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Catoptromancy
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Dont have it anymore. But there was tons of VPO. It is better to just make all new maps.

Old Post 09-15-10 21:33 #
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Z0k
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Posts: 114
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Just wondering... What its the sector, linedef, vertice limits on vanilla?

because my maps are 100% vanilla but i think the sector limite would be a problem, but i cant remember if that was true, i remember something that i read about doom have some sector, linedef, vertice limits

Old Post 09-16-10 04:21 #
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Csonicgo


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I think the consensus was that Freedoom would conform to the Boom standard.

Old Post 09-16-10 16:31 #
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Catoptromancy
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Csonicgo said:
I think the consensus was that Freedoom would conform to the Boom standard.



Catoptromancy said:
I wouldnt mind a vanilla-freedoom iwad.

Old Post 09-16-10 18:08 #
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NiGHTMARE
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You could just go through the idgames archive and use vanilla-compatible levels from that which grant permission for re-use...

Old Post 09-16-10 18:41 #
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Csonicgo


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As long as it doesn't replace the main project...

Old Post 09-16-10 23:55 #
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hex11
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Seems to me like the "ultimate" vanilla Doom IWAD is currently in the making:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mo...med-appearance/

Maybe it's worth asking the mappers if they're cool with the idea of releasing their stuff in a freedoom-vanilla fork...

Old Post 03-31-11 15:03 #
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Mithran Denizen
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Still seems kind of pointless, especially considering that Freedoom is still missing a good number of maps even with the mapping incentive of Boom compatible features.

When (or if?) the DTWiD project is finished, people are free to run it with Freedoom anyway, so the whole thing would just be duplication of work and probably a waste of time.

Old Post 03-31-11 18:34 #
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hex11
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I don't think it would be a waste of time, for several reasons...

a) It would require a very tiny, insignificant effort to package up a vanilla-freedoom IWAD that consists of the freedoom base texture, sprites, etc. and the DTWID maps (plus any musics and textures they add).

b) vanilla-freedoom can directly run in all source ports, even ones that don't yet exist today

c) It's the ideal complement to Chocolate Doom, and can be packaged with it, like for example how that Debian dude is trying to do.

d) Chocolate Doom is historically significant, and combining it with a set of maps that try to mimic id's mindset at the time makes it all that much more interesting.

e) A large number of contemporary mappers don't like to constrain themselves to vanilla limits, so there's plenty of talent available for finishing the Boom-engine IWAD.

Old Post 03-31-11 20:01 #
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Cire
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Maybe we could get John Romero to release the original Doom map sources under the GPL like he did with the Quake map sources in 2006? Then a Freedoom version with the original vanilla maps could be made since the Modified BSD license that Freedoom uses is GPL compatible. It would seem resonable of him to release them as Doom is older than Quake anyway.

Old Post 03-31-11 21:07 #
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wesleyjohnson
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All these projects suffer from dwindling resources and personal to carry out the work.

Try taking the existing freedoom levels and replacing, or otherwise fixing the places where Boom features exist.
You might even give the original author a chance to submit a vanilla
version of their level first. This would give you a chance of completing this.

Don't the vanilla doom ports pretty much ignore the Boom features. Are there that many places where Boom features stop play in vanilla ports (besides VPO) ?

VPO's can be more difficult and may require a more heavy editing hand to eliminate. But it is no worse trying to reduce an existing level than it is making a new one that overruns the limits.

To fix limit overruns, mostly need to remove decorative sectors and lines, throw in some void walls to give the BSP a chance to prune.

Experiment on a couple levels, and see how long it takes, and how much has to be chopped.

After that you could replace levels as you wish, just like any other wad project.

Last edited by wesleyjohnson on 03-31-11 at 21:36

Old Post 03-31-11 21:18 #
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chungy
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Cire said:
Maybe we could get John Romero to release the original Doom map sources under the GPL like he did with the Quake map sources in 2006? Then a Freedoom version with the original vanilla maps could be made since the Modified BSD license that Freedoom uses is GPL compatible. It would seem resonable of him to release them as Doom is older than Quake anyway.


This would be excellent, though I doubt John Romero is legally able to release the maps as such ... plus, even better would be to get the maps released under the same license as Freedoom itself.

I was actually thinking about this again, and possibly having another target for Freedoom to build a totally vanilla compatible IWAD (whoever provides the maps), though this might just add more complication...

Old Post 03-31-11 22:34 #
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Cire
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Ah... to bad if that's the case. I really hope someone can release the Doom map sources, preferably under Freedoom's license as you said. It's been my dream. Could you explain why you think John wouldn't be legally able to do so?

Old Post 03-31-11 22:49 #
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chungy
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Simply that the maps are probably owned wholly by id Software. Though if you said that about Quake before 2006, I'd have said the same thing about them... I'm just not educated on who owns the maps :P

Old Post 03-31-11 22:53 #
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Cire
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OK, thanks for reply! :) Should I try to make contact with Romero with e-mail and ask him about it?

Old Post 03-31-11 22:59 #
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chungy
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Couldn't hurt! :)

Old Post 03-31-11 23:00 #
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Cire
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E-mail sent to him. Will keep you updated when I recieve an answer.
Best Regards

Old Post 03-31-11 23:08 #
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wesleyjohnson
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There is an id games site selling downloads of the games. I doubt they would release them.

