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wesleyjohnson
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This started as a listing of problem doors in FreeDoom. I do not think these are because I used Legacy. It is more likely that the level designer used a mouse to move forward rather than keyboard walk and run.
The mouse can be set to unrealistic speeds. Legacy limits the player to a reasonable walk and run speed.

I have ended up including other problems such as unreachable rooms, because the alternative was to start another thread.

Only found 1 voodoo doll use that stops play, all others are unnoticed when playing with Legacy. I did not even notice that they were there until I looked hard with a level editor.

MAP02
Has voodoo doll, but it does not stop play if it does not work (button #372).
There are alternative buttons on the square console that will also raise the platforms outside ( #860..#863 ) .

MAP04
Behind RED door, after the crushers, has three roundish rooms
(sectors 69, 70, 71) where the floor drops in each room to reveal an opening to the next room (by trip line and by push button). In the 3rd room there is a button that will drop the floor of the previous room, and 2nd room has button that drops floor of 1st room, and if you retrace back to the 1st room very quickly it can be made to drop very deeply and reveal a hidden room.
Played without cheating or exploits, it is impossible to get to the hidden room.
1. Only know the hidden room is there if you use an editor or cheat.
So the only player who would be repeatedly trying to reach this room, must have cheated to find out it was there. It can not be seen otherwise.
2. linedef across 3rd room triggers an action that defeats attempts to get around to 2nd room quickly. This alone is responsible for more failed attempts than anything else. This linedef is actually unnecessary as the button the player is walking towards will do same action if the design would only let the player get to it first.
3. My Slow door control in Legacy does not fix this, as all the floors slow too.
4. Have never managed to get to that hidden room, even after more that 15 attempts. I can cheat and get there but that is not the point.
5. Just discovered that you actually reach the room if you hit the wall way below the switch (in middle room) instead of waiting for floor to come back up to the switch. But that seems like cheating too. Also a player would not be doing such a thing unless they were using it as a cheat to get to the hidden room, which at that point they should not know yet that it is there.

I do not know what to do to fix this that

MAP05
Linedef at back of niche (#866) cannot be activated even after cheating and knowing where it is. Thus cannot get to hidden switch to lower plasma gun. Have to use editor and cheat to even find the switch.
- As a wild guess I took a shot at it, and that works. As a player I would not be shooting all walls to see if one activates a door. I find using a noclip cheat to be less distasteful and uses up less ammo.
- Opinion: I do not consider shooting an innocent wall a reasonable way to open a door on the other side of the map. If it was a visible switch that was otherwise unapproachable, then maybe. Wasting ammo shooting at random walls is a variation of "learn by dying".


MAP10
Platform delay too short. Triggered by switch high on wall between the crates, then expected to weave around the crates and get to silver lift that takes you to upper walkway. Cannot do it using keyboard walk and run. Recommend delay x2.

In large foyer, the computer terminal is hard to reach for a non-jumper, for some reason is stuck back in corner of table instead of being near one of the table edges. I end up jumping up on table to reach it, something a non-jumping port cannot do. I might not be such a problem for someone who knows that the terminal is a switch, but what about the new player who does not even know the switch and lift exist?? Delay is too short to keyboard run to get to the lift. Using a delay of x1.2 I can reach the lift after about 6 tries. Recommend changing delay by x1.5 at least. Due to the silver lift against silver background, the lift itself is not visible when activated. This is one of those lifts that players will not find without using a cheat-sheet.

There is a new room with revenants in corridor leading to the large foyer. Went in to push switch and found that there is no way out, as door does not respond from inside.
I failed to get this switch to work even after several tries and using a level editor to cheat. This may be some deliberate elaborate trap, but it just makes the level seem broken.

I really think this level is broken in several ways, and may be unfinished.

GIT reports that switch got moved, but I have not seen this yet. Other unspecified changes reported.

MAP13
Voodoo doll door does not work for Legacy. There is no alternative work around so this is the one place that it really stops play. The fast workaround is to noclip and go through door, but that leaves many monsters unkilled. The best workaround is to noclip and go to the trigger corridor, un-noclip and walk through it triggering the linedefs, noclip again and go back to pool, un-noclip again.

