famous for.

No one will care in a week. If she wasn't a young blonde the story wouldn't be popular like that mom playing naked twister.

Reese Withersppon's husband was pulled over by the cops and Reese flipped out about it. Do you know who I am? No.... all blondes look alike. I hate to be racist, but they do. I can't pick Jenna Jamesson out of a lineup.

There was that bus assistant who was bullied by kids so bad she started to cry and then got a vacation and a lot of donations for it when she failed at doing her job.

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Kontra Kommando said:

Maybe you might have heard of this story in the news. But honestly, is this really that bad?

Yes.

I think people like to give too much flak to others, for things that regular people do themselves.

"Regular people" don't act like this.

It's almost sickening that you would watch a video like this and think it was normal behavior to verbally abuse someone like that for doing their job.


But just because they happen to be famous, or on TV, anyone perceived acting inappropriately will be crucified by social media. No doubt, she may sound like a snob, but we’re only seeing her on camera.

No, you got that backward.

What you should have said was, "we're seeing video evidence of what she's like when she's off-camera".

The point is, what if the person that is being talked down to… actually deserves it?!

Complete bullshit. What would be an example of something that the parking lot clerk would possibly have said that would have justified the way she spoke to them? Because I can't think of anything.

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Kontra Kommando said:

The point is, what if the person that is being talked down to… actually deserves it?!

Yes, let's talk about your "point". Please, enlighten us! Does the person in question deserve all that mockery and contempt? You're clearly pushing us in that direction, so I insist you say your opinion out loud. You're using a lot of ridiculous big words like "witch trials" and "McCarthyism", so back it up with a clear opinion.

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fraggle said:

"Regular people" don't act like this.


I take it, you've never been to new york.

fraggle said:

It's almost sickening that you would watch a video like this and think it was normal behavior to verbally abuse someone like that for doing their job.


Let's not get personal...

We don't know if this person was actualy doing their job properly. The video started with her threatening to sue the establisment.

fraggle said:

No, you got that backward.

What you should have said was, "we're seeing video evidence of what she's like when she's off-camera".


Everyone has moments like this, we're not robots. I'm sure she does act like this when she's mad, or offended. But I bet she would behave differently, in different situations. The camera just happens to catch her in a moment were she was reacting to frustration.

fraggle said:

Complete bullshit. What would be an example of something that the parking lot clerk would possibly have said that would have justified the way she spoke to them? Because I can't think of anything.


I don't, but it happened. I'm sure she didn't just go up to her and said, "I'm going to fucking sue this place", for no reason what so ever.

Is it wrong for her to have been so rancorous towards the parking clerk? yes. But should she be massively ridiculed for having a human reaction; lose her job; etc? No, I believe that is also wrong. Ultimately, this is what I'm getting at here.

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dew said:

Yes, let's talk about your "point". Please, enlighten us! Does the person in question deserve all that mockery and contempt? You're clearly pushing us in that direction, so I insist you say your opinion out loud. You're using a lot of ridiculous big words like "witch trials" and "McCarthyism", so back it up with a clear opinion.


"Witch trial" are two words that are small. McCarthyism is not a big word either.

The point I'm making is that people get frustrated, and tell people off. If you're saying that you have never done that, you're a liar. What I'm saying is pretty clear, maybe she said or had done something that did in fact merit that response. And regardless, her life should not be destroyed because of it.

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Kontra Kommando said:

Everyone has moments like this, we're not robots.


Exactly, its part of being a human. You dont walk around screaming and roaring all day for every day of the year, but when something pushes it to much... snap.

people without the ability to understand, feel, or have compassion and emmpathy are named psychopaths. It has nothing to do with murder, but with the fact of them not having a real or standard emotional existence. (they cant even understand what somebody else feels.)

The point is, a healthy human has emotions. Its just a matter of self contraint and empathy towards others which makes it seem otherwise at times, together with social pressure.

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I knew nothing of this particular incident until this thread. I love it. I really really do. Things like this I hope occur far more often than they already do, day after day after day.

