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Little Faith
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What do you believe are the most important steps to be taken in order to combat militant fanaticism?

Do we get any pointers from history (WW2, the Dark Ages)?

Or do we have to adapt to a totally new situation?

Are the answers to be found in military actions?

Or rather in the legal/law enforcement area?

Or perhaps it's i the socio/economic or cultural spheres the solution is to be found.

Perhaps it's a combination of all of the above.


Come on, give it a shot. I know you all find the problem relevant.

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Old Post 06-05-02 18:40 #
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VileSlay
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all of the above, with heavy adaptation. we have learn that each situation and person, although similar to past events and figures, are really different. we cannot deal with each one the same way.

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Old Post 06-05-02 18:52 #
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Little Faith
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What did you mean with heavy adaption?

I hardly said anything of any real value.

They were all open questions, so of course they need to be "filled up" with somethin in order to make sense.

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Old Post 06-05-02 19:24 #
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fodders
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I presume you mean fanatic of the Moslem faith?
There are many different Moslem fanatics causing problems around the world, each needs to be addressed differently
Palestine is the most often in the news, and was the root cause of the attacks on America
Should you give in to the jihad and stop protecting Israel supplying it with 6 billion dollars of arms every year, veto any UN resolutions that do not suit Israel?
Or should Israel be forced to follow the UN resolutions in place about giving the Palestinians land back and withdrawing from occupied lands?
Chechnya is another country they called jihad in, they want independance, do you just give it to them?


The whole area of Yoguslavia Bosnia (The Balkans) is a conflict between Christian and Moslems, it caused 2 world wars and was so near causing the third. What do you do when Moslems are invading your country? Slobodan Milosevic is now under trial for his efforts to resist the terrorists. President Slobodan Milosevic strongly advocated peaceful resolution of the problem of Serbia’s Province Kosovo and Metohija. However, he could not accept the occupation of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which was tried to be imposed through the so called Rambouillet Accord.

Southern Philippines. called the Moro jihad
The Moro Jihad has been in three phases:

First Phase: the Moro Jihad against the Spanish invasion (1521-1898) 377 years.

Second Phase: the Moro Jihad against the American colonisers (1898 - 1946) 47 years.

Third Phase: the Moro Jihad against the Philippine crusade (1970 - present).

Can you see a trend? And in the Philippines it shows that timeframe means nothing, every country is under threat
China:
Chinese officials blame Muslim militants from the Uighur minority group for more than 200 violent incidents between 1990 and 2001. China accuses Uighur separatists in Xinjiang province of receiving financial and material aid from al-Qaeda in their struggle to establish an independent state

Africa: SUDAN, Africa's largest country, has been convulsed for 18 years by a brutal civil war that has claimed 2 million lives. Once dubbed "the forgotten war," Sudan's internal conflict has attracted growing international attention because of mounting evidence that Sudan's radical Islamic regime has resorted to systematic bombing of civilians, starvation, slavery, ethnic cleansing, religious persecution, and other human rights abuses to break the will of the opposition, composed predominantly of Christians and animists living in the south.

Africa:ERITREA,The Islamic Jihad Movement in Eritrea issued bulletin number 101 which gave information as to the biggest battle to take place in 1997 with the Christian forces in Eritrea. The bulletin stated that 4000 Eritrean troops equipped with 10 tanks, two missile launchers, a number of armoured vehicles and heavy artillery vehicles moved towards the Mujahideen positions near the Eritrea-Sudan border. A heated and fierce battle took place between the two parties which continued from dawn until sunset. Alhamdulillah, the Mujahidun had good results in this battle, against the rain of enemy fire including mortar shells, RBG, Doshka, and machine gun fire. The battle resulted in:
1200 Dead Christian soldiers,
800 wounded who filled up the Eritrean hospitals after being removed from the battle field.
The destruction of 5 tanks and two vehicles,
The death of 11 officers of varying ranks,
The death of 9 Israeli experts who were fighting with the Christians against the Muslims.
I could go on all day, there is a clear and perceived danger from these so called fundamentalist Moslem groups

Denmark seems to be a base for many publications championing the cause of the jihad, Usama Rushdi is the group's Netherlands-based media spokesman who publishes Al-Gama's publication, "Al-Murabitoun," or "Garrisoned Warriors."
The Gamaa organ and the Al Mujahidoun organ also published in Denmark

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Last edited by fodders on 06-05-02 at 20:49

Old Post 06-05-02 20:33 #
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Little Faith
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I was trying not to exclude the:

Hindu nationalists in the Gujarat-province who are often just as bad as the moslem fanatics they are fighting.