Cannot not exit this level no matter what cheats are used.
1. End up with yellow key and no place to use it. Cannot get past flaming barrels. Level seems fatally broken.
2. End up with red key and stuck in black room with no exit.
Level seems fatally broken.

Cheating with level editor, and using noclip, does not solve this level.
[ Update 4/5/2009: I have submitted a patch to Legacy giving it Voodoo dolls. With the patch applied, this voodoo door now works. On the other side, there is now another engine reported to NOT have voodoo dolls. ]

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 07-01-09 at 04:27

Old Post 04-22-09 20:15 #
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myk
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5. Just discovered that you actually reach the room if you hit the wall way below the switch (in middle room) instead of waiting for floor to come back up to the switch. But that seems like cheating too. Also a player would not be doing such a thing unless they were using it as a cheat to get to the hidden room, which at that point they should not know yet that it is there.
While there may be another way, that's an exploit. A cheat, on the other hand, is breaking the rules of the game, such as by applying an external hack or by using one of the internally defined cheats. Exploits happen when unforeseen mechanics enable players to find shortcuts or advantages. Strafe running, the silent BFG, item grabs, "glides" and monsters opening locked doors are other such exploits. You can call some of these map bugs, but even then some designers like to keep them, even after they know about them if they feel they add to the fun.

Old Post 04-22-09 21:03 #
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wesleyjohnson
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MAP18
Switch in outhouse has too short delay (linedef #1163). Using keyboard RUN, have tried 20 times without success to reach that door. It seems that there is a extra linedef at the outhouse that shuts the door, just to annoy the player more. I do not even try anymore, I just cheat my way through the door. Recommend extend delay by x1.5. There is no alternative for players who cannot do this, it is a play stopper.

This door was the prime reason I added a door delay control to Legacy.
I can play this level using x1.5, but I would prefer the door delay was x2 because I can see new players giving up on this.

GIT reports that switch got changed to slow door, but I have not seen this yet.

MAP20
Has voodoo doll which I did not even notice. It seems to just control some lights, does not stop play for Legacy.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 07-01-09 at 04:30

Old Post 04-22-09 21:04 #
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myk
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If anything comes of this, it could be a set of demos showing the basic routes of the levels.

Old Post 04-22-09 21:06 #
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wesleyjohnson
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MAP23
Level seems unfinished.

Secret sector (#23) is not accessible, even using level editor to cheat.

Have seen this level before, where wall (#447) was a door that opened late in the play. (I never did figure out what opened the door either, which annoyed me no end.)
Sector #117 and surrounding area is inaccessible.
Sector #115 and surrounding area is inaccessible. Is high up with objects and secret area, but no way to reach it.
Teleport exit #149 is inaccessible.

Have no idea what to say about the rooms behind the blue door.
Seems there ought to be a way to get behind those bars to the circular stairs, but I think this was one of those things that was left unfinished because they had to ship. It depends whether you are trying to match some previous implementation of this level, or finishing unfinished work.

Linedef #2528, to raise red barrier. It must operate very fast as I have never seen that barrier up, even after using editor to discover the switch. Objects behind it are inaccessible.
I suspect this is broke. Cannot tell if those objects are necessary to finish level and I have had to cheat every time at the exit.
I would not expect anyone to discover this switch without a cheat-sheet, and cannot believe they would discover what it did.

Linedef #1661, square box teleports to secret area. Is difficult to reach even with jumping. I suspect with non-jumping port this is impossible to reach.

Successful exit, without cheating, seems impossible. There must be an invulnerable sphere involved but I have not found it. Must use GOD cheat and walk through the lava.
( And telefraging exploding barrels too. Is this exit deliberating designed to kill the player or am I mistaken ).