Old Post 04-05-11 22:22 #
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hex11
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Apparently though, Quake level src was released by John Romero some time ago? (the original map files that get processed via bsp)

Sorry I don't know any details because I don't play or follow Quake stuff...

Still, even if he can't do it, there is still DTWID, or other vanilla Doom levels from the idgames archive.

Old Post 04-06-11 00:35 #
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Mithran Denizen
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Or people could just make some vanilla maps for the project if there were really any demand for it. Without the restrictions of mapping style imposed by a project like DTWiD, simple vanilla maps don't take long to make these days. I can bang one off in an afternoon, if I'm inclined.

Old Post 04-06-11 00:43 #
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hex11
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Is Chocolate Doom not essentially a tribute to the original game, limitations and all?

Why even bother with something like that now that there is prboom, zdoom, doomsday?...

That's the same reason why the old mapping style matters. That's why DTWID is relevant, and why it would be so cool if Romero did pull off another miracle.

But if everything else fails, at least there is still this:
idgames/levels/doom/megawads/wd12.zip

Old Post 04-06-11 02:56 #
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fraggle
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hex11 said:
But if everything else fails, at least there is still this:
idgames/levels/doom/megawads/wd12.zip



code:
* Copyright / Permissions * I don`t want from you anything exept credits))..
Fails to grant any rights under the Berne convention. This is not a free software license.

A shame because it would be nice to have a freely-licensed (like Freedoom) Vanilla-compatible IWAD so that Chocolate Doom can get into Debian main.

Old Post 04-07-11 15:48 #
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hex11
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Maybe we're reading that differently, but it sounds to me like he is giving permission to do anything you want with his work, so long as you give proper credit. That's very similar to the standard BSD license, right?

But if for some reason Debian won't accept it without a "standard" open source license blurb, then maybe whoever is in charge of Freedom releases can contact him. It looks like he has posted here recently (a couple months ago):
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/members/Wraith/
So the email address should still be valid also.

Old Post 04-07-11 16:53 #
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Grazza
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hex11 said:
Maybe we're reading that differently, but it sounds to me like he is giving permission to do anything you want with his work, so long as you give proper credit.
No, the way copyrights work is that all rights are withheld unless they are specifically granted. The wording has to make the granting of rights totally clear.

For instance, all those wads you see in the archive where someone has replaced the standard permissions text with something like "Fuck copyrights, I don't give a shit!" are unintentionally withholding all rights.

Old Post 04-07-11 20:09 #
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Gez
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hex11 said:
But if for some reason Debian won't accept it without a "standard" open source license blurb, then maybe whoever is in charge of Freedom releases can contact him. It looks like he has posted here recently (a couple months ago):
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/members/Wraith/
So the email address should still be valid also.


Not necessarily the same Wraith...

Old Post 04-07-11 20:46 #
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hex11
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Grazza said:
No, the way copyrights work is that all rights are withheld unless they are specifically granted. The wording has to make the granting of rights totally clear.



So all he has to do is change the text to say "You can do whatever you want with this, just give me credit." and that's it?

Old Post 04-07-11 21:04 #
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hex11
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Gez said:

Not necessarily the same Wraith...



His email address is the same one as listed in the txt file, and he's got some threads about that wad and others he made.

Unless some impostor took over his email account and created a doomworld account, in the hopes of tricking Freedoom project several years later. :)

Old Post 04-07-11 21:10 #
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wesleyjohnson
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Sorry, this is reply to first page issues.

Without some style to hold it together it would be no better than a collection of PWAD off a Doom wad CD. There are plenty of those already.
Any level made in an afternoon (or even a week) is going to be of that quality. Quality levels take weeks and months of tweaking them, removing ideas that did not work, and finding all the HOM, mismatched textures, and even realizing what the best gameplay features were in the level and enhancing them.
That is why I think starting with levels that already have all that work in them will get better results and some chance of have a wad in a couple of years.

After all these years we are still missing a level in FreeDoom and some of the sprites are still white squares that say FreeDoom.

Old Post 04-07-11 21:28 #
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fraggle
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Grazza said:
No, the way copyrights work is that all rights are withheld unless they are specifically granted. The wording has to make the granting of rights totally clear.

For instance, all those wads you see in the archive where someone has replaced the standard permissions text with something like "Fuck copyrights, I don't give a shit!" are unintentionally withholding all rights.

Correct, although funnily enough, the WTFPL is apparently a perfectly valid free software license.

Old Post 04-08-11 15:06 #
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jute
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Perhaps some sort of time-limited community project, a la 32in24, with the aim of making low-detail vanilla maps to be used with Freedoom would help. There would be no confusion about rights granted, and even a handful of submissions would be very helpful. And of course just because the maps are vanilla doesn't mean they can't also be included in the Boom-compatible Freedoom.

I'm aware that an early 32in24 had a single-player theme and didn't get many submissions, but perhaps emphasizing the low-detail classic style would help; either way, that particular 32in24 still netted 7 maps, a number which would help Freedoom immensely.

Old Post 04-08-11 15:47 #
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