Militant israeli enclaves in the Palestine sectors.

Everpresent conflict in Northern Ireland (though I don't really think it's religious fanaticism. Still it's dangerous).

Our own remaining neo-nazis (they DO pose a problem in Germany).

The special American brand of Christian fanaticism (though it have yet to show it's militancy big-scale).


The moslem fanatics do pose the biggest problem right now. Mainly due to the great upheavals and wars in the middle east. (We can go into a quite lengthy discussion of whether the wars are the source of the fanaticism or the fanaticism is the source of the wars).

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Old Post 06-05-02 20:57 #
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Little Faith
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Actually that's major stuff in the news right now. Germany have been angry at us for ages because Nazi organisations uses Denmark as a base of communications. The problem is that it is rather hard in Denmark to make exceptions to people's right to freedom of speech (a thing we value quite dearly). When obvious limitations have to be exacted the system is very rigid.

There are only two things that can be punished by the removal of the freedom of speech and the right to form assemblies. These two things are: 1. Encouraging the use of violence. 2. Encouraging racism, sexism and religiously motivated hatred.

Of course most fanatical groups are bound to break one of these two rules sooner or later, but the law is badly implemented and full of loopholes and we need to be presented vith very hard evidence if anything are going to happen.

The hammer fell on Hizb-ut-Tahir, but they did break BOTH laws quite squarely by announcing that it was every pious muslim's duty to kill as many jews as possible.


The problem with disbanding such organisations is that legal measures alone aren't gonna cut it. Simply banning a fundamentalist organisation would merely make it madder (and more attractive to new recruits). Of course intense law enforcement are going to make life hard for the organisations, but such law enforcement costs many resources and in the end the organisation will usually emerge stronger.

We must make sure that such organisations get's no support at all and here we need the help of the moslem communities. Imams can be valuable allies because they have the ability to brand something as not being "true to the tenets of Islam". An other powerful ally are the so-called "parent groups" which are made up by the parents of second-generation immigrants. Their purpouse was originally to keep their children away from crime. Now they also serve the purpouse of keeping their sons away from the ruses of fundamentalist religion.

Fanaticism thrives on hatred. Both hating and being hated. By showing contempt of the moslem world we are in fact nursing the fundamentalist beast.

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Old Post 06-05-02 21:36 #
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Black
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...Laughter...

What a surprise... Major stuff in the news is always about war or death or hatred. Simply put you cannot get rid of neo-nazis. Racism and prejudice are innate in everyone. The fact that people hate neo-nazis for being neo-nazis is prejudice. It is all the same.

There is no such thing as censorship, salvation, forgiveness or peace. Not in the real world anyway. Heh. There is no solution... To anything. All actions taken are in vain. Quite frankly everything that we do as of today is simply to our immediate benefit. Nothing we do now can stand the test of time. Hence the reason why our country now sucks and all religions are wrong. With our present knowledge we cannot justify anything.

The King of Thieves,
Black

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Old Post 06-06-02 03:24 #
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Lüt
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Would you care to stop trolling one of these days?

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Old Post 06-06-02 04:58 #
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Danarchy
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Tolerence

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Old Post 06-06-02 05:53 #
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Zaldron
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the_Danarchist said:
Tolerence

There is none. Perhaps some tolerance though.

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Old Post 06-06-02 09:25 #
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Little Faith
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Black said:
...Laughter...

What a surprise... Major stuff in the news is always about war or death or hatred. Simply put you cannot get rid of neo-nazis. Racism and prejudice are innate in everyone. The fact that people hate neo-nazis for being neo-nazis is prejudice. It is all the same.

