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do u use tobbacco
yes i smoke
yes i chew
no dont use it, and find it offensive
no dont use it, but dont mind people who do
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Captain Red
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ahh. Touché.

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Old Post 07-29-02 00:41 #
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IMJack
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The end of the war on drugs would be disasterous for a lot of people. There's a major economy built around the drug trade, four tiers deep, and the drug-makers and dealers only make up the lowest one. The other three tiers: the cops who enforce the drug war, the prisons that incarcerate the offenders, and the specialists that rehab drug users; all are legit industries, and all depend on the continuing drug war for their livelyhood.

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Old Post 07-29-02 01:44 #
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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!


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fodders said:
70% of people on death row are there for murder, legalise murder.

More like 95%. The only other sentance I know that leads to a death penalty is Treachery.

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Old Post 07-29-02 02:00 #
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AndrewB
I would commit first degree murder and then fabricate evidence to make it look like self defense.


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IMJack said:
The end of the war on drugs would be disasterous for a lot of people. There's a major economy built around the drug trade, four tiers deep, and the drug-makers and dealers only make up the lowest one. The other three tiers: the cops who enforce the drug war, the prisons that incarcerate the offenders, and the specialists that rehab drug users; all are legit industries, and all depend on the continuing drug war for their livelyhood.
You're joking, right? For your information, the police, rehab centers, and prisons are ALL funded by taxpayers. The police will actually be able to concentrate on IMPORTANT THINGS if drugs were legalized. The prisons are OVERCROWDED. The rehab centers are BACKEDLOGGED in applications.

No, you've got to be kidding... If you're serious, then... then....

......

..then you haven't quite escaped enough from Utah.

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Old Post 07-29-02 05:24 #
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IMJack
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AndrewB seemed appalled:
For your information, the police, rehab centers, and prisons are ALL funded by taxpayers.
And a all of that tax money is committed on behalf of the drug war. If the drug war were to end tomorrow, the legislators would take that budgeted diñero and reassign it. (why put money into a dead project when there's pork barrels to feed?) If you think the rehab centers and prisons are strained now, think of how they'll function without money. Or won't function, as may be the case.

As for the cops, do you know how many hundreds of law enforcement officials do nothing but drug-war-related work? How many hundreds were hired solely for the drug war effort? No drug war means these people have no purpose. They won't simply be reassigned; their respective agencies couldn't afford to keep them on if they're no longer getting drug war funds. So they'd simply be laid off.

I'm dead serious, AndrewB. This isn't just a Utah thing, this is the entire American southwest. (Although local fucktard Senator Hatch is a key proponent of the whole thing.) The drug war is an industry that employs a lot of people. People whose training and skills might not be suitable for anything but another manufactured American crisis. No drug war, no jobs for these people. It's sick, it's sad, but it's true.

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Old Post 07-29-02 06:31 #
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JavaGuy
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'Tis true much of the economy relies simply on drugs and the drug war itself to keep going, though I still don't think it's right. If drugs where easy to get, they'd be less expensive, and the cash flow wouldn't be as great. With the way things are, people shell out a shitload of money to dealers for a gram, which in turn is passed around to other hands, eventually being tossed back into the economy when any things like clothes, food, decor for houses, and land are being bought with it. Not to mention that dealers living large still pay their bills to utility companies to keep everything going fine. After all, they can afford it. Plus, some of it goes into bribing the government, and night clubs.

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Old Post 07-29-02 06:58 #
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fodders
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the_Danarchist said:

More like 95%. The only other sentance I know that leads to a death penalty is Treachery.

I was alluding that the other 30% are innocent :P

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Old Post 07-29-02 10:40 #
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darknation
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Hah, your economy is fucked anyway. Might as well stop the war on drugs while the going is bad to see what happens.

Old Post 07-29-02 10:43 #
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Little Faith
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Legalising drugs would also be a death blow to many terrorist organizations since it would be easier to make trade embargos on them. (It's kinda hard prohibiting trade of already illegal substances).

If you don't get my point I think Sephiroth posted a thread dealing with where terrorist organizations got their funding from.

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Old Post 07-29-02 15:41 #
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Danarchy
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fodders said:
I was alluding that the other 30% are innocent :P

Oh yeah...

Personaly, I don't believe most people should be put on death row. I'm pretty sure like 80% of people who commit murders feel remorse for their actions. The only people who should be put to death are the psychotic serial killers like Manson, Bundy, Gacy, or Yates. Most others convicted for murder did it in a fit of rage. A good 20 years in the slammer should be enough punishment for them.

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Old Post 07-29-02 23:47 #
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IMJack
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Little Faith said:
Legalising drugs would also be a death blow to many terrorist organizations since it would be easier to make trade embargos on them. (It's kinda hard prohibiting trade of already illegal substances).

If you don't get my point I think Sephiroth posted a thread dealing with where terrorist organizations got their funding from.