We truly are fucking animals and our society deserves every bit of this.

Kontra Kommando said:

"Witch trial" are two words that are small. McCarthyism is not a big word either.

Yes, being falsely accused of witchcraft on rumor and hearsay and then subsequently, quite literally being burned alive is the same as being legitimately recorded as being a fuckhead and losing your job.

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Quast said:

I knew nothing of this particular incident until this thread. I love it. I really really do. Things like this I hope occur far more often than they already do, day after day after day.

We truly are fucking animals and our society deserves [b]every bit of this.


I think you could benifit from listening to the pod cast posted by Bloodshedder.

Quast said:

Yes, being falsely accused of witchcraft on rumor and hearsay and then subsequently, quite literally being burned alive is the same as being legitimately recorded as being a fuckhead and losing your job.


Are you fucking serious? you've never heard of a situation being compared to a witch-hunt?

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Kontra Kommando said:

"Witch trial" are two words that are small. McCarthyism is not a big word either.

The point I'm making is that people get frustrated, and tell people off. If you're saying that you have never done that, you're a liar. What I'm saying is pretty clear, maybe she said or had done something that did in fact merit that response. And regardless, her life should not be destroyed because of it.

Fuck her and her career, I don't owe her anything. Your near-Godwin apologism only makes me less understanding. By your own logic it's only natural for me to get mad and tell the bitch off.

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dew said:

Fuck her and her career, I don't owe her anything. Your near-Godwin apologism only makes me less understanding. By your own logic it's only natural for me to get mad and tell the bitch off.


Actually, you're misinterpreting what I mean here. I don't praise her reaction. But what I am condemning here is the vigilante mob-like destruction of a person. Think about it, if someone commits a murder, would it be right for the town to just hang the person? Or rather, have the police put them under arrest, and presented in front of a jury of their peers? Obviously we choose the latter. So why should revert into the opposite behavior when it comes to other infractions in society? Though, I don't believe the state should punish people either. There just needs to be some other kind of resolution to this. But the more I think about it; its a case of freedom of speech verse freedom of speech. She can say how she feels, but so can everyone else. Its a difficult area, because it requires humans to not be vicious without wanted regulation.

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I agree it sucks how the internet can ruin lives like that through overexposure. Of course everyone who blames her is a perfect human being and they never said any bad things under stress.

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Kontra Kommando said:

Are you fucking serious? you've never heard of a situation being compared to a witch-hunt?

When the end results or consequences between events being compared are orders of magnitude in difference, the comparison is worthless. It matters not whether I've simply heard of things being compared to other things.

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She was suspended for a week, she didn't lose her job. Where the fuck did that come from? How is this in anyway comparable to a lynching? It's the corporate equivalent of a sack-tap.

As to the 'meltdown' or the 'tirade' - whatever. As some who used to work in customer service, this happens pretty frequently. Usually the insults suffered have more to do with intelligence than physical appearance. McHenry adding 'suing' to the mix sort of makes it a holy trinity I guess.

She pretty much sealed her fate when she started, though. "I'm on television" is pretty much a full-stop sign of a bourgeois smug bastard, and in this case, I'm glad there was some comeuppance.

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I could quite happily watch this person being compressed in a car crusher, frame by frame, until she vomited her internal organs and started pissing blood through her eyes.

Bon voyage.

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Kontra Kommando said:

I take it, you've never been to new york.

Kontra Kommando said:

Let's not get personal...

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Snakes said:

She was suspended for a week, she didn't lose her job. Where the fuck did that come from? How is this in anyway comparable to a lynching? It's the corporate equivalent of a sack-tap.


I had meant that in relation to usually what happens in this kind of situation. But I wonder what her future will be like in the coming weeks.

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I do think that there is a legitimate discussion to be had on our "right to be forgotten" in the digital age where it's possible for your worst moment to live on forever, but any discussion about it seems to inevitably slide into people complaining about how other people are too easily offended / too offensive, and then into namecalling and someone calling someone else a SJW or a nazi or whatever, and then it all gets post helled totally ruined.