There is no such thing as censorship, salvation, forgiveness or peace. Not in the real world anyway. Heh. There is no solution... To anything. All actions taken are in vain. Quite frankly everything that we do as of today is simply to our immediate benefit. Nothing we do now can stand the test of time. Hence the reason why our country now sucks and all religions are wrong. With our present knowledge we cannot justify anything.

The King of Thieves,
Black




Once again you have an ally in me. Utter hopelessness, that's the spirit!

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Old Post 06-06-02 13:08 #
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Mad_AX666
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fodders said:
fodders' anti-islam rant


Bare in mind not all Moslems are fanatics.

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Last edited by Mad_AX666 on 06-14-02 at 20:06

Old Post 06-14-02 19:59 #
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Spike
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True, it's in our nature.
Seperate tribes of monkeys will battle for supremacy, just cuz they consider themselves different, therfore rivals and in turn, the ENEMY.

It's gonna take us a few thousand years of evolution at least to get past this. Or, at least, the aliens reveal themselves and we've got someone else to act racist towards... god help us when that day comes. The film 'Independence Day' didn't exactly do much to help that scenario...

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Old Post 06-14-02 21:11 #
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fodders
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Mad_AX666 said:


Bare in mind not all Moslems are fanatics.

Estimates of the total number of Muslims range from 0.7 to 1.2 billion worldwide and 3 to 6 million in the U.S. About 21% of all people on earth follow Islam. The religion is in a period of rapid growth.

A tiny percentage being bad = how many millions?

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 06-14-02 22:30 #
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Little Faith
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Spike said:
True, it's in our nature.
Seperate tribes of monkeys will battle for supremacy, just cuz they consider themselves different, therfore rivals and in turn, the ENEMY.

It's gonna take us a few thousand years of evolution at least to get past this. Or, at least, the aliens reveal themselves and we've got someone else to act racist towards... god help us when that day comes. The film 'Independence Day' didn't exactly do much to help that scenario...



Exactly one of the reasons why I advocate that steps to "speed evolution up" should be taken.

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Old Post 06-14-02 22:48 #
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darknation
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Uh, yeah, great. Create the master race of humans.

I wonder who tried that before...

Old Post 06-14-02 23:12 #
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Danarchy
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darknation said:
Uh, yeah, great. Create the master race of humans.

I wonder who tried that before...


Heh...sorry.

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Old Post 06-14-02 23:24 #
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Little Faith
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darknation said:
Uh, yeah, great. Create the master race of humans.

I wonder who tried that before...



No, rather pull out our "tribal nature" and replace it with something better suited for a whole global community.

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Old Post 06-14-02 23:26 #
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dsm
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fodders said:
Estimates of the total number of Muslims range from 0.7 to 1.2 billion worldwide and 3 to 6 million in the U.S. About 21% of all people on earth follow Islam. The religion is in a period of rapid growth.

A tiny percentage being bad = how many millions?


I dunno how many Christians there are, but I'm sure there are millions too. A wee tiny percentage of these are bad fundamentalists too.
Tiny percentage of bad Christians = How many millions? :-)

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Old Post 06-15-02 00:05 #
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darknation
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WTF???

Faith, you say one minute you want to speed up human evolution, next minute you want to become one giant global community when it is a FACT that small enclosed communitys evolve at far high speeds than ponderous super-communities.

"To many cooks spoil the broth"

Old Post 06-15-02 00:21 #
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pritch
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Devolve. We need to become cavemen again.

Go Fredik, I'm off to Sveeeeeeeeden.

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Old Post 06-15-02 01:02 #
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fodders
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If NUM COOKS>COOKS LET broth=SPOILED

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 06-15-02 01:02 #
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dsm
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pritch said:
Devolve. We need to become cavemen again.

Go Fredik, I'm off to Sveeeeeeeeden.


Nah, I don't wanna be like fredrik.

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Old Post 06-15-02 09:47 #
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Little Faith
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darknation said:
WTF???

Faith, you say one minute you want to speed up human evolution, next minute you want to become one giant global community when it is a FACT that small enclosed communitys evolve at far high speeds than ponderous super-communities.