C'mon, it's not like the US is the only place in the world where these freaks sell their drugs.

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Old Post 07-30-02 02:38 #
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AndrewB
I would commit first degree murder and then fabricate evidence to make it look like self defense.


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IMJack said:
I'm dead serious, AndrewB.
You're dead nuts. That is the most twisted and utterly despicable spin I've ever seen put on such an argument. Thankfully you're the only one I've ever heard who has such a warped point of view.

Police will never run out of work. If jobs are lost if the drug war ends, good riddance. I say screw anyone who ever helped the cause in the first place.

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Old Post 07-30-02 05:02 #
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Little Faith
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IMJack said:
C'mon, it's not like the US is the only place in the world where these freaks sell their drugs.


And it's not only USA that has a problem.

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Old Post 07-30-02 08:50 #
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Danarchy
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You people need to get me in charge of the USA so I can fix everything.

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Old Post 07-30-02 08:53 #
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TheHighestTree
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I think IMJack had some interesting points, but didn't quite consider what they meant: If the drug war were put to an end, all of those resources could be redirected to relevant causes. The prisons would become less crowded, terrorists would be cut off of a big source of income...i *******ely think legalisation of certain drugs (...WEED!) weed be beneweedficial to the weerld's weedfare.

As for smoking (not weed) i don't...that is to say i don't go out and buy any. If someone offers me a bit, I'll accept. One thing i like is a cigar (very) occasionally.

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Old Post 07-30-02 19:13 #
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Little Faith
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Agrees with TheHighestTree on all points.

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Old Post 07-30-02 20:28 #
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AndrewB
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Indeed, HighestTree has found the common-sense tinted glasses.

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Old Post 07-30-02 21:49 #
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pritch
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AndrewB said:
Indeed, HighestTree has found the common-sense tinted glasses.

I knew I left them somewhere...

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Old Post 07-30-02 23:13 #
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IMJack
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TheHighestTree said:
I think IMJack had some interesting points, but didn't quite consider what they meant: If the drug war were put to an end, all of those resources could be redirected to relevant causes.

They could. but they're not gonna be. Like I said, there's pork barrels to load up! The only "relevant causes" politicians will invest this cash in is those that buy them votes.

The prisons would become less crowded,

Not arguing with that. What I'm saying is that fewer inmates means the prisons employ fewer guards and staff than they already do. There's a golden ratio of inmates to guards that I think is around 30:1; any less is dangerous, any more is uneconomical. I know several people who work at the state pen (while holding other jobs; the state is already cheap).

terrorists would be cut off of a big source of income...

Again, the united States is not the only country in the world to buy terrorist drugs. The drug war's benifit is pretty much confined to the States, while the world drug economy is definitely not. And terrorist drugs aren't the biggest part of the drug economy in the states: most drugs are manufactured and sold by gangs and independant operators. Some drugs have to be imported (opium is the primary terr drug), but things like crack and meth are typically home-brewed.

The U.S. has a lot invested in the drug war. The high arrest numbers and prison population are proof enough to Joe Sixpack that the government is doing their jobs. These people are inflexible and loud, and would not take kindly to a bunch of enlightened-types moving to end the drug war. Remember that all this intellectual bantering on the Web doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things: a small group of outspoken intellectuals will never win against the stupid bleating flock of Average America.

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Old Post 07-31-02 00:22 #
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Little Faith
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Yeah, but we are not only talking about USA. I know that the prison thing is a specific US thing, but drugs being illegal is a kinda worldwide phenomenon.

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Old Post 07-31-02 09:42 #
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nxn
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Little Faith said:
Yeah, but we are not only talking about USA. I know that the prison thing is a specific US thing, but drugs being illegal is a kinda worldwide phenomenon.
That's not really true, I've heard of a lot of countries in which drug use is legal.

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Old Post 07-31-02 10:18 #
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pilottobombadier
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Well, personally, I think it would take a lot of balls to eliminate the drug war for personal safety reasons. You have to remember that groups such as biker gangs, and the occasional organised crime group (like the Russian mob, who are now, for the most part, either ex-KGB, or worse, ex-Spetznas) use narcotics, specifically marijuana, to fund themselves. They're gonna be pret-ty fuckin' pissed when someone cuts off their supply by creating legalisation. And the last thing anyone needs is an ex-Spetznas guy on their ass. FYI, the Spetznas is the Russian Special Forces. Today they're not neraly as scary as they were before the fall of the wall...like those guys who're now running the Russian crime syndicates.

However, I would fuckin' do it anyway, because it means more national income, if you're intelligent enough to regulate it and tax it. And in regards to cigarettes and Canada's health care, personally, I think we should DENY smokers free healthcare for all of their cigarette-related maladies. That should certainly turn the tables, I think.