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 06-05-09 at 03:59

Old Post 04-22-09 21:17 #
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wesleyjohnson
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MAP25
Sector #685 and area is inaccessible. That area contains an alt exit, objects, a puzzle, and deathmatch starts. I have spent hours trying to get into that area, and after all that I do not really want to hear that I am not supposed to get in there. Using a level editor it seems that it should be possible, but it is not clear, so I try and try again.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 04-22-09 at 21:58

Old Post 04-22-09 21:21 #
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wesleyjohnson
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MAP31, wolfenstein
Cannot get out of castle using prboom (no-jumping). With Legacy I just jumped out any window.
Level seems incomplete, there are many hidden niches, and other areas that are not accessible.

GIT reports many changes to this level.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 07-01-09 at 04:25

Old Post 04-22-09 21:23 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Most level designers do not want to change anything they spent time creating, but there are alternatives that will make the levels playable, and actually solvable by the average player.

1. Increase delays on problem doors and lifts.
Give the player a chance to discover where the thing is before they run for the cheat-sheets. Some of us play using keyboard walk and run, and we cannot achieve the same speeds as a mouse running player (as prboom does it).

2. Create an alternative path for average players. Can be much more tedious and have a long path, but at least the average player gets the satisfaction of solving the level without using cheats or cheat-sheets.
Customer satisfaction for the most customers is probably the most important target to having a successful project.

3. A switch near the exit of game that simplifies some puzzles. It can move some lifts, expose a switch that is closer to the problem door, or otherwise modify the puzzle to expose a slightly easier solution.

4. Hints in the game. Another area of the same level with another similar acting platform or door, but one that can be seen and solved much more easily, will give the player the hint that is needed.

5. Add an intermediate switch. A player with the speed and dexterity can go for the difficult, but ego satisfying solution. A slower player would be able to go for the intermediate switch. The intermediate switch would give an easier solution. It could stay available longer, or permanently. It could provide a longer delay. It could be closer to the original switch, it could be closer to the lift or door.

6. Add an overriding switch. The original switch would also permanently open a panel over an overriding switch, which could be located anywhere in the area that can already be reached by the player. The overriding switch would override the timing delays, by operating the difficult item with a very long delay, or by permanently opening the door, or opening a bypass of the door or lift, or by exposing a third switch located close by the difficult lift or door.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 04-25-09 at 22:10

Old Post 04-22-09 21:52 #
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Catoptromancy
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Many maps have been fixed. This is absolute latest build.
Check the changelog for exactly what maps have been fixed.

http://free.doomers.org/
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/freedoom.git/log/

You can edit/fix maps to your liking and they will probably be accepted.

Old Post 04-23-09 03:06 #
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wesleyjohnson
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MAP01 has several problem linedefs. In Legacy this shows as a rectangle in the distance (next to the inaccessible building) that displays HOM.
Editors, such as Zeth and yadex, are showing some problem with the following linedefs, highlighting in red an upper texture in the sidedef.

Linedef #1756, #1758, #1759, have the upper texture in a sidedef highlighted in red. I assume this is a problem the editor has detected.

Linedef #1757 faces away from the viewer, without a texture on sidedef2

Sector #261 has sky for floor, and is the center of the above Linedefs.

Linedefs #561, #651, #559, #625, #558 also are showing problems, such as sidedef fields highlighted in red.

I cannot see the effects using prboom, but that only means that it is
better at covering up these particular map defects.

[UPDATE] The UDS and Boom spec both describe having HOM as the effect of using F_SKY1 as a floor flat.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 05-18-09 at 18:12

Old Post 05-11-09 19:44 #
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wesleyjohnson
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MAP29 has duplicate player5 start position. This shows as thing 4001.
The player6 start position (4002) appears to be missing.

I was forced to restricted Voodoo dolls to only player1 start positions because of this. Otherwise, this created a voodoo doll right in the path to the transporter. Attempting to shoot the voodoo doll out of the way pushes it into the transporter. Following it caused a voodoo doll telefrag which caused an engine crash.