"To many cooks spoil the broth"



That is exactly why the normal (natural) method of evolution is obsolete.

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Old Post 06-15-02 11:16 #
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Danarchy
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Little Faith said:
Jesus built my source port.

ROFL

Is it a love afair, mainly Jesus and your source port?

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Old Post 06-16-02 04:13 #
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GS-1719
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dsm said:

I dunno how many Christians there are, but I'm sure there are millions too. A wee tiny percentage of these are bad fundamentalists too.
Tiny percentage of bad Christians = How many millions? :-)



There aren't many Christians I know that take their faith seriously.

Old Post 06-16-02 14:47 #
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GS-1719
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fodders said:
His stupid rant


It surprising how smoothly East Timor gained independence with full western and UN backing is't it? I could go on all day about instances where the west has massacred Muslims - there is an endless list of such instances from Ariel Sharon and other Israeli PMs "committing ethinc cleansing and genocide for half a century) to Somalia, Chechnya, Milosevic and far more undocumented cases.

Old Post 06-16-02 15:04 #
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fodders
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If you read most of my anti Israeli posts you will know I support Moslem just causes, I replied about the fanatical element in the Islamic movement being bad all over the world, most of the instances you quote refer to Islamic fundamentalists trying to overthrow the lawful governments in those places.
The west does commit atrocities, the latest coming to the news are the ones in Afghanistan, they seem bad considering America is supposed to be fighting to preserve the freedoms that western civilisations profess to support, if the following info is true, I for one feel ashamed:

The Sunday Mirror claims:
AMERICAN troops cut out the tongues of Taliban prisoners and poured acid over their heads before ordering their deaths, a TV documentary claims.

The film Massacre At Mazar claims that the soldiers orchestrated the mass slaughter of al-Qaeda fighters during an uprising at the prison following the bloodiest battle of the Afghan war, at Mazar-e-Sharif.

One Northern Alliance soldier says in the film: "The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them.

"I was a witness when an American soldier broke one prisoner's neck and poured acid-like substances on others."

Another witness claims four prisoners were beaten unconscious by US soldiers, then disappeared.

He says: "They cut their hair and poured acid or something on to them. They were screaming and jumping up and down. They had a black stick and beat them."

The US and Northern Alliance have always denied claims of a massacre at the Qala-i-Janghi fortress in Mazar-e-Sharif.

The evidence of new atrocities comes after the Sunday Mirror published pictures of the horrific treatment of Taliban fighters held at another camp, Shibarghan - dubbed the Afghan Auschwitz.

The film, made by British producer Jamie Doran, and shown to the German parliament last week, also tells how 8,000 Taliban prisoners were rounded up and transported in metal containers to Shirbaghan.

A driver of one of the trucks says many prisoners died of thirst in the stifling containers.

Another witness admits to accidental fatalities when he shot holes in the side of containers to allow prisoners to breath.

He says: "They were crying for air. I hit the side with bullets to create air - and some were killed."

And two men claim they were forced to drive hundreds of Taliban into the desert where they were shot while up to 40 US soldiers looked on.

The film is based on testimonies from six witnesses, including a senior army officer. All have agreed to give evidence at any future war crimes tribunal.

Last night human rights lawyer Andrew McEntee, former chairman of Amnesty International UK, called for the allegations to be investigated.

He said: "These alleged crimes would carry a life imprisonment in many countries."

A US Army spokesman said later: "We have been asked about allegations that Taliban prisoners were executed while US special forces soldiers stood by and watched. We checked and didn't have anything to substantiate those allegations

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

Old Post 06-16-02 15:25 #
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Bunch of morons.

Sometimes I wish for some Muslim "fighters for just causes" to blow a couple of A-bombs in the heart of your cities, kill some hundreds of thousands or millions.

Old Post 06-16-02 17:15 #
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dsm
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dr_st said:
Bunch of morons.

Sometimes I wish for some Muslim "fighters for just causes" to blow a couple of A-bombs in the heart of your cities, kill some hundreds of thousands or millions.


That comment wont help making people take you serious.

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Old Post 06-16-02 17:33 #
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