And I do honestly agree, it is a disgusting habit. You smokers, you should get an ATHSMATIC'S personal point of view on the topic, you might be quite enlightened. See, when a person with athsma gets sick, more often than not they get a bronchial infection. IN other words, 9 times out of ten, we get bronchitis. And the other 1 of 10 we get something COMBINED with bronchitis.

Second-hand smoke does NOT help this in any way whatsoever. It makes it far, far more annoying (and if you've got strep throat, more painful) than it has to be. My step mom smokes, and if I'm sick and she's in the same room havin' the usual cancer stick, I have to leave the room. Either that or I decide to invest in an oxygen mask. Heh. I don't fucking think so.

So, to you smokers in Canada, live with the public smoking laws, they are there for a reason, which is that what you do can be very fucking inconsiderate.

Now, I'm not saying it's any of you guys, because I don't know you, but for the most part, us NON-smokers have been getting pretty fuckin' annoyed with having to inhale smoke coming across a restaurant from the smoking section to the non-smoking section, DESPITE ventilation, while we're enjoying, say a $15 piece of prime rib steak. That's what it comes down to. Furthermore, the laws are completely constitutional, and NOT invoking them would have been UNconstitutional because we all have the right to safety and comfort and whatnot...supposedly.

Now, personally, I don't give a shit what someone else does, so long as it doesn't inhibit me from enjoying myself. If I'm outside and people are smoking, it really doesn't bother me that much, if at all. But if I'm inside, and in an enclosed space...that's a different matter, and I think you guys can relate.

So, what it really comes down to is that smokers would not have to worry about these public-space laws if they had been smart enough to exercise some common sense and consideration (which is highly unrealistic, but hey, tough :P)

Now, onto cell phones. The studies in Japan and Europe would be correct, their phones for the mostpart use higher frequencies than ours. Also their wavebands are totally different because the use a different system, which Canada will be getting onto shortly called GSM. See, for the mostpart, our phones use 800mHz Digital, 800mhz. Analog and occasionally 1900mHz digital in the major city areasand the phones operate at 0.3 watts. Also, our population is far less dense than in either Europe or Japan, and we have less cellphone users here. Anyway, their phones operate at GSM800mHz and GSM1900 mHz, but in Europe and Japan 1900mHz. is generally the mainstay, unlike here, where the mainstay signal frequencies is 800mHz. So, they have more users trotting around using phones, both in number and in ratios, and they generally use higher frequencies. So of course their results are going to differ from ours.

Now, in regards to the cellphone jammers, those are illegal in Canada, because, as said earlier, they inhibit police radar...although most cops use the laser now, so I dunno...either way, cops here don't like that very much at all. However, it would certainly be nice to have one, yes.

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Old Post 07-31-02 16:49 #
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Submerge
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orion said:

why do you think people would be buying drugs from drug dealers? What would be stopping major companies from distributing drugs in stores like they are with alcohol and ci's?



God, I can see it now.

"Try Newport Cocaine! Goes down nice and smooth"

"Marlboro Marijuana, Made only in the mountains of colombia for maximum flavor!"

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Old Post 07-31-02 17:32 #
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IMJack
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Off-topic, this is a scenario I've been planning to write for some time now:

Ever read Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six? There's this cult/environmentalist group that's engineering a virus that will wipe out the human race. They've got a way to deliver it worldwide and everything.

Let's say Big Tobacco takes this idea and engineers a virus that will wipe out the marijuana plant and make its seeds inviable, and not affect any other plant or animal. They release it worldwide and watch with glee as the common hemp plant goes extinct.

So you've got the world's stoner population desperate for a hit. Here comes Big Tobacco, announcing that they were able to salvage a great deal of mary-jane and protect it from the virus. In actuality, they have their own engineered pot that resists the virus. Incidently, this new pot also naturally produces enough nicotine to make tobacco look like SweeTarts in comparison. And it's available legally in a store near you at the low, low price of Too Damn Much.

Thoughts? This might actually work if genetic engineering advances far enough. I think it would also create a black market or real pot even deeper than the current one (and opposition from increasingly powerful and hostile corps). The ensuing riots would be fun to watch, anyway. :)

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Old Post 07-31-02 20:13 #
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nxn
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Submerge said:


God, I can see it now.

"Try Newport Cocaine! Goes down nice and smooth"

"Marlboro Marijuana, Made only in the mountains of colombia for maximum flavor!"


Yup, imagine the promotion possibilities "Buy two and get a free sleek looking needle!!"
It would make good buisness.

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Old Post 07-31-02 22:46 #
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fodders
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You can laugh, I remember ads saying cigs were good for you. And "Navy Cut" cigs were actually shorter so sailors could cup them in their hands out of the storms and gales.
Try totally banning mary j, look at Colombia and how many Government and Judiciary have been killed since 1980s

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Old Post 08-01-02 01:19 #
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