GIT reports changed a player5 to player6.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 07-01-09 at 04:19

Old Post 05-11-09 19:51 #
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wesleyjohnson
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I assume the font used for 'Health' is in the wad. The "3" and the "8" are hard to distinguish. I am repeatedly having to stop to peer at that first digit to see if I am at "80" or "30" health. Then I just have to guess, or look at the face (If I remember). The "8" could use a few more dots around the middle to fill in that gap that makes it look like a "3".

Old Post 05-11-09 20:10 #
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Jon
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wesleyjohnson said:
MAP01 has several problem linedefs. In Legacy this shows as a rectangle in the distance (next to the inaccessible building) that displays HOM.
Editors, such as Zeth and yadex, are showing some problem with the following linedefs, highlighting in red an upper texture in the sidedef.

Linedef #1756, #1758, #1759, have the upper texture in a sidedef highlighted in red. I assume this is a problem the editor has detected.



That probably means there isn't an upper texture on the sidedef. This is normally a mistake, except when


wesleyjohnson said:
Sector #261 has sky for floor, and is the center of the above Linedefs.


in which case vanilla doom draws the sky background in the upper region of the sector when the sidedef textures are omitted. Or that's for F_SKY1 on ceiling rather than floor.


I cannot see the effects using prboom, but that only means that it is
better at covering up these particular map defects.



I'm fairly sure that this effect has existed since vanilla doom and has been preserved in boom and prboom, but not in Legacy. MAP01 cannot be played in vanilla doom due to other boom features, but it should be easy for someone to create a demo PWAD with just the omitted upper sidedef texture to prove this.




[UPDATE] The UDS and Boom spec both describe having HOM as the effect of using F_SKY1 as a floor flat.



If the player's POV is below the floor in question. Is that the case for the HOM you observe?

Old Post 05-20-09 11:52 #
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Jon
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wesleyjohnson said:
MAP29 has duplicate player5 start position. This shows as thing 4001.
The player6 start position (4002) appears to be missing.

I was forced to restricted Voodoo dolls to only player1 start positions because of this. Otherwise, this created a voodoo doll right in the path to the transporter. Attempting to shoot the voodoo doll out of the way pushes it into the transporter. Following it caused a voodoo doll telefrag which caused an engine crash.



I think I wrote this in another thread but what *Is* a player 5 start position? Doom had 4 players, and I don't recall Boom extending this. It sounds like a thing ID is clashing between Legacy and something else, possibly another non-boom thing, an editor artifact or zdoom or whatever.

edit: ok seems boom did add 5-8 players with thing ids 4001-4004. Pre boom 2.01 4001 was a wind controller. Does anyone know if there is a reason for there to be two player5s on that map: are there two of players 1-4? IT might be that there are intentional voodoo dolls for all players.

Last edited by Jon on 05-20-09 at 12:01

Old Post 05-20-09 11:55 #
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boris
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Jon said:

edit: ok seems boom did add 5-8 players with thing ids 4001-4004. Pre boom 2.01 4001 was a wind controller. Does anyone know if there is a reason for there to be two player5s on that map: are there two of players 1-4? IT might be that there are intentional voodoo dolls for all players.


It's probably a mistake by the map author. He probably wanted to add player 5-8 starting positions south of the player 1-4 positions, but added start 5 twice. There are things with number 4001, 4003 and 4004, with 4002 missing.

Old Post 05-20-09 14:03 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Level 1, HOM on rim wall next to left of building visible from balcony.

It think the balcony is close to the level of the rim wall in the distance. If it was not for the HOM, the sector that causes it would not even be visible at all. It may be visible from the building, but players cannot get there.

There seem to be many defects in the rim wall around this distant building. The whole level seems to have left over experiments in it.

I think it just needs to be cleaned up by someone who knows what that
sky for floor was trying to do. If it was not for the HOM, that sector would not even be visible to any player. Until this is done, I should not be trying to fix any problems seen by Legacy.

Old Post 06-05-09 03:52 #
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wesleyjohnson
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I do not trust my understanding of the levels enough to try fixing them
myself. I have tried a few experiments with a level editor, and have not had success with getting a wad. I must need some more tools. The how-to on editing a level seem to indicate this.