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Things like this arent new at all, but the destruction of lives has become a bigger problem.
Nobody deserves to be ruined, and eventually slandered all over the internet with a bunch of lies because he or she showed emotions once or twice in his or her life. the ones that cant see, hear, feel, or handle them are the ones with true problems, like the internet psychopaths (people with no empathy or real emotions).

side note. proverbs and sayings ;
in english, and even in belgian dutch a witch-hunt is a generaly used expression. Its just plain weird and truly stunning how some people instantly cry wolf with truly mind bothering diversions. The expression / saying "a witch hunt" cant be compared to the actual act of burning woman from times long gone. not even in the slightest. At least here they where part of the language based education both native and foreign.

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Quast said:

When the end results or consequences between events being compared are orders of magnitude in difference, the comparison is worthless. It matters not whether I've simply heard of things being compared to other things.


Yes, but that didn't stop Arther Miller from comparing the witch trials to the McCarthy Trials, in his book the Crucible. During the 1950s they would refer to the search for communists in America, as witch hunts. I added the comparison of what is happening with overexposure and persecution from social media.

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Kontra Kommando said:

Actually, you're misinterpreting what I mean here. I don't praise her reaction. But what I am condemning here is the vigilante mob-like destruction of a person. Think about it, if someone commits a murder, would it be right for the town to just hang the person? Or rather, have the police put them under arrest, and presented in front of a jury of their peers? Obviously we choose the latter. So why should revert into the opposite behavior when it comes to other infractions in society? Though, I don't believe the state should punish people either. There just needs to be some other kind of resolution to this. But the more I think about it; its a case of freedom of speech verse freedom of speech. She can say how she feels, but so can everyone else. Its a difficult area, because it requires humans to not be vicious without wanted regulation.

Comparing her situation to lynching murderers, burning witches or ostracizing leftists during the Red Scare when she's merely being suspended for a week by her employers for her outrageous tantrum is so overly dramatic that I can't take your loaded pleas seriously.

And why do you bring the state into this? Or free speech? You fail to realize - no one is prosecuting the cow, no one is saying what she did was illegal. If you're so worried about legality here, please stop treading on the sacred rights of her employers to punish an idiot that acts against their unswayingly humanistic corporate policies.

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Kontra Kommando said:

more and more, I see people being attacked in social meda for being poltically incorrect, or emotional, or sneezing the wrong way. It seems like we're in the information age's version of the Salem Witch Trials, or McCarthyism.

People LOVE to trash talk others, even if they'd do the exact same thing or worse. I have this hunch it's getting worse as time goes on, but I hope I'm wrong.

After all, at least we don't literally burn these people at the stake.. It would be nice if we could all learn to respect others and stop being shitheads, but we're just hairless apes anyway so I don't expect too much.

Memfis said:

I agree it sucks how the internet can ruin lives like that through overexposure. Of course everyone who blames her is a perfect human being and they never said any bad things under stress.

Seriously. QFT.

darknation said:

I could quite happily watch this person being compressed in a car crusher, frame by frame, until she vomited her internal organs and started pissing blood through her eyes.

Bon voyage.

I feel awful for this, but, the ball of hate inside my chest is building up so much over the years that I'm inclined to agree. I know it's wrong, but there we are..

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dew said:

Comparing her situation to lynching murderers, burning witches or ostracizing leftists during the Red Scare when she's merely being suspended for a week by her employers for her outrageous tantrum is so overly dramatic that I can't take your loaded pleas seriously.

And why do you bring the state into this? Or free speech? You fail to realize - no one is prosecuting the cow, no one is saying what she did was illegal. If you're so worried about legality here, please stop treading on the sacred rights of her employers to punish an idiot that acts against their unswayingly humanistic corporate policies.


Well, than maybe we shouldn't have a discussion about this at all according to you. Yet, curiously, you continue the discussion.

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It was really mean stuff to say, but who knows what was said before hand or what actually happened. The most offensive part of the video to me is that she thinks she should be able to get special treatment simply because she's on TV

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