It would be better at this time to have an experienced level designer, fix the levels in the style of the Freedoom project, which they, I assume would know, and which I do not know, I assume.

I hate having to assume. ( But it is also so hard to get customers/forum members/others to deal with things, even with direct questions ). Assumptions just lead to work that gets thrown away.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 06-08-09 at 22:56

Old Post 06-05-09 04:15 #
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wesleyjohnson
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To make this clear, I have tested the doors using Legacy and PrBoom.
The door delays seen by Legacy are close to that seen by PrBoom. I have not detected any difference. Because of this I must assume that Legacy must be correctly implementing the Boom door delays.

Thus the problems that I (and others) have playing the levels, where you must push a button and frantically dash to another location, are REAL problems in the wad design and are NOT a problem with playing the wad on Legacy.
I have tried playing FreeDoom using PrBoom and have seen the same problems.

Old Post 06-05-09 04:22 #
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Catoptromancy
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Map04???? Please make a demo in prboom of whatever you are talking about. Use an official freedoom release and state freedoom version.

Map05 is being fixed by author sometime.
Map10, 13, and 31 no longer apply.
Switch in map18 is fixed.
Working on removing all extra/duplicate player starts from all maps.

Last edited by Catoptromancy on 06-25-09 at 08:56

Old Post 06-24-09 05:46 #
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wesleyjohnson
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MAP04
Have edited original post to give more information. I double-checked the room and the problem and they are correct.

MAP10,MAP13, etc.
I know these got updated in the previous release, but those changes did not remove nor even address these problems. I have checked the latest release and that only removed some music and sounds.
GIT changes are so brief that it is impossible to tell what got changed or whether it even address any of these problems. Only 2 or 3 have any kind of usable description of the change.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 07-01-09 at 04:21

Old Post 07-01-09 04:04 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Missing sprites.

There are still some sprites missing. They appear as a FreeDoom missing sprite box. I do not remember seeing them in any of the FreeDoom levels but if you play GRAY.WAD and BIOWAR.WAD they show up all over the place.

Flaming skull still has missing sprites in its death sequence.

Old Post 07-01-09 04:10 #
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Catoptromancy
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wesleyjohnson said:

MAP10, etc.
I know these got updated in the previous release, but those changes did not remove nor even address these problems.


http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1571/doom01.png
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1391/doom02.png



wesleyjohnson said:
GIT changes are so brief that it is impossible to tell what got changed or whether it even address any of these problems. Only 2 or 3 have any kind of usable description of the change.


http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/freedoom.git/log/

"2009-06-08 map10: move the switch people keep complaining about"
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/fr...1da24e6239b5d63


I am guessing you got the latest release and not the daily builds.

"2009-06-15 ChangeLog/VERSION: Update for 0.6.4 release.v0.6.4"
+Freedoom 0.6.4. Removing illegally copied music from the repository.
+
+All of metabolist's files are removed, there are no further changes in
+this release
(holding off all other changes until some higher number).

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/fr...e62c4ebc7fabbe9


Yes map13 is still a mess.
Map04 is just a really good secret, maybe ill swap invisibility with a soulsphere. Also move the computer map to another secret, so people will be able to see the hard to get to secret.

Map23 should now be exitable, probably still some bugs.
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/fr...0b437579e233021

Last edited by Catoptromancy on 07-04-09 at 02:58

Old Post 07-01-09 04:59 #
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wesleyjohnson
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I only expected that these problems might be considered sometime, eventually, and with some that people will prefer not to change anything. I wasn't expecting any instant reaction.

I have started, for my own purposes, an extensive modification of MAP13. If you don't have someone else working on it you may want to consider my version. I have much work before it can be sent to anyone.
Description of it appears in another post in map changes thread.

MAP04, if an experienced player who knows where the secret is cannot succeed in 15 tries, it is worse than "just a good secret". Something as simple as taking out a couple of those automatic trip lines would help. Let the player get to the button and press it (or not press it) themselves ! What hurts is having to take a circuitous route to avoid a trip line that cannot even be seen.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 07-06-09 at 01:25

Old Post 07-06-09 01:13 #
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Catoptromancy
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wesleyjohnson said:
MAP23
Successful exit, without cheating, seems impossible.



http://users.coffeenet.org/cato/fre...d-064-map23.lmp


wesleyjohnson said:
MAP31, wolfenstein
Cannot get out of castle using prboom (no-jumping).



http://users.coffeenet.org/cato/fre...d-064-map31.lmp


Both maps are still considered broken and have been fixed(mostly) already, I only took the challenge.
Map31 uses an exploit.
The only possible way I could think of to beat map23 was extremely careful planning using a map editor, my route bypasses most of the map.

Last edited by Catoptromancy on 07-11-09 at 09:23

Old Post 07-06-09 13:16 #
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Amarande
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wesleyjohnson said:

MAP05
Linedef at back of niche (#866) cannot be activated even after cheating and knowing where it is. Thus cannot get to hidden switch to lower plasma gun. Have to use editor and cheat to even find the switch.
- As a wild guess I took a shot at it, and that works. As a player I would not be shooting all walls to see if one activates a door. I find using a noclip cheat to be less distasteful and uses up less ammo.
- Opinion: I do not consider shooting an innocent wall a reasonable way to open a door on the other side of the map. If it was a visible switch that was otherwise unapproachable, then maybe. Wasting ammo shooting at random walls is a variation of "learn by dying".



I thought about this for some time, and have decided that this concern is rather valid. As such, in the fixed version of map05 I had committed shortly ago as of this post, I've changed this switch to a standard 23 S1 lower floor to lowest switch (it's also now on the leading linedef of the niche instead of the rear one).

I've also made this niche (as well as the one with the switch teleporter to the "DOOM" secret) more clearly different from the normal techlamp niches by raising their lighting to 200 (it had been intended all along for these two niches to be distinct by lighting, having sector type 8 instead of type 3 like all the other techlamp niches in the slime tunnels have, but this failed to be sufficiently noticeable due to the fact that the light levels between the niches and adjacent sectors were too close to allow for sufficient pulsation).

Finally, I've made the slime west of the bridge in the outdoor area near start (sectors 1 and 2) less painful (10% instead of the former 20%).

Old Post 07-13-09 03:58 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Registered: 04-09


MAP18
Changes have improved the outhouse-wallswitch-door thing.
When I tried it now, it took me 5 tries instead of the
usual 20 tries to get through those doors.
A suggestion: Put the outhouse on the other side of
the door, just so the player can see the wall-switch open and close
when they step back out of the outhouse.

Old Post 07-22-09 03:38 #
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Catoptromancy
Forum Regular


Posts: 990
Registered: 08-06


Its slow enough to walk, not run to both the switch and door. The area is very confined only 2 possible areas player can be in. It shouldnt take long to find switch, especially if they have their sound on or follow the sound.

Old Post 07-22-09 05:49 #
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wesleyjohnson
Senior Member


Posts: 1032
Registered: 04-09


MAP05
I looked at the new level in the daily build. They light change in the niche is visible, but I would not take it as signifying anything, like it is a hidden switch. It looks like any other ambiance effect (which I like, all light levels should not be the same). It still leaves the player randomly wandering pushing things. That the switch is far from the area that the player would start trying random pushing, and there is no feedback that the player found the switch (not that I noticed). Even if they hit it, they do not know how. The next time they play they still do not know where the switch is at.
I can testify to that. I finally resorted to using an editor to
figure how it happened the one time, as I could not do it again no matter what I did. It had to be one of the monsters
shooting at me and hitting the niche.
Sorry, .. but at least I don't have to shoot it, thanks for that.

Suggestion: Put something in the back or side of the niche, like a little inset with a different texture. Something that looks like it could trigger something. Just an idea. I am using a similar thing in map13 where I do not want to use a real switch. I like to use the blue or red texture, but any odd texture would be a visible clue.
Even a little 8x8 odd thing can be noticed and investigated by the player.

Old Post 08-07-09 23:12